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I understand you are a JLo fan and want to see him do well on the Duc. However, if JLo is as great a rider as some on this forum have said he is then rapidly adapting to a new bike or tires should be within his skillset as a great rider. I dont think JLo can adapt, and hence why he is pulling a Rossi and hoping Ducati will building a Yamaha.

As far as Gigi sorting out the Ducati turning issue, he has been at Ducati now for 3 years and still no real solution for that issue. Gigi spent 2 years focusing on aerodynamics vs the chassis or power delivery, or at least it seems to me. Maybe Jorge's input isnt what Ducati needs, and instead they should focus on listening to Dovi's input and experience....

At 13.5 million dollars a year, JLo can't complain he just has to get to work and adapt (a new chassis isnt coming in 2017 for Ducati)...and if he can't adapt then he needs to admit it to himself jump ship and let Ducati find a young hungry riders that will work and learn and adapt and work for 1 million a year like Miller....or maybe B.Binder...



Actually, like my username suggests I'm a Yamaha fan, and an admirer of all the riders on the grid. They're all at a level that I could only dream of, so I'm not compelled to mock or slag off any of their riding skills.
Perhaps you're amazing and slipped through the net when it came to getting a MotoGP ride?
Perhaps you're just a keyboard jockey who happens to dislike a rider, so takes every opportunity to snipe at him?
If you're in the know and is a Ducati employee who knows every single interchange between riders and engineers/management, then I'd be implied to take notice of you.
If not I'd be implied to think you're talking crap about a rider because you don't like him.
 
Actually, like my username suggests I'm a Yamaha fan, and an admirer of all the riders on the grid. They're all at a level that I could only dream of, so I'm not compelled to mock or slag off any of their riding skills.
Perhaps you're amazing and slipped through the net when it came to getting a MotoGP ride?
Perhaps you're just a keyboard jockey who happens to dislike a rider, so takes every opportunity to snipe at him?
If you're in the know and is a Ducati employee who knows every single interchange between riders and engineers/management, then I'd be implied to take notice of you.
If not I'd be implied to think you're talking crap about a rider because you don't like him.

Fair enough, and by that standard pretty much everyone on this forum is talking crap as well......crap includes conspiracies...

Either way JLo is supposed to be great beyond other riders as per some on this forum even declared on this thread....and that it is all down to the bike not the rider....and I don't buy it with Dovi doing as well as he is doing....if a rider is as great as he is supposed to be (no matter the rider) then they have to live up to their potential (and salary)...
 
Fair enough, and by that standard pretty much everyone on this forum is talking crap as well......crap includes conspiracies...

Either way JLo is supposed to be great beyond other riders as per some on this forum even declared on this thread....and that it is all down to the bike not the rider....and I don't buy it with Dovi doing as well as he is doing....if a rider is as great as he is supposed to be (no matter the rider) then they have to live up to their potential (and salary)...

Couldn't agree more. JLo was never worth this kind of money. Anyone who watches gp knows the kind of rider he is and what kind of bike he needs. The ducati will never be the bike for him. But hey what would you do for 13 mil? I think he has handled the situation very well.
 
Perfect opportunity to divert this discussion further. I love derailing threads. This dichotomy is something I find particularly interesting – apologies if this meanders a bit. The four pillars of the scientific method are…

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of a hypothesis to explain the phenomena. (In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a mathematical relationship.)
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict other phenomena or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters.
In physics, as in every experimental science, experimentation is paramount and experimental verification of hypothetical predictions is crucial. Science progresses through trial and error, mostly .... ups. Every new theory or law must be sceptically and rigorously tested before acceptance. Science progresses by screwing up, correcting the mistakes, then moving on to make more balls ups. If we stopped making mistakes, scientific progress would stop. When a scientist proclaims that something has been found to be 'true', what is meant isn't any form of absolute truth. Likewise, scientists' use of 'reality' and 'belief' shouldn’t imply finality or dogmatism.

In cosmology, to avoid the inference that the earth is near the centre of the cosmos, as implied by isotropy of redshift and of cosmic microwave background energy, a highly speculative and difficult-to-test hypothesis has been invoked known as the Copernican Principle. This posits that the entire cosmos is just like what we observe from the earth, at least at large scales. Through this gravity perfectly cancels at large scales and kept the cosmos from being inside a black hole during the early phases of a Big Bang. All Big Bang models depend critically on this hypothesis. The fact that the Copernican Principle up to now has been untestable means, strictly speaking, that Big Bang cosmology cannot be viewed as authentic science since it relies in a critical way on an untestable hypothesis. Ha ha!!!

