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You don't believe what's true, you believe only what you want to believe. In general, people are biased to interpret evidence in ways that are consistent with their desires. There is no verifiable truth behind claims the series or tires are rigged for Rossi.

There really are no scientific facts, there are scientific theories. Scientific theories are neither absolutely false nor absolutely true. They are always somewhere in between.

No, I'm not in Saudi or Kuwait and you clearly have little knowledge about the US military if you think systems engineers wouldn't need to deploy to hazardous or tactical environments. A $600 billion defense budget buys things that need to be maintained no matter where they are.

Yawn...

A pity you still haven't learned anything about this sport in spite of all of the fantastic information that has been posted here.

In addition, there's all these posts from you, and you have absolutely nothing to say about today's grand prix. Continue proving my point that you are here because you are so bothered by what a niche forum has to say.
 
Yawn...

A pity you still haven't learned anything about this sport in spite of all of the fantastic information that has been posted here.

In addition, there's all these posts from you, and you have absolutely nothing to say about today's grand prix. Continue proving my point that you are here because you are so bothered by what a niche forum has to say.

I agree that there has been some fantastic information posted here, however, none of it was posted from you.
 
I agree that there has been some fantastic information posted here, however, none of it was posted from me.

FTFY

Care to make an actual comment on today's race at the Sachsenring? This seems to be exceedingly difficult for you to do.
 
You don't believe what's true, you believe only what you want to believe. In general, people are biased to interpret evidence in ways that are consistent with their desires. There is no verifiable truth behind claims the series or tires are rigged for Rossi.

There really are no scientific facts, there are scientific theories. Scientific theories are neither absolutely false nor absolutely true. They are always somewhere in between.

No, I'm not in Saudi or Kuwait and you clearly have little knowledge about the US military if you think systems engineers wouldn't need to deploy to hazardous or tactical environments. A $600 billion defense budget buys things that need to be maintained no matter where they are.

What isn't a conspiracy leaving Rossi aside is that the sport has devolved into a tire lottery, quite possibly significantly due to Michelin being incompetent, but also fairly clearly with Dorna's connivance and quite likely by their contrivance imo, with the tires both substandard and subject to capricious change. You will dispute anything you see as reflecting even vaguely badly on Rossi, including any suggestion the Michelin tires aren't up to scratch.

I am all for close racing and close title battles, as long as same are real as in 2006 and not contrived. I have a similar attitude to the yellow flags thrown at the end of Nascar races to ensure a last lap stoush. If your boy Vinales was good enough to street the field on the tires originally provided for the season and indeed voted for before the season, then he deserved to do so imo, or at the very least those tires should have remained available to him if a new tire was brought in to benefit other competitors.

JPS's main concern with which I agree is that one of the last remaining true sports is going down the path of F1, which he like I once avidly followed (my interest is reduced now to a mere parochial interest in Ricciardo) and also like me I believe sees the dash messages as the latest straw in this devolvement.

It is hardly a radical theory that Rossi being successful is desirable for Dorna now that they are in the sports entertainment business rather than running a true sport, but I don't personally believe that they attempt to rig individual races, or that it is possible to devise tires which suit Rossi alone, or that he is being given tires which are less defective than those given to others for that matter.
 
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Can't go wrong either way. Have fun with that.
That is not the punch line. I bought the BMW in May of 2015. It had several problems, including multiple oil leaks. Because of family and personal illness, the bike was idle for over a year. It was suppose to be a track bike. It still has not seen the track. UGH! I learned, again, not to judge a book by it's pretty cover. I will probably never buy ANY BMW product, again.
Not too happy today firstly my John came off in Moto3 , this didnt go down well :( at least he was ok.....
Then Jorge came in 11th. He seriously needs to have a think over the summer break , its NOT working with the Ducati. Im sure after 9 races hes got some idea how it operates and they are obviously incompatible....or does he need more time? I dont think so..
I am REALLY confused after this last race. He started just like he always has when he is at his best and he looked great. Then when everyone else has their tires warmed and he has a little wear, he slows down. It is bizarre. It is not at the end of the race when you expect tire wear to have an effect on some riders and bikes.

