GoPro Motorrad Grand Prix Deutschland 2016 spoiler and ....

moto vudu said:

Lol, so Lorenzo gives an interview explaining why he crashed. You say I shouldn't believe that, the real reason he was struggling is due to a tire conspiracy.

No, I don't believe the tires were made for one rider. There should be some characteristics of a Michelin tire that remains the same, but it's doubtful that the new Michelins have a lot in common with those used years back.

You have a very strong desire to tie everything that happens in MotoGP to a Rossi/Dorna conspiracy. Not sure if it's your way of trolling for fun, or if you're just determined to believe this sport (that you claim to like) is nothing but corruption.

Once you're forced to hypothesize
whole new technologies to keep
your conspiracy possible,
you've stepped over
into the Realm of Magic.
It demands a deep and abiding
faith in things you can never know.

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No conspiracy theory at all, but rather a matter of historical record, that changes have been made to tyres on several occasions in the last decade in premier class GP bike racing, sometimes at short notice, nor that this has been to the disadvantage of some riders or marques (cf Ducati, Honda and on both occasions Casey Stoner who was riding for them at the time). There is also no doubt that certain tyres have advantaged certain riders, including the Michelin race day tyres (Tony Elias for one, Valentino Rossi according to his team-mate Colin Edwards), the old Bridgestone "hard" tyre (Ducati, and Casey Stoner when he was riding for Ducati in particular), the Bridgestone edge grip tyre (Jorge Lorenzo), the Bridgestone "hard" tyre for Rossi last year, and whatever Michelin tyre was available to Jorge at the Sepang pre-season test which he dominated and which doesn't seem to be around anymore.

It is extremely clear that Jorge needs a suitable tyre for his riding style to work, and not at all far-fetched to suggest he would be affected by the absence of such a tyre. Whether there is any evidence of a specific pro-Rossi conspiracy in regard to the tyre situation this year is another question, and in a way there cannot really be such a conspiracy given any tyre that suits Rossi will likely also suit MM, but I don't see how you can claim it is impossible that Dorna or a tyre company would manipulate tyres or slant the development of tyres to suit (or not suit as the case may be) particular bikes or riders, given this has clearly been done in the past, nor that it would be unprecedented for Rossi in particular to be favored. He is certainly favored by his team/the preferred winner for his team over his team-mate at present, and was during his first stint at Yamaha when team-mates such as Colin Edwards were basically test mules.

You could I guess argue that Lorenzo is a more limited rider because he can't ride a tyre which suits Rossi as well as Rossi can, but then the reverse also applies and as I have said repeatedly I don't see why they all can't have tyres which suit them, and the control tyre has neither cut costs (manufacturers have actually had to re-develop bikes to suit the control tyre) or leveled the field which was the rationale for having a control tyre.

michaelm said:

No conspiracy theory at all, but rather a matter of historical record, that changes have been made to tyres on several occasions in the last decade in premier class GP bike racing, sometimes at short notice, nor that this has been to the disadvantage of some riders or marques (cf Ducati, Honda and on both occasions Casey Stoner who was riding for them at the time). There is also no doubt that certain tyres have advantaged certain riders, including the Michelin race day tyres (Tony Elias for one, Valentino Rossi according to his team-mate Colin Edwards), the old Bridgestone "hard" tyre (Ducati, and Casey Stoner when he was riding for Ducati in particular), the Bridgestone edge grip tyre (Jorge Lorenzo), the Bridgestone "hard" tyre for Rossi last year, and whatever Michelin tyre was available to Jorge at the Sepang pre-season test which he dominated and which doesn't seem to be around anymore.