When rapid advances in experimental observations occur, a model may be found so seriously inadequate to accommodate the new data that we may scrap a large part of it and start over with a new model. Relativity and quantum mechanics are historical examples of ‘scientific revolutions’. When such massive upheavals or paradigm shifts occur, and old models are superseded with new ones, that doesn't necessarily mean the old ones were completely fallacious nor does it mean their underlying concepts were invalid. They still work within their scope of their applicability. Newton's physics wasn't suddenly “wrong”, nor were its predictions found unreliable or incorrect when we adopted Einstein's relativity. Relativity had greater scope than Newtonian physics, but it also rested on a different conceptual basis. I had always loved Newton’s declaration that if I have seen further than any man it is because “I have stood on the shoulders of giants”. A beautiful quote which encapsulated the scientific method. (Then it was completely ....... ruined for me by those Mancunian knuckle draggers Oasis naming an album after it.
I find this relationship – or symbiosis between mathematics and science that you refer to Vudu as fascinating. Mathematics is the preferred modelling analogy for physics. Any migraine inducing physics textbook is replete with byzantine equations and mathematical reasoning. Yet to understand physics we must appreciate that mathematics is not a science, and science is not merely mathematics. Today science and mathematics are separate and independent - yet cognate disciplines. The physicist must learn .... loads of mathematics, but the mathematician (unless working in an applied field) need not know science. In fact, most pure mathematicians seldom interact with scientists, and have no need to. Likewise, physicists generally are capable of doing their mathematics without interaction with mathematicians, and have on a number of occasions, developed new mathematics to solve particularly awkward problems.

My Father (we’ll call him Dad No.1) was originally a mathematician as an undergrad, but became an inorganic chemist by accident (and as a product very lucrative serendipitous stipend) but as an academic, his later body of work was as a physicist. (I have two Dad’s y’see – the other one was a rogue and a serial lothario who fled London back to Dublin not long after I was born and became a career hedonist. He probably listens to Oasis albums.) Those around Dad No.1 spent a lot of time reading the mathematics literature, saying things like "Those mathematicians are doing some stuff that might be really useful to us. I only wish they spoke our language." I remember that he always used to tell me about the complex arcane jargon with which each discipline had spawned within its own field had diverged to the point where special effort must be made to "cross over" into the technical literature of the other field.

By pure mathematics one can prove that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter (called "pi") is approximately p = 3.141 etc etc..., but we can also prove that you cannot express it exactly with a finite number of decimal places. Its value is an unending decimal—an irrational number. No measurement of real circles can have such perfect precision, so the value of p cannot be determined by experiment on nature. The reason I’m saying this is because it illustrates that mathematical propositions cannot be proven by experiment, only by pure logic. On the other hand, no scientific law or theory can be proven by using only the methods of mathematics. Mathematics is a handy analogy that can be used to model parts of nature. The mathematics can be carried out to whatever precision is needed, or adequate for a particular scientific purpose. Mathematics cannot discover new scientific truths, but as we develop science through hypothesis testing, mathematics can not only test the hypotheses against measurements, but help us refine tweak the hypothesis to bring them in closer agreement with experiment.

Logical deduction, including mathematical logic, is the language with which my old man framed his theories of physics. Mathematics is capable of far greater power and precision than mere words. In fact, it is the beautiful, elegant eloquence by which may physicists do their creative thinking. It is also the tool we use to test our theories against the final (and unforgiving) arbiter of experiment and measurement that I was referring to – as you say, the proof. But even mathematics should not be mistaken as a doorway to scientific truth.

What all this has to do with Rossi’s tyre allocation is most probably the subject of Jum’s next published thesis to be peer reviewed on powerslide.

Actually, what the .... does this have to do with speculation about Rossi’s rubber?

Damn bro save some bandwidth for Jum jum.
 
Couldn't agree more. JLo was never worth this kind of money. Anyone who watches gp knows the kind of rider he is and what kind of bike he needs. The ducati will never be the bike for him. But hey what would you do for 13 mil? I think he has handled the situation very well.

He has definitely handled the money side very very well, but the legacy side of things is suffering greatly...
 
He has definitely handled the money side very very well, but the legacy side of things is suffering greatly...