Here is my guess: The Ducati continues to be a rear-wheel biased machine, just like when Stoner rode it. George is a front-wheel biased kind of guy. Unless the bike starts giving him better feedback through his hands, rather than his feet, he may be doomed.
 
I am quite surprised by Zarco's lack of pace. What has changed? I'm sure Yamaha were not pleased with him exchanging paint with Rossi.

Excuse me invisible moderator, why did you delete my post asking Vudu about the large red thing sticking in his face in his avatar's photo? An over reaction as a result of your own perception maybe?
 
You don't believe what's true, you believe only what you want to believe. In general, people are biased to interpret evidence in ways that are consistent with their desires. There is no verifiable truth behind claims the series or tires are rigged for Rossi.

There really are no scientific facts, there are scientific theories. Scientific theories are neither absolutely false nor absolutely true. They are always somewhere in between.

No, I'm not in Saudi or Kuwait and you clearly have little knowledge about the US military if you think systems engineers wouldn't need to deploy to hazardous or tactical environments. A $600 billion defense budget buys things that need to be maintained no matter where they are.

Oooh... you sound perfect for a position in the Trump-Era Alternative-EPA! You clearly have very very good knowledge.
 
Not too happy today firstly my John came off in Moto3 , this didnt go down well :( at least he was ok.....
Then Jorge came in 11th. He seriously needs to have a think over the summer break , its NOT working with the Ducati. Im sure after 9 races hes got some idea how it operates and they are obviously incompatible....or does he need more time? I dont think so..



Have faith Libby, Lorenzo will turn it around, he's had so little time on the bike with consistent weather conditions.
This weekend all the Ducatis messed up by going with soft tyres expecting cooler conditions and rain later in the race. It never materialised and they all suffered.
Jorge actually bettered Petrucci who was on a medium front/soft rear like dovi. For Jorge to manage a soft front tyre to the end too in front of an in form Petrucci was a sign he's getting a bit of understanding of the bike.
 
He has already said he wants to escape his situation....

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/n...st-escape-uncompetitive-situation-924843/?s=1



He really can't blame the bike for his results since Dovi is going fairly well on it. Over the break he should be either practicing on dirt bikes to learn to ride looser and faster....or get on the phone to Suzuki begging for Iannone's slot before someone else takes it....



Overall great race from Folger and MM....shame Dani wasn't able to stay with those guys....the rest of field made for a mediocre racing otherwise...



I am happy to see the title chase very very close though, and I hope Dani can keep creeping up the table to possibly get a shot at the title....



Just an aside, by the 9th race of the season in 2011 Rossi was 4th in championship on the Ducati....



In 2011 did we have kit ecu's, Michelin tyres, and a depth of field like today with satellite bikes regularly beating factory machines. No! Your lame attempt to compare situations has no base whatsoever. Times have changed massively.
Also Lorenzo has not said he wants to bail on Ducati, his Spanish to English can be poor. By saying escape the situation he's is saying he wants to improve and get to where he can ride the bike with the leaders and has been trying hard in all conditions. Take this weekend, he was looking forward to a wet race as he was faster than dovi, Rossi and Maverick and feeling comfortable in the wet.
Lorenzo is in a tough situation for the time being as Dovi and Petrucci have had years of experience on Ducatis and are able to adapt better to the bike on different tracks and weather. He has spent his entire career on Yamaha and needs seat time to learn what is a very complicated bike.
When Ducati sort the turning issue all 3 Ducati boys will be challenging for the front positions regularly.
 
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In 2011 did we have kit ecu's, Michelin tyres, and a depth of field like today with satellite bikes regularly beating factory machines. No! Your lame attempt to compare situations has no base whatsoever. Times have changed massively.