It is extremely clear that Jorge needs a suitable tyre for his riding style to work, and not at all far-fetched to suggest he would be affected by the absence of such a tyre. Whether there is any evidence of a specific pro-Rossi conspiracy in regard to the tyre situation this year is another question, and in a way there cannot really be such a conspiracy given any tyre that suits Rossi will likely also suit MM, but I don't see how you can claim it is impossible that Dorna or a tyre company would manipulate tyres or slant the development of tyres to suit (or not suit as the case may be) particular bikes or riders, given this has clearly been done in the past, nor that it would be unprecedented for Rossi in particular to be favored. He is certainly favored by his team/the preferred winner for his team over his team-mate at present, and was during his first stint at Yamaha when team-mates such as Colin Edwards were basically test mules.

You could I guess argue that Lorenzo is a more limited rider because he can't ride a tyre which suits Rossi as well as Rossi can, but then the reverse also applies and as I have said repeatedly I don't see why they all can't have tyres which suit them, and the control tyre has neither cut costs (manufacturers have actually had to re-develop bikes to suit the control tyre) or leveled the field which was the rationale for having a control tyre.

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You guys claim the tires Lorenzo was fast on at pre-season testing in Sepang have been made to disappear, but Lorenzo has 3 wins so far this year (Qatar, Le Mans, and Mugello). He earned those wins using the same tire as everyone else and he has been struggling since Catalunya using the same tire as everyone. It's HIS problem, he has to work on his ability to ride with different compounds and in changing conditions. You guys are making excuses for him that he isn't even making for himself!

Fridays crash = Pushed too hard in cold/damp conditions.
Q1 crash = Ran over the inside curb resulting in losing the front.
Q2 crash = Didn't get enough heat on the right side of the tire before pushing the limit in turn 1.

Yesterday it was "Yamaha isn't treating Lorenzo equally!". Today it's "Rossi, Dorna, & Michelin are conspiring to change the tires to affect Lorenzo even though Marquez is the one leading the championship". When it rains tomorrow it'll be "Rossi, Dorna, Michelin, Yamaha, and The Red Woman "Melisandre" have prayed for the Lord of Light to bring weather conditions that will make Lorenzo suffer."

You act like your conspiracy theory is isn't irrational and anyone who doesn't believe it is just a dumb Rossi bopper lacking your inside knowledge about what goes on behind the MotoGP curtain.

Most of us aren't oblivious to what has gone in MotoGP over the last 15 seasons, you are.

The lengths Dorna has gone to, to ensure VR is competitive seems to be completely lost on you and the rest of your brethren.

Just remember, the penalty for intentionally crashing out another rider is the same as unintentionally crashing out another rider. Why is that? Because Dorna needed their #TheGrandFinale .........

moto vudu said:

You guys sit and act like your conspiracy theory is isn't irrational and anyone who doesn't believe it is just a dumb Rossi bopper lacking your inside knowledge about what goes on behind the MotoGP curtain.

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Pot kettle.

Has the same not been said by those on your side of the fence regarding the unproveable conspiracy theory of 2015?

How many times have people claimed irrefutable proof has been spoken but when challenged do not debate but bluster?

Personally I see very few people calling you, Dani or most others 'stupid' however the term bopper may well be apt to many as your preponderance to read everything as an attack on VR shows your bias (and certainly, many including myself have our own bias).

FWIW and please try to read this with an open mind, but history does show that DORNA have made a number of late decisions (ie. changes to tyre construction, bike weight etc) that have seemingly hindered some riders whilst benefitting others. These decisions may well be made with an intent to assist one particular rider (leave that for the imagination) but DORNA nor no other person making the decision can know with certainty that their designated rider will be the ONLY one that benefits by the changes.

To assume that DORNA do not try to milk their cash cow is somewhat naive as from DORNA's view it is business first, second and third and as such it is about increasing their bottom line figure. Fact is and I suspect that you will agree here but Rossi is that very critical element to DORNA's bottom line as if VR is not happy or VR is not competitive he has the following and subsequent associated power to affect the DORNA bottom line, thus I am sure that he gets due consideration not afforded to all others (note I said all others which indicates that some get similar or equal consideration)

Business at the top is dirty, it is murky and there are huge amounts of underhanded back door (no pun intended) deals done to ensure that the dollar flow continues. Some of these dealing are illegal, many immoral, some harmful and yet much is acceptable even though it may be unpopular.