It didn't hurt Caseys legacy that his talent only brought him to the top twice. I'm fine with it. Like I said, we aren't learning anything we didn't know about Jlo by watching him struggle on the ducati.
 
My bold prediction is that Lorenzo wins less than 5 more grands prix in his career and no more world championships. The M1 was the perfect bike for him, and there is no other bike on the grid that allows him to exploit his strengths to the devastating effect that we saw from 2009 thru 2016. I purposely leave out the 2008 season because of the tire situation. Going to Suzuki would seem like a good move on the surface, but I'm not entirely convinced that bike would him any better than the Ducati. Going there would likely introduce an entirely new set of issues for him to try and wrap his head around, and ditto on KTM for that matter.

Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Rossi, and Vinales.

All 4 are highly contingent on all of the variables being in place for them with machine and tires. This is why I find Rossi's Ducati stint to be of such importance for historical assessment purposes. It removed the myth of Rossi as the great developer and the man who could ride anything to glory Of course this is mostly true of all racers save a select few. Vinales has been shown to be another version of Lorenzo. He may still win the title this year, but the tire change was enlightening from the perspective of showing what his adaptability is.

Guys that can ride truly ride around a problem bike and win races/title(s) with a problem bike? There have only been two such riders since the 4-stroke era commenced: Stoner and Marquez. Before that you'd have to go back to Wayne Rainey and Eddie Lawson.

That list is incredibly tiny, and should be considered the next time Kropo or the rest of the media contingent are throwing around the alien moniker and anointing whoever the latest flavor of the month/year is.

Changing gears slightly, Kropo's piece is up. There is one section I want to post here because it touches on the Michelin tires. Pedrosa had issues with wheel spin as did others. I've bolded the one line that makes me roll my eyes.

Pedrosa was not the only one to suffer such issues. Jack Miller, Danilo Petrucci, and Tito Rabat all reported similar problems. For Miller it left him very disappointed to finish in just fifteenth. Petrucci, too, was mystified, and frustrated at seeing a front-row start turn into a race-long slide into twelfth. "We had a program to switch maps every ten laps, and at the middle of the race, change the map of the engine brake," Petrucci said. "But it was not useful, because the bike after six or seven laps, became very difficult to open the throttle, everybody passed me on the straight, and it's quite strange to pass a Ducati on the straight. And especially Suzuki, Yamaha, KTM also. Pol passed me when I was in fourth gear."

Miller tried explicitly not to lay the blame on the Michelins. It was not a bad tire, he emphasized, but rather, "a tire that felt different," he said. "It didn't feel correct. Mainly on the left hand side, from five or six laps, from Turn 5, 6, 7, all the way up the hill on that left hand side, even on partial throttle or shut off, it just kept on coming round on me. I was just trying to keep the bike kind of neutral and calm the whole way through there. I was really fast in the back sector and the bottom of the hill."

Is this another sign of quality control issues with Michelin? It is hard to say. Dani Pedrosa may have had a problem with this tires, but that did not stop him from finishing third, just eleven seconds off the win. There were plenty of possible culprits which may have contributed. The track temperatures were hotter than they had been all weekend, and the race was run directly after Moto2 again. The impression that remains is that the Michelins are still sensitive to temperature, and if the temperature is higher or lower than expected, that can have a significant impact on both tire feel and tire performance.

Since I know Kropo reads this site but won't post here. I'm going to put this in no uncertain terms. Claiming it is hard to say that it's another sign of quality control issues with Michelin is ....... embarrassing Kropo and why you come across as a hack. The Michelin tires have been .... from day one. The one thing I will allow is that it is debatable as to whether it's unintentional .... quality, or if it's intentional .... quality. It may be a mix of the two since when you start trying to level the playing field via tires, it leads to quality control issues as Pirelli found out. Of course press access matters most and it's obvious the riders have been told to keep their mouth shut with Michelin criticisms.
 
The fact we keep hearing every single week from one rider or another that it was great in warm up or practice but then during the race the tyre dropped off really quickly should to anyone with a brain there is something wrong. I can't think of any rider who hasn't yet mentioned a similar story of total inconsistency with the tyres.
 
The fact we keep hearing every single week from one rider or another that it was great in warm up or practice but then during the race the tyre dropped off really quickly should to anyone with a brain there is something wrong. I can't think of any rider who hasn't yet mentioned a similar story of total inconsistency with the tyres.

