Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 20 2008, 03:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've never seen YOU charactherize Rossi's crashes as anything but choking.
Yes, but it has been as a rebuke to all the times Rossi fans as yourself have characterized other riders negatively only to praise your guy for the very same things. Hence, why my posts are buffers and a thorn in your side because I flagrantly expose the double standard, and frankly you have trouble handling it buddy.
.... even when your boy has gone down, you and your type look for excuses like poor tire performance (your favorite) or something else to explain it. And when he gets back up you guys open up entire threads on how brave and courageous he is. But Stoner does the same thing and he is a "choker", and threads are opened up about him being a choker. And you, Babel pile on saying he doesn't like to fight on the track (yet I have seen the exact opposite). Just goes to show you how out of touch of reality you are over you fanaticism for Rossi. Hell you even said Stoner had NO pressure last year, WTF are you smoking? Rossi was breathing down his neck in close races, if not at least in points at the beginning of the season. On top of the fact he was a first time factory rider on a new tire brand with the reputation of a crasher. He needed to perform, he got some success and the pressure mounted as the title became attainable. You don't thing this is pressure? Your CRAZY! Your retort is usually I'm hating on Rossi, but all I'm doing is showing you "crazy" fans how "lopsided" your perceptions are between your favorite rider and the rest. Well I'm not going away buddy.
Yes, but it has been as a rebuke to all the times Rossi fans as yourself have characterized other riders negatively only to praise your guy for the very same things. Hence, why my posts are buffers and a thorn in your side because I flagrantly expose the double standard, and frankly you have trouble handling it buddy.
.... even when your boy has gone down, you and your type look for excuses like poor tire performance (your favorite) or something else to explain it. And when he gets back up you guys open up entire threads on how brave and courageous he is. But Stoner does the same thing and he is a "choker", and threads are opened up about him being a choker. And you, Babel pile on saying he doesn't like to fight on the track (yet I have seen the exact opposite). Just goes to show you how out of touch of reality you are over you fanaticism for Rossi. Hell you even said Stoner had NO pressure last year, WTF are you smoking? Rossi was breathing down his neck in close races, if not at least in points at the beginning of the season. On top of the fact he was a first time factory rider on a new tire brand with the reputation of a crasher. He needed to perform, he got some success and the pressure mounted as the title became attainable. You don't thing this is pressure? Your CRAZY! Your retort is usually I'm hating on Rossi, but all I'm doing is showing you "crazy" fans how "lopsided" your perceptions are between your favorite rider and the rest. Well I'm not going away buddy.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 21 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>.... even when your boy has gone down, you and your type look for excuses like poor tire performance (your favorite) or something else to explain it. And when he gets back up you guys open up entire threads on how brave and courageous he is. But Stoner does the same thing and he is a "choker", and threads are opened up about him being a choker.
I hear what you say... but come on my man. Take a good look at Rossi, and then take a good look at Stoner. You can tell by their demeanor that one will crack under pressure and the other will be able to handle himself and be ok under pressure. Guess which one cracks under pressure?? THAT is what people see, Casey Stoner may be fast, BUT he can not handle the pressure. Believe me i'm not bias in any way at all because i don't even like Rossi that much, but still i respect Rossi because he can at least bring his A game and step up to the plate and challenge his opponents.
I hear what you say... but come on my man. Take a good look at Rossi, and then take a good look at Stoner. You can tell by their demeanor that one will crack under pressure and the other will be able to handle himself and be ok under pressure. Guess which one cracks under pressure?? THAT is what people see, Casey Stoner may be fast, BUT he can not handle the pressure. Believe me i'm not bias in any way at all because i don't even like Rossi that much, but still i respect Rossi because he can at least bring his A game and step up to the plate and challenge his opponents.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Aug 21 2008, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Guess which one cracks under pressure??
Well SuperShinya, if you are going to characterize it as "cracks under pressure", then I don't even need to guess. Its already fact that BOTH "cracked under pressure". Have you forgot when it counted most, Rossi crashed? This is even more egregious than what happened to Stoner. At least Stoner has a handful of races to impress us. Keep in mind Stoner was behind on point unlike Rossi who was ahead, in the race to determine the title! Now that is pressure, and since YOU are characterizing it as "cracking under pressure" then I would lean toward Rossi having that distinction, NOT Stoner. Don't forget, the season is NOT over. Hell if the unlikely happened, and Stoner ended up winning the title, then we could s ay this crash was moot. UNLIKE Rossi, who could NOT get it back in a following race.