None of it proves a thing, and proof is of the essence (just as it was in 2015) but history and machinations over the years to those who have observed much or perhaps some who may have had a discussion with others around the paddock does leave a somewhat sour taste at times.


Edit to add:
With regards to the equal treatment I am reserving judgement at this time (although as stated some time back I expect Yamaha to favour VR as he is their 2017 rider) but recent history does not look good for Yamaha in those aspects, although in that case the deckchairs were indeed a different make.

Seriously I know that some may not rate Spies but that guy remains the only rider aside from one considered an alien to have won a DRY MotoGP race since 2006 and his final season was a debacle, not all of which can be said to be his own making and most of which seemed to occur after it was announced that he would not be part of the team in 2013. This does not say that VR influenced at all but does support the long held belief that a team can easily drop a bundle when their future becomes uncertain or when they know that they are out of work, but as I said I am reserving judgement at this stage as I need to see more as for me at present JL's struggle is tyres.

JPSLotus said:

Most of us aren't oblivious to what has gone in MotoGP over the last 15 seasons, you are.

The lengths Dorna has gone to, to ensure VR is competitive seems to be completely lost on you and the rest of your brethren.

Just remember, the penalty for intentionally crashing out another rider is the same as unintentionally crashing out another rider. Why is that? Because Dorna needed their #TheGrandFinale .........

Click to expand...

Apparently Lorenzo is as oblivious to what has gone on in MotoGP over the last 15 seasons as I am. Either that or all of a sudden you believe he's adhering to some kind of gag order for not speaking up that Yamaha is sabotaging his effort and Michelin is making changes to the tires that affect him more than any other rider. Magic tires caused him to hit the curb in Q1!!

moto vudu said:

Apparently Lorenzo is as oblivious to what has gone on in MotoGP over the last 15 seasons as I am. Either that or all of a sudden you believe he's adhering to some kind of gag order for not speaking up that Yamaha is sabotaging his effort and Michelin is making changes to the tires that affect him more than any other rider. Magic tires caused him to hit the curb in Q1!!

Click to expand...

No offence but surely you jest?

You and others have been extremely critical of Lorenzo for 'involving himself' in a dispute in 2015 that involved another Yamaha employee and now you are suggesting that he speak up against his current employer and a DORNA sponsor?

You cannot have it both ways as either it is acceptable to speak up, or not.

That said I suspect that if he felt that he was on the receiving end he would stay quiet anyway due primarily to being contracted (not all riders have the power to speak up whilst contracted) and to minimise the distraction as any comments will bring with them, extreme scrutiny which he does not need at the moment.

Gaz said:

No offence but surely you jest?

You and others have been extremely critical of Lorenzo for 'involving himself' in a dispute in 2015 that involved another Yamaha employee and now you are suggesting that he speak up against his current employer and a DORNA sponsor?

You cannot have it both ways as either it is acceptable to speak up, or not.

That said I suspect that if he felt that he was on the receiving end he would stay quiet anyway due primarily to being contracted (not all riders have the power to speak up whilst contracted) and to minimise the distraction as any comments will bring with them, extreme scrutiny which he does not need at the moment.

Click to expand...

Gaz, we're talking about Germany 2016. Show me where Lorenzo claims his performance is a result of unequal treatment from Yamaha or "suspect" tires. You can't do it, have to consult with the "experts" at motogpforum.com to find that secret inside info.

moto vudu said:

Gaz, we're talking about Germany 2016. Show me where Lorenzo claims his performance is a result of unequal treatment from Yamaha or "suspect" tires. You can't do it, have to consult with the "experts" at motogpforum.com to find that secret inside info.

Click to expand...

Where do I say that he says such a thing?