Rossi did have the bike Stoner apparently developed into a dog. That was another of the bopper 'facts' that we non believer conspiracy theorists used to argue against from our flat planet.

Rossi used this bike for the absolutely amazing first half results of:

7th, 5, 5, 3, 5, 6, 4, 6, 9.

But then the important part. By half season Rossi was stamping his mark on the development of the bike. He had methodically rectified the flaws Stoner had imparted and the Ducati was now a sharpened weapon that went on to finish:

6th, 6, 10, 7, 10, crash, crash, DNS, crash.

Alas by then Rossi was desperate to escape the situation and run back to Yamaha. And Ducati were left up .... creek. It was finally acknowledged from goat Stoner in fact rode like a god. Man it sucks being wrong all the time.

Now lets just wait and see how Lorenzo finishes up the season to complete this comparison.
 
Lorenzo is in a tough situation for the time being as Dovi and Petrucci have had years of experience on Ducatis and are able to adapt better to the bike on different tracks and weather. He has spent his entire career on Yamaha and needs seat time to learn what is a very complicated bike.
When Ducati sort the turning issue all 3 Ducati boys will be challenging for the front positions regularly.

I understand you are a JLo fan and want to see him do well on the Duc. However, if JLo is as great a rider as some on this forum have said he is then rapidly adapting to a new bike or tires should be within his skillset as a great rider. I dont think JLo can adapt, and hence why he is pulling a Rossi and hoping Ducati will building a Yamaha.

As far as Gigi sorting out the Ducati turning issue, he has been at Ducati now for 3 years and still no real solution for that issue. Gigi spent 2 years focusing on aerodynamics vs the chassis or power delivery, or at least it seems to me. Maybe Jorge's input isnt what Ducati needs, and instead they should focus on listening to Dovi's input and experience....

At 13.5 million dollars a year, JLo can't complain he just has to get to work and adapt (a new chassis isnt coming in 2017 for Ducati)...and if he can't adapt then he needs to admit it to himself jump ship and let Ducati find a young hungry riders that will work and learn and adapt and work for 1 million a year like Miller....or maybe B.Binder...
 
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My favourite thing on this thread is when MotoVudu said there are no scientific facts only theories. Poor guy must be mentally ........ if that's what he thinks.
 
My favourite thing on this thread is when MotoVudu said there are no scientific facts only theories. Poor guy must be mentally ........ if that's what he thinks.

You find my statement amusing because you're ignorant about science.


Misconceptions about the nature and practice of science abound, and are sometimes even held by otherwise respectable practicing scientists themselves. I have dispelled some of them (misconceptions, not scientists) in earlier posts (for example, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, beauty is only skin-deep, and you can’t judge a book by its cover). Unfortunately, there are many other misconceptions about science. One of the most common misconceptions concerns the so-called “scientific proofs.” Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a scientific proof.

Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. All else equal (such as internal logical consistency and parsimony), scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to theories for which there is less and worse evidence. Proofs are not the currency of science.

Proofs have two features that do not exist in science: They are final, and they are binary. Once a theorem is proven, it will forever be true and there will be nothing in the future that will threaten its status as a proven theorem (unless a flaw is discovered in the proof). Apart from a discovery of an error, a proven theorem will forever and always be a proven theorem.

In contrast, all scientific knowledge is tentative and provisional, and nothing is final. There is no such thing as final proven knowledge in science. The currently accepted theory of a phenomenon is simply the best explanation for it among all available alternatives. Its status as the accepted theory is contingent on what other theories are available and might suddenly change tomorrow if there appears a better theory or new evidence that might challenge the accepted theory. No knowledge or theory (which embodies scientific knowledge) is final.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof




Definitions of Fact, Theory, and Law in Scientific Work

Science uses specialized terms that have different meanings than everyday usage. These definitions correspond to the way scientists typically use these terms in the context of their work. Note, especially, that the meaning of “theory” in science is different than the meaning of “theory” in everyday conversation.

Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, the hypothesis is provisionally corroborated. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis is proved false and must be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.
Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.
https://ncse.com/library-resource/definitions-fact-theory-law-scientific-work
 
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All very well for you to be a stickler for precise definitions when it suits you MV, while constantly exhibiting ludicrous double standards ie crying conspiracy theory when your boy himself is the biggest conspiracy theorist in the history of the sport; I am led to believe you consider climate change to be a conspiracy as well.

Somewhat like your boy Trump calling his opponent Lyin' Hillary in your recent election; sure she is, she has had a long career as a politician, but the Donald is hardly the one to be pointing fingers.

I think you might find there are multiple posters on here including other engineers with basic familiarity with the scientific method.
 
All very well for you to be a stickler for precise definitions when it suits you MV, while constantly exhibiting ludicrous double standards ie crying conspiracy theory when your boy himself is the biggest conspiracy theorist in the history of the sport; I am led to believe you consider climate change to be a conspiracy as well.

Somewhat like your boy Trump calling his opponent Lyin' Hillary in your recent election; sure she is, she has had a long career as a politician, but the Donald is hardly the one to be pointing fingers.

I think you might find there are multiple posters on here including other engineers with basic familiarity with the scientific method.

There you go bringing up Sepang 2015 again. You just can't help yourself. Are you sure your username isn't a typo? You're probably meant "michaelj"
for Michael J Fox.

xXqYRBa.jpg





There are definitely multiple posters here that are well versed in science, but it's clear JPS, Little Walter, and p4p1 don't even understand the fundamentals.
 
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There you go bringing up Sepang 2015 again. You just can't help yourself. Are you sure your username isn't a typo? You're probably meant "michaelj"
for Michael J Fox.

xXqYRBa.jpg





There are definitely multiple posters here that are well versed in science, but it's clear JPS, Little Walter, and p4p1 don't even understand the fundamentals.

Since the matters to which you refer are rather intrinsic to my whole attitude to Valentino, which was different previously, and are completely antithetical to your whole position, no I won't forget them for your convenience, particularly since forgetting things is not much of a talent of mine. You are the guy who wants to go back to the 2009 championship and champion in any case rather than looking to the future; I was quite happy despite not initially favouring him for Vinales to be a dominant champion this year before they handicapped him, and would have considered such a title win well deserved. He is still some chance anyway of course.
 
There really are no scientific facts, there are scientific theories. Scientific theories are neither absolutely false nor absolutely true. They are always somewhere in between.

Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. ]

Perfect opportunity to divert this discussion further. I love derailing threads. This dichotomy is something I find particularly interesting – apologies if this meanders a bit. The four pillars of the scientific method are…

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of a hypothesis to explain the phenomena. (In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a mathematical relationship.)
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict other phenomena or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters.
In physics, as in every experimental science, experimentation is paramount and experimental verification of hypothetical predictions is crucial. Science progresses through trial and error, mostly .... ups. Every new theory or law must be sceptically and rigorously tested before acceptance. Science progresses by screwing up, correcting the mistakes, then moving on to make more balls ups. If we stopped making mistakes, scientific progress would stop. When a scientist proclaims that something has been found to be 'true', what is meant isn't any form of absolute truth. Likewise, scientists' use of 'reality' and 'belief' shouldn’t imply finality or dogmatism.

In cosmology, to avoid the inference that the earth is near the centre of the cosmos, as implied by isotropy of redshift and of cosmic microwave background energy, a highly speculative and difficult-to-test hypothesis has been invoked known as the Copernican Principle. This posits that the entire cosmos is just like what we observe from the earth, at least at large scales. Through this gravity perfectly cancels at large scales and kept the cosmos from being inside a black hole during the early phases of a Big Bang. All Big Bang models depend critically on this hypothesis. The fact that the Copernican Principle up to now has been untestable means, strictly speaking, that Big Bang cosmology cannot be viewed as authentic science since it relies in a critical way on an untestable hypothesis. Ha ha!!!