Like I said, YOU and a few want to call it "cracking under pressure" and "choking" OK THEN. But please, take it like a man when the same applies to others, like Rossi (who you say you don't particularly like).
Well SuperShinya, if you are going to characterize it as "cracks under pressure", then I don't even need to guess. Its already fact that BOTH "cracked under pressure". Have you forgot when it counted most, Rossi crashed? This is even more egregious than what happened to Stoner. At least Stoner has a handful of races to impress us. Keep in mind Stoner was behind on point unlike Rossi who was ahead, in the race to determine the title! Now that is pressure, and since YOU are characterizing it as "cracking under pressure" then I would lean toward Rossi having that distinction, NOT Stoner. Don't forget, the season is NOT over. Hell if the unlikely happened, and Stoner ended up winning the title, then we could s ay this crash was moot. UNLIKE Rossi, who could NOT get it back in a following race.
Like I said, YOU and a few want to call it "cracking under pressure" and "choking" OK THEN. But please, take it like a man when the same applies to others, like Rossi (who you say you don't particularly like).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 21 2008, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well SuperShinya, if you are going to characterize it as "cracks under pressure", then I don't even need to guess. Its already fact that BOTH "cracked under pressure". Have you forgot when it counted most, Rossi crashed? This is even more egregious than what happened to Stoner. At least Stoner has a handful of races to impress us. Keep in mind Stoner was behind on point unlike Rossi who was ahead, in the race to determine the title! Now that is pressure, and since YOU are characterizing it as "cracking under pressure" then I would lean toward Rossi having that distinction, NOT Stoner. Don't forget, the season is NOT over. Hell if the unlikely happened, and Stoner ended up winning the title, then we could s ay this crash was moot. UNLIKE Rossi, who could NOT get it back in a following race.
Like I said, YOU and a few want to call it "cracking under pressure" and "choking" OK THEN. But please, take it like a man when the same applies to others, like Rossi (who you say you don't particularly like).
OK...i will ask you a very simple simple question. IF Rossi and Stoner was to go head to head, one on one battle, just the 2 of them.... who would you put your money on??
That's what i thought.
Like I said, YOU and a few want to call it "cracking under pressure" and "choking" OK THEN. But please, take it like a man when the same applies to others, like Rossi (who you say you don't particularly like).
OK...i will ask you a very simple simple question. IF Rossi and Stoner was to go head to head, one on one battle, just the 2 of them.... who would you put your money on??
That's what i thought.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Aug 22 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK...i will ask you a very simple simple question. IF Rossi and Stoner was to go head to head, one on one battle, just the 2 of them.... who do you think will come up on top??
That's what i thought.
Err..It's been pretty evenly matched so far in the battles. I don't think either are chokers.
Stoner Qatar 2007 (Stoner stuck it back it Rossi's inside on almost every pass)
Stoner Shanghai 2007(Rossi ran off trying to chase down Casey)
Stoner Catalunya 2007(We all remember that race)
Rossi Laguna Seca 2008 (Stoner lost it under braking)
Rossi Assen 2007 (Rossi passed him at the right time and make a break away)
Neither are chokers. Yes, they are human and can make mistakes, but that doesn't make them chokers. To label either of them chokers for being human and having the expectation that they never make mistakes is simply unrealistic.
IMHO, Rossi is best in these situations but that doesn't magically make Stoner weak. Put it this way, Rossi is 101% in battles, Stoner 100%. Both can win on any given day, but I'd probably give the edge to Rossi.
That's what i thought.
Err..It's been pretty evenly matched so far in the battles. I don't think either are chokers.
Stoner Qatar 2007 (Stoner stuck it back it Rossi's inside on almost every pass)
Stoner Shanghai 2007(Rossi ran off trying to chase down Casey)
Stoner Catalunya 2007(We all remember that race)
Rossi Laguna Seca 2008 (Stoner lost it under braking)
Rossi Assen 2007 (Rossi passed him at the right time and make a break away)
Neither are chokers. Yes, they are human and can make mistakes, but that doesn't make them chokers. To label either of them chokers for being human and having the expectation that they never make mistakes is simply unrealistic.
IMHO, Rossi is best in these situations but that doesn't magically make Stoner weak. Put it this way, Rossi is 101% in battles, Stoner 100%. Both can win on any given day, but I'd probably give the edge to Rossi.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Aug 22 2008, 05:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I hear what you say... but come on my man. Take a good look at Rossi, and then take a good look at Stoner. You can tell by their demeanor that one will crack under pressure and the other will be able to handle himself and be ok under pressure. Guess which one cracks under pressure?? THAT is what people see, Casey Stoner may be fast, BUT he can not handle the pressure. Believe me i'm not bias in any way at all because i don't even like Rossi that much, but still i respect Rossi because he can at least bring his A game and step up to the plate and challenge his opponents.