My point is it is you calling for him to speak up should he feel that he is on the receiving end (ie. receiving unfair or unjust treatment), and yet the same you is amongst people who had pilloried him for speaking up against an act he felt was unjust or unfair in 2015 by an employee of the same team, the same team you now suggest he speak up against.

It would not matter what JL were to say anyway (were he to say anything) as he would be riduculed by some, called a liar by others, signs would appear calling him a ..... and yet it proves nothing as there is no way to prove it short of statements by all involved

Gaz said:

Where do I say that he says such a thing?

My point is it is you calling for him to speak up should he feel that he is on the receiving end (ie. receiving unfair or unjust treatment), and yet the same you is amongst people who had pilloried him for speaking up against an act he felt was unjust or unfair in 2015 by an employee of the same team, the same team you now suggest he speak up against.

It would not matter what JL were to say anyway (were he to say anything) as he would be riduculed by some, called a liar by others, signs would appear calling him a ..... and yet it proves nothing as there is no way to prove it short of statements by all involved

Click to expand...

You believe the reasons for his crashes today were BS? He knows the same truth that motogpforum.com knows, but doesn't want to face the backlash by speaking it?

moto vudu said:

You believe the reasons for his crashes today were BS? He knows the same truth that motogpforum.com knows, but doesn't want to face the backlash by speaking it?

Click to expand...

Where do I say the reasons for his crashes are BS?

You are simply trying to deflect once again from the point that here you call for him to speak up against his employer (should he feel the need) but last year and int this year you and others have criticised him for doing just that, speaking up against his employer and fellow employee.

If you can show me where I have typed that his reasons for crashing are BS then please do so as I have done no such thing (and will happily apologise to all things yellow if you can find it) as personally, if JL says he ...... up then to me he ...... up (same as VR said at Assen).

Gaz said:

Where do I say the reasons for his crashes are BS?

You are simply trying to deflect once again from the point that here you call for him to speak up against his employer (should he feel the need) but last year and int this year you and others have criticised him for doing just that, speaking up against his employer and fellow employee.

If you can show me where I have typed that his reasons for crashing are BS then please do so as I have done no such thing (and will happily apologise to all things yellow if you can find it) as personally, if JL says he ...... up then to me he ...... up (same as VR said at Assen).

Click to expand...

You're not following the conversation you joined. JPS said not to believe the excuses Lorenzo gave in his interview. The real reasons for Lorenzo struggling is all about Rossi, Dorna, Michelin, and Yamaha. But jury is still out if Lorenzo knows this and isn't speaking up, or if he's completely unaware.

moto vudu said:

You're not following the conversation you joined. JPS said not to believe the excuses Lorenzo gave in his interview. The real reasons for Lorenzo struggling is all about Rossi, Dorna, Michelin, and Yamaha. But jury is still out if Lorenzo knows this and isn't speaking up, or if he's completely unaware.

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No, I am following that component very well.

What you are not following is that I am alluding to double standards that are afforded some but not others.

You will actually see that I have thrown my two bobs worth into the debate about the conspiracy

I don't call for him to speak up against his employer. The point is, last year he had no issues speaking out even though he was still under Yamaha contract for this year. Now he's signed with Ducati for next year, but all of a sudden you think he's scared to speak his mind about any perceived unfair treatment at Yamaha?

Is it more likely that Lorenzo simply made mistakes during practice and qualifying or he was set up for failure?

moto vudu said:

I don't call for him to speak up against his employer. The point is, last year he had no issues speaking out even though he was still under Yamaha contract for this year. Now he's signed with Ducati for next year, but all of a sudden you think he's scared to speak his mind about any perceived unfair treatment at Yamaha?

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Don't put words where they aren't

Last year he spoke up and got ridiculed, this year you are saying that if he feels so aggrieved thence he should speak up despite your being one who took offence to his speaking up last year

Nowhere do I say he is scared to speak up but if you wish to read it that way then I cannot stop you nor change your mind as what I do allude to is that he has other things to concentrate and focus on (getting the bike sorted), public comments are not amongst them

moto vudu said:

Is it more likely that Lorenzo simply made mistakes during practice and qualifying or he was set up for failure?