When rapid advances in experimental observations occur, a model may be found so seriously inadequate to accommodate the new data that we may scrap a large part of it and start over with a new model. Relativity and quantum mechanics are historical examples of ‘scientific revolutions’. When such massive upheavals or paradigm shifts occur, and old models are superseded with new ones, that doesn't necessarily mean the old ones were completely fallacious nor does it mean their underlying concepts were invalid. They still work within their scope of their applicability. Newton's physics wasn't suddenly “wrong”, nor were its predictions found unreliable or incorrect when we adopted Einstein's relativity. Relativity had greater scope than Newtonian physics, but it also rested on a different conceptual basis. I had always loved Newton’s declaration that if I have seen further than any man it is because “I have stood on the shoulders of giants”. A beautiful quote which encapsulated the scientific method. (Then it was completely ....... ruined for me by those Mancunian knuckle draggers Oasis naming an album after it.
I find this relationship – or symbiosis between mathematics and science that you refer to Vudu as fascinating. Mathematics is the preferred modelling analogy for physics. Any migraine inducing physics textbook is replete with byzantine equations and mathematical reasoning. Yet to understand physics we must appreciate that mathematics is not a science, and science is not merely mathematics. Today science and mathematics are separate and independent - yet cognate disciplines. The physicist must learn .... loads of mathematics, but the mathematician (unless working in an applied field) need not know science. In fact, most pure mathematicians seldom interact with scientists, and have no need to. Likewise, physicists generally are capable of doing their mathematics without interaction with mathematicians, and have on a number of occasions, developed new mathematics to solve particularly awkward problems.

My Father (we’ll call him Dad No.1) was originally a mathematician as an undergrad, but became an inorganic chemist by accident (and as a product very lucrative serendipitous stipend) but as an academic, his later body of work was as a physicist. (I have two Dad’s y’see – the other one was a rogue and a serial lothario who fled London back to Dublin not long after I was born and became a career hedonist. He probably listens to Oasis albums.) Those around Dad No.1 spent a lot of time reading the mathematics literature, saying things like "Those mathematicians are doing some stuff that might be really useful to us. I only wish they spoke our language." I remember that he always used to tell me about the complex arcane jargon with which each discipline had spawned within its own field had diverged to the point where special effort must be made to "cross over" into the technical literature of the other field.

By pure mathematics one can prove that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter (called "pi") is approximately p = 3.141 etc etc..., but we can also prove that you cannot express it exactly with a finite number of decimal places. Its value is an unending decimal—an irrational number. No measurement of real circles can have such perfect precision, so the value of p cannot be determined by experiment on nature. The reason I’m saying this is because it illustrates that mathematical propositions cannot be proven by experiment, only by pure logic. On the other hand, no scientific law or theory can be proven by using only the methods of mathematics. Mathematics is a handy analogy that can be used to model parts of nature. The mathematics can be carried out to whatever precision is needed, or adequate for a particular scientific purpose. Mathematics cannot discover new scientific truths, but as we develop science through hypothesis testing, mathematics can not only test the hypotheses against measurements, but help us refine tweak the hypothesis to bring them in closer agreement with experiment.

Logical deduction, including mathematical logic, is the language with which my old man framed his theories of physics. Mathematics is capable of far greater power and precision than mere words. In fact, it is the beautiful, elegant eloquence by which may physicists do their creative thinking. It is also the tool we use to test our theories against the final (and unforgiving) arbiter of experiment and measurement that I was referring to – as you say, the proof. But even mathematics should not be mistaken as a doorway to scientific truth.

What all this has to do with Rossi’s tyre allocation is most probably the subject of Jum’s next published thesis to be peer reviewed on powerslide.

Actually, what the .... does this have to do with speculation about Rossi’s rubber?
 

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