I am wondering how one can tell from the demeanor (be it around the pits or in media conferences) whether one will 'crack' under pressure (and this within terms of this discussion). Many riders who have been world champions have been extremely highly strung (some would say 'precious') individuals when around the track environment.
IMO, how one 'carries' themselves, or 'presents' does not make it more readily identifiable that they may have a flaw that will cause underperforming under certain circumstances.
If alternately you refer to CS' comments after Laguna Seca as a part justification of 'demeanor', than many champions have behaved similarly yet not been 'broken' by their competitors.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Aug 22 2008, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK...i will ask you a very simple simple question. IF Rossi and Stoner was to go head to head, one on one battle, just the 2 of them.... who would you put your money on??
That's what i thought.
This would all depend on a number of things such as track, conditions, bikes etc and I would suggest would be surprisingly even across the entire range and IMO would prove nothing in the wider scheme of things.
VR will go down in history as one of (if not the) all time greats based solely on the record he has created on the track.
CS may well go down in history as an all time great as he has far more time on his side to build the record that would be required to be able to be mentioned in that illustrious company.
For an answer, ask me in 15 years.
Garry
I am wondering how one can tell from the demeanor (be it around the pits or in media conferences) whether one will 'crack' under pressure (and this within terms of this discussion). Many riders who have been world champions have been extremely highly strung (some would say 'precious') individuals when around the track environment.
IMO, how one 'carries' themselves, or 'presents' does not make it more readily identifiable that they may have a flaw that will cause underperforming under certain circumstances.
If alternately you refer to CS' comments after Laguna Seca as a part justification of 'demeanor', than many champions have behaved similarly yet not been 'broken' by their competitors.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Aug 22 2008, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK...i will ask you a very simple simple question. IF Rossi and Stoner was to go head to head, one on one battle, just the 2 of them.... who would you put your money on??
That's what i thought.
This would all depend on a number of things such as track, conditions, bikes etc and I would suggest would be surprisingly even across the entire range and IMO would prove nothing in the wider scheme of things.
VR will go down in history as one of (if not the) all time greats based solely on the record he has created on the track.
CS may well go down in history as an all time great as he has far more time on his side to build the record that would be required to be able to be mentioned in that illustrious company.
For an answer, ask me in 15 years.
Garry
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Aug 22 2008, 07:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK...i will ask you a very simple simple question. IF Rossi and Stoner was to go head to head, one on one battle, just the 2 of them.... who would you put your money on??
That's what i thought.
scince stoner and rossi have been racing each other in the same class, it stands at 1 - 0 to stoner....
sure, its probably going to be 1-1 by the end of the season but bear in mind that rossi is vastly experienced, and stoner is not....
so, lets not think that opinions are facts....
That's what i thought.
scince stoner and rossi have been racing each other in the same class, it stands at 1 - 0 to stoner....
sure, its probably going to be 1-1 by the end of the season but bear in mind that rossi is vastly experienced, and stoner is not....
so, lets not think that opinions are facts....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2008, 07:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, but it has been as a rebuke to all the times Rossi fans as yourself have characterized other riders negatively only to praise your guy for the very same things. Hence, why my posts are buffers and a thorn in your side because I flagrantly expose the double standard, and frankly you have trouble handling it buddy.
So, what you in effect say is that double standard is ok for you but not for me. It's ok for you to claim chocking just because I'm claiming it's not. Strange. Btw. feel free to claim stoner were choking as I claim he didn't.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>.... even when your boy has gone down, you and your type look for excuses like poor tire performance (your favorite) or something else to explain it. When I find a reason to believe so I might talk about tires, but I think you will find absolutely no such remarks regarding Assen this year or Sachsenring last year. That's two full seasons worth of crashes without blaming them on the tires.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And when he gets back up you guys open up entire threads on how brave and courageous he is.
I know it bugs you that there still are a few Rossi fans around here, especially as most Hayden fans vaporized last year, but get used to it. We will stay, even much longer than Rossi will stay in MotoGP
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>But Stoner does the same thing and he is a "choker", and threads are opened up about him being a choker.
I think you will find other fans (Hayden) among those but I'm not there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And you, Babel pile on saying he doesn't like to fight on the track (yet I have seen the exact opposite). Just goes to show you how out of touch of reality you are over you fanaticism for Rossi.