Click to expand...

Did I not say that he says he ...... up so I am very happy to take his words?

Rossi has complained of front end feel this weekend (reported comments from Friday) so in all likelihood JL is simply struggling to get the front planted enough that it will turn for him.

The two crashes that I have seen (Friday and T1) seem to be early front end loses which does go some way to supporting some comments I recently (like 5 minutes ago) came across with regards to the Yamaha.

Whether the loss is a setup issue, tyre pressure, lack of heat, rider issue etc I do not know as there have been a number experiencing similar crashes at the same point (which in itself is a little unusual) so I lean to the asymetrical front not providing the feedback as the issue. Sure some riders seem unaffected but at the same time, that is the same story every week so nothing new there.

Barbera.

Just to throw some wood on a fire but whilst many may feel that Hector is undeserving of his place, he is one of only 4 riders to have completed every race in which they have started this year.

Marc Marquez (1st)
Pol Espargaro (6th)
Hector (7th)
Eugene Laverty (10th)

Like, dislike or doubt, at least he is finishing races

Gaz said:

Don't put words where they aren't

Last year he spoke up and got ridiculed, this year you are saying that if he feels so aggrieved thence he should speak up despite your being one who took offence to his speaking up last year

Nowhere do I say he is scared to speak up but if you wish to read it that way then I cannot stop you nor change your mind as what I do allude to is that he has other things to concentrate and focus on (getting the bike sorted), public comments are not amongst them



Did I not say that he says he ...... up so I am very happy to take his words?

Rossi has complained of front end feel this weekend (reported comments from Friday) so in all likelihood JL is simply struggling to get the front planted enough that it will turn for him.

The two crashes that I have seen (Friday and T1) seem to be early front end loses which does go some way to supporting some comments I recently (like 5 minutes ago) came across with regards to the Yamaha.

Whether the loss is a setup issue, tyre pressure, lack of heat, rider issue etc I do not know as there have been a number experiencing similar crashes at the same point (which in itself is a little unusual) so I lean to the asymetrical front not providing the feedback as the issue. Sure some riders seem unaffected but at the same time, that is the same story every week so nothing new there.

Click to expand...

You, JPS, Junkie, and myself are all WRONG. Mdubs is the only one that got it right. Lorenzo is just prepping for his first season with Ducati under guidance from Stoner. Tomorrow he will probably run a simulation to torpedo Dovi.

moto vudu said:

You, JPS, Junkie, and myself are all WRONG. Mdubs is the only one that got it right. Lorenzo is just prepping for his first season with Ducati under guidance from Stoner.

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Dubs is a genius ............... I do believe that he has had an insight a few times into the woes of Ducati for he has seemed somewhat 'enamoured' by them for a number of years ........... either that or he just likest he colour red.

2017 will be a very interesting year actually for the very reason of the CS/JL/Dovi/Ducati 'marriage' as I suspect that it will either go very very well, or implode.

May sounds strange but I suspect that it will work better than many suspect as JL/CS and Dovi do or are said to get along and whilst many question the Ducati I am actually very interested to see if JL changes his style throughout the off season and whether he revisits KR's farm for dirt track experience

moto vudu said:

You guys claim the tires Lorenzo was fast on at pre-season testing in Sepang have been made to disappear, but Lorenzo has 3 wins so far this year (Qatar, Le Mans, and Mugello). He earned those wins using the same tire as everyone else and he has been struggling since Catalunya using the same tire as everyone. It's HIS problem, he has to work on his ability to ride with different compounds and in changing conditions. You guys are making excuses for him that he isn't even making for himself!

Fridays crash = Pushed too hard in cold/damp conditions.
Q1 crash = Ran over the inside curb resulting in losing the front.
Q2 crash = Didn't get enough heat on the right side of the tire before pushing the limit in turn 1.