Bit of a laugh, but when I read your comment I thought hmm those tyres remind me of liquorice, specifically Liquorice Allsorts
iu
 
I can't think of any rider who hasn't yet mentioned a similar story of total inconsistency with the tyres.

Rossi included on several occasions, which rather confounds the conspiracy theory. Historically I did find the mysterious Valencia tyre problems quite suspicious. Completely the reverse of SNS, the Sunday morning the tyre that had been fast all weekend stopped working "something was wrong, because I was very slow. Is strange. Something strange happened I think". Stoner is also convinced that Rossi was given a duff tyre. That Materrazi stunt at Sachsenring possibly proved quite costly. The original Rossi conspiracy theory.

I think it's great this season - whether by design or incompetence it has introduced the frisson of chaos and unpredictability...although satellite riders would justifiably still disagree.
 
He has already said he wants to escape his situation....
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/n...st-escape-uncompetitive-situation-924843/?s=1

He really can't blame the bike for his results since Dovi is going fairly well on it. Over the break he should be either practicing on dirt bikes to learn to ride looser and faster....or get on the phone to Suzuki begging for Iannone's slot before someone else takes it....

Overall great race from Folger and MM....shame Dani wasn't able to stay with those guys....the rest of field made for a mediocre racing otherwise...

I am happy to see the title chase very very close though, and I hope Dani can keep creeping up the table to possibly get a shot at the title....

Just an aside, by the 9th race of the season in 2011 Rossi was 4th in championship on the Ducati....
I dont think in any way Lorenzo was saying he needs to leave Ducati. Just more misconstrued wording,todays journalist wet dream.
 
How the hell did Trump get into one of these threads, again. "Ya' got to do better than that, or ya' gonna lose the argument." (S. Martin - My Blue Heaven)

........
By pure mathematics one can prove that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter (called "pi") is approximately p = 3.141 etc etc..., but we can also prove that you cannot express it exactly with a finite number of decimal places. Its value is an unending decimal—an irrational number. No measurement of real circles can have such perfect precision, so the value of p cannot be determined by experiment on nature. The reason I’m saying this is because it illustrates that mathematical propositions cannot be proven by experiment, only by pure logic.........
Actually, what the .... does this have to do with speculation about Rossi’s rubber?
Here is my hypothetical solution to pi: Make circles 361 degrees instead of 360. Then you have a perfect 19^2. Awesome. Everything is much easier and more accurate with perfect roots and squares. You can pick another perfect square, if you like. It's all made up ways of communicating, just like the words that I type, now. We just have to agree on the meaning, or I am speaking French geometry and you are speaking Portuguese algebra.


Has there ever been a Portuguese MotoGP rider? And if so, would he like Rossi's rubber or not?
 
Fair enough, and by that standard pretty much everyone on this forum is talking crap as well......crap includes conspiracies...



Either way JLo is supposed to be great beyond other riders as per some on this forum even declared on this thread....and that it is all down to the bike not the rider....and I don't buy it with Dovi doing as well as he is doing....if a rider is as great as he is supposed to be (no matter the rider) then they have to live up to their potential (and salary)...



As I've said I'm not out to slate riders, I'd rather give them the benefit of doubt. You're comparing a man who's ridden the Ducati for years to one who's ridden it for about a dozen weekends. If it's the salary that irks you, well you have a problem. It's not his fault that Ducati saw fit to offer it.
Your lame comparison to Rossi showed your true colours, birdman shot that to pieces quite easily. I'm sure if he'd returned to Ducati you wouldn't be slating him, you'd be reading out the excuse book to us or sitting in sulky silence. Hell when he returned to his 6 year former ride Yamaha, the guy was hopeless in that first season, journalists and riders alike were announcing him as "finished".
One rider refused to criticise him and actually backed him to turn it around... Jorge Lorenzo.
Valentino had two years to turn the Ducati around, you might want to hold the ...... comments for at least one.
 
Has there ever been a Portuguese MotoGP rider? And if so, would he like Rossi's rubber or not?

Alex Barros along with several other Brazilian riders obviously spoke Portuguese. For several decades, Michelin has been cultivating nearly 21,000 hectares of Hevea plantations in Brazil, which not only meet 12% of MICHELIN’s natural rubber requirements worldwide but were the chief source of Rossi's fabled SNS.