While I do like Racers instead of winners it's not my idea or description of stoner in the first place. I think it was Julian Ryder or another well known journalist that put fans and riders into those two categories. He ranked Stoner the number two most typical Winner after Pedrosa, and I think he proved that beyond doubt at LC and later on Brno.
When you characterize my rather uncontroversial standing on that it should make others wonder who's the fanatic here Jumkie. Not that this is anything new, you kept on nagging about the tire thing at Le Mans last year to a degree that it became ridiculous despite the fact that you had the answers coming into the tread after 3 days while from our side it was speculations as to why it went wrong right after the race and before we got the information that Michelin had selected wrong tires. Sounds familiar?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Hell you even said Stoner had NO pressure last year, WTF are you smoking? Rossi was breathing down his neck in close races, if not at least in points at the beginning of the season. On top of the fact he was a first time factory rider on a new tire brand with the reputation of a crasher. He needed to perform, he got some success and the pressure mounted as the title became attainable. You don't thing this is pressure?
Well let's see: Rossi breathing down his neck through the turns then Stoner blowing away at the straight. As a Racer I would consider the Ducati power quite an effective pressure releaser. I'll give him full credit for making that bike go as well through the corners as he did, but he did that out of skill not pressure, but I'll give credit to Ducati for the power. I just know by my self that if I were Stoner at Quatar and China I would have been laughing inside my helmet half way through the race. Of course the start is always tense but as the race develops and you discover that that you can hold of your competition quite easily or even pass them just as easy that's not pressure, it's joy.
His crashing and underperformance of 2006 would act just as much as a pressure dampener. He was contracted while crashing and although everyone hoped for some improvement I think we both can agree that he did more than what was expected. But I'll agree that he must have felt a certain pressure to stay on the track and to perform before the season started, but that pressure probably evaporated as he won at Quatar. So in most ways his results from 2006 and his reputation as a crasher did not mount any pressure on him, rather the opposite, the expectations were lowered because of that and he were expected to continue to crash.
As the case so often are when it happens, surprise wins, and performance way above expectation are a result of everything coming together and the performer ride on a wave without expectations, or more correctly, way above any expectations, releasing rater than mounting pressure. The championship were a future goal and very little more until it more or less were a reality. I would call that relatively unpressured. YMMV.
This year,on the other hand the pressure and expectations are very real. Both his own, his teams, and his fan's expectations are very much there. Makes me wonder, maybe he did choke after all.
The funny part is that you take any and all of my opinions as some kind of credit/advantage/any positive to Rossi and equally negative towards other riders. As I've said before, it looks like you have a lot stronger obsession around Rossi and his fans than any of us can ever hope to measure up against.
So, what you in effect say is that double standard is ok for you but not for me. It's ok for you to claim chocking just because I'm claiming it's not. Strange. Btw. feel free to claim stoner were choking as I claim he didn't.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>.... even when your boy has gone down, you and your type look for excuses like poor tire performance (your favorite) or something else to explain it. When I find a reason to believe so I might talk about tires, but I think you will find absolutely no such remarks regarding Assen this year or Sachsenring last year. That's two full seasons worth of crashes without blaming them on the tires.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And when he gets back up you guys open up entire threads on how brave and courageous he is.
I know it bugs you that there still are a few Rossi fans around here, especially as most Hayden fans vaporized last year, but get used to it. We will stay, even much longer than Rossi will stay in MotoGP
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>But Stoner does the same thing and he is a "choker", and threads are opened up about him being a choker.
I think you will find other fans (Hayden) among those but I'm not there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And you, Babel pile on saying he doesn't like to fight on the track (yet I have seen the exact opposite). Just goes to show you how out of touch of reality you are over you fanaticism for Rossi.
While I do like Racers instead of winners it's not my idea or description of stoner in the first place. I think it was Julian Ryder or another well known journalist that put fans and riders into those two categories. He ranked Stoner the number two most typical Winner after Pedrosa, and I think he proved that beyond doubt at LC and later on Brno.
When you characterize my rather uncontroversial standing on that it should make others wonder who's the fanatic here Jumkie. Not that this is anything new, you kept on nagging about the tire thing at Le Mans last year to a degree that it became ridiculous despite the fact that you had the answers coming into the tread after 3 days while from our side it was speculations as to why it went wrong right after the race and before we got the information that Michelin had selected wrong tires. Sounds familiar?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Hell you even said Stoner had NO pressure last year, WTF are you smoking? Rossi was breathing down his neck in close races, if not at least in points at the beginning of the season. On top of the fact he was a first time factory rider on a new tire brand with the reputation of a crasher. He needed to perform, he got some success and the pressure mounted as the title became attainable. You don't thing this is pressure?