Yesterday it was "Yamaha isn't treating Lorenzo equally!". Today it's "Rossi, Dorna, & Michelin are conspiring to change the tires to affect Lorenzo even though Marquez is the one leading the championship". When it rains tomorrow it'll be "Rossi, Dorna, Michelin, Yamaha, and The Red Woman "Melisandre" have prayed for the Lord of Light to bring weather conditions that will make Lorenzo suffer."

You act like your conspiracy theory is isn't irrational and anyone who doesn't believe it is just a dumb Rossi bopper lacking your inside knowledge about what goes on behind the MotoGP curtain.

Click to expand...

What is clear is that like many of your allegiance you don't like having your opinions challenged and rapidly proceed to a default setting of argumentum ad hominem, whereas many you oppose revel in defending their opinions.

All I did was challenge your contention that manipulation of tyres with a result of suiting or not suiting particular riders is implausible (or "irrational" for that matter) while making no judgement as to whether there is a tyre conspiracy currently. As others have said, you are not in a strong position to complain about conspiracy theories being raised given the events of late season 2015 in any case.

I hadn't seen Jorge's comments when I made my earlier post, but it is certainly possible both that current tyres don't suit him as well as his previous preferred Bridgestones and that his riding errors involved him riding beyond the constraints current tyres place on him given his riding style. Again you are hardly in a position to take umbrage in relation to speculation about uncharacteristic riding errors given you started such speculation by attributing the first 2 loses to "meltdown" on Jorge's part I believe.

Jorge didn't make any public complaints about Yamaha, Bridgestone or Dorna last year btw, he took issue with Rossi, who ensured he had a lead of 7 points rather than 4 over him going into the last round by taking out another rider illegally. My speculation would be that unlike when Rossi left Ysmaha he doesn't want to denigrate them, both because it is unprofessional and because it is not completely impossible that he might one day wish to return. He also I would imagine considers that he has to make do the best he can with the tyres available and that complaining won't alter matters.

JPSLotus said:

Don't believe everything you read in the news.

I never said the tires failed, you still do not get that the tires were made for one rider first and foremost. Are you still in denial over the lack of propriety with having Colin Edwards helping Michelin develop the tires, and Rossi saying they remind him of the Michelins from years back (which were custom made for Rossi back then)? lol

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I said way back when that Michelin would be instructed to build a tire with a stiff carcass the way Rossi likes them. That's not saying he is getting anything like the SNS' that were not only tailored carcass wise, but to a specific compound to match each and every track and its race day conditions. Today's tires are made with the stiff carcass which favors Rossi over Lorenzo, but like I said back then at the same time, that stiff construction also is what Marquez favors.If they went with the soft carcass, Lorenzo and Marquez beat Rossi, if they use the harder carcass, Lorenzo drops out of the equation and Rossi only has to deal with Marquez, upping his chances considerably to win the title. If it weren't for the unexpected errors on Rossi's part and the new found maturity of Marquez while riding an inferior machine, their plan would be worhing to perfection.

povol said:

I said way back when that Michelin would be instructed to build a tire with a stiff carcass the way Rossi likes them. That's not saying he is getting anything like the SNS' that were not only tailored carcass wise, but to a specific compound to match each and every track and its race day conditions. Today's tires are made with the stiff carcass which favors Rossi over Lorenzo, but like I said back then at the same time, that stiff construction also is what Marquez favors.If they went with the soft carcass, Lorenzo and Marquez beat Rossi, if they use the harder carcass, Lorenzo drops out of the equation and Rossi only has to deal with Marquez, upping his chances considerably to win the title. If it weren't for the unexpected errors on Rossi's part and the new found maturity of Marquez while riding an inferior machine, their plan would be worhing to perfection.

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You mean YOUR plan would be working to perfection. Everything you just stated is your own personal opinion/theory and you have absolutely no factual data to back up any of it. It's not "their" plan, it's yours.