Sebas Porto has the same surname as a City in Portugal - but he was Argentinian and never progressed beyond 250cc. Very entertaining rider though.

On the subject of South America, The safest gateway to smuggle cocaine to Europe in the 1970s was through Venezuela. Johnny Cecotto made a lot of friends in the paddock. He also often enjoyed pride of place at Sheene's table as a special guest in the Tramps entourage. :ninja:
 
How the hell did Trump get into one of these threads, again. "Ya' got to do better than that, or ya' gonna lose the argument." (S. Martin - My Blue Heaven)
Are you positing that he is the equivalent of the Nazis, and hence Godwin's law should be extended?
 
Alex Barros along with several other Brazilian riders obviously spoke Portuguese. For several decades, Michelin has been cultivating nearly 21,000 hectares of Hevea plantations in Brazil, which not only meet 12% of MICHELIN’s natural rubber requirements worldwide but were the chief source of Rossi's fabled SNS. .......
Ah, ha! So the Portuguese have been intentionally shunned by the world championship. And allowing in Portuguese speakers was just a ruse by the FIM to get by the nambie-wambie guilt ridden reformed imperialistic empires of centuries gone by. Shal-low I say.

As far as the rubber goes, perhaps those crazy Venezuelans could add rubber trees to the capitalistic way to support fake socialism. Venezuelans would have to learn to roll on wood wheels rather than tyres, however.
Are you positing that he is the equivalent of the Nazis, and hence Godwin's law should be extended?
I hate non-related politics with my motor racing. Really. I can argue for days about all sorts of social issues, but I want to "escape" the nonsense of most of our modern world when I talk about racing. I do love motor sports, and I hate seeing them being tainted by cheap, irrelevant political subjects. U.S. politics seem particularly irrelevant since the U.S. has almost no representation in world racing, anymore. I joked about politics above with Arrabby, so obviously not all politics is out. I like funny, ...... if I get it. ;-P
 
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As I've said I'm not out to slate riders, I'd rather give them the benefit of doubt. You're comparing a man who's ridden the Ducati for years to one who's ridden it for about a dozen weekends. If it's the salary that irks you, well you have a problem. It's not his fault that Ducati saw fit to offer it.
Your lame comparison to Rossi showed your true colours, birdman shot that to pieces quite easily. I'm sure if he'd returned to Ducati you wouldn't be slating him, you'd be reading out the excuse book to us or sitting in sulky silence. Hell when he returned to his 6 year former ride Yamaha, the guy was hopeless in that first season, journalists and riders alike were announcing him as "finished".
One rider refused to criticise him and actually backed him to turn it around... Jorge Lorenzo.
Valentino had two years to turn the Ducati around, you might want to hold the ...... comments for at least one.

Not sure what you took offence to in my post other than my questioning JLo salary or perhaps it was pointing out that 'crap' is all inclusive.....

Either way in my view, comparing Dovi's results and salary to JLo's is perfectly legitimate area of discussion and criticism. Ducati clearly made a similar assessment before they resigned Dovi and offered / signed JLo. Ducati didn't value Dovi talent as highly as JLo's talent and ability. I think that Ducati's expectations as per his pay figure are that JLo would adjust and deliver on their bike straight away and not a quarter (9 races into this season) of the way or longer through his contract. Ducati are paying for results now and in the future, not just in some future season.
The 2017 (and 2016) Ducati's can win races and be regular podium finishing bike, so JLo's excuses are looking pretty thin....

Do you believe that JLo's is being given a year to adapt into being able to ride consistently and win on the Ducati?
In the meantime, Dovi is very much in the hunt for the title....should he maybe get a 6 or 7 million euro raise for his current performance?

That aside...
Did Rossi greatly disappoint at Ducati? Absolutely!
Was he massively overpaid and under performed? Yes!
Was Rossi's return to Yamaha humiliating for him and his fans? Completely!
Should we compare Rossi's and Jlo's performances at Ducati? Of course, that is point of forum's like this one...

And I thought your screen name had to do with being a Sweater Yam fan....my mistake...
 
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Neither Rossi or Lorenzo were/are overpaid by Ducati. The duc has always been a difficult bike to ride and riders are putting their health on the line to attempt to get the best out of it. The salary Rossi & Lorenzo negotiated with Ducati is exactly the salary they deserved. Ducati's racing program(s) have been under performing... easy to point the finger at the riders when it should actually be pointed at engineers.
 

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