Well let's see: Rossi breathing down his neck through the turns then Stoner blowing away at the straight. As a Racer I would consider the Ducati power quite an effective pressure releaser. I'll give him full credit for making that bike go as well through the corners as he did, but he did that out of skill not pressure, but I'll give credit to Ducati for the power. I just know by my self that if I were Stoner at Quatar and China I would have been laughing inside my helmet half way through the race. Of course the start is always tense but as the race develops and you discover that that you can hold of your competition quite easily or even pass them just as easy that's not pressure, it's joy.
His crashing and underperformance of 2006 would act just as much as a pressure dampener. He was contracted while crashing and although everyone hoped for some improvement I think we both can agree that he did more than what was expected. But I'll agree that he must have felt a certain pressure to stay on the track and to perform before the season started, but that pressure probably evaporated as he won at Quatar. So in most ways his results from 2006 and his reputation as a crasher did not mount any pressure on him, rather the opposite, the expectations were lowered because of that and he were expected to continue to crash.
As the case so often are when it happens, surprise wins, and performance way above expectation are a result of everything coming together and the performer ride on a wave without expectations, or more correctly, way above any expectations, releasing rater than mounting pressure. The championship were a future goal and very little more until it more or less were a reality. I would call that relatively unpressured. YMMV.
This year,on the other hand the pressure and expectations are very real. Both his own, his teams, and his fan's expectations are very much there. Makes me wonder, maybe he did choke after all.
The funny part is that you take any and all of my opinions as some kind of credit/advantage/any positive to Rossi and equally negative towards other riders. As I've said before, it looks like you have a lot stronger obsession around Rossi and his fans than any of us can ever hope to measure up against.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Aug 22 2008, 06:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I hear what you say... but come on my man. Take a good look at Rossi, and then take a good look at Stoner. You can tell by their demeanor that one will crack under pressure and the other will be able to handle himself and be ok under pressure. Guess which one cracks under pressure?? THAT is what people see, Casey Stoner may be fast, BUT he can not handle the pressure. Believe me i'm not bias in any way at all because i don't even like Rossi that much, but still i respect Rossi because he can at least bring his A game and step up to the plate and challenge his opponents.
Jumkie is right, THERE IS ALOT OF DRUG TAKING GOING ON HEY...
You say Stoner cant race under pressure have you forgotten Qatar 07, Spain 07?
I can think of a few times Rossi has crashed under no pressure at all. Assen this yr, and lets not forget the BIG .... UP OF ALL TIME in Valencia 06? All he had to do is finish ahead of Hayden and the title was his.What did he do? HE CRACKED UNDER PRESSURE.
Rossi one weakness is he is .... under the Gun and he will do it again.
I am a Stoner fan and i try not to be Bias in my views but come on.
Jumkie is right, THERE IS ALOT OF DRUG TAKING GOING ON HEY...
You say Stoner cant race under pressure have you forgotten Qatar 07, Spain 07?
I can think of a few times Rossi has crashed under no pressure at all. Assen this yr, and lets not forget the BIG .... UP OF ALL TIME in Valencia 06? All he had to do is finish ahead of Hayden and the title was his.What did he do? HE CRACKED UNDER PRESSURE.
Rossi one weakness is he is .... under the Gun and he will do it again.
I am a Stoner fan and i try not to be Bias in my views but come on.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stoner27 @ Aug 22 2008, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie is right, THERE IS ALOT OF DRUG TAKING GOING ON HEY...
You say Stoner cant race under pressure have you forgotten Qatar 07, Spain 07?
I can think of a few times Rossi has crashed under no pressure at all. Assen this yr, and lets not forget the BIG .... UP OF ALL TIME in Valencia 06? All he had to do is finish ahead of Hayden and the title was his.What did he do? HE CRACKED UNDER PRESSURE.
Rossi one weakness is he is .... under the Gun and he will do it again.
I am a Stoner fan and i try not to be Bias in my views but come on.
wrong, rossi's weakness is good starts, ans which spanish race are you referring to ?
this thread is about whether stoner choked or not so why turn it into a rossi vs stoner thread ?
You say Stoner cant race under pressure have you forgotten Qatar 07, Spain 07?
I can think of a few times Rossi has crashed under no pressure at all. Assen this yr, and lets not forget the BIG .... UP OF ALL TIME in Valencia 06? All he had to do is finish ahead of Hayden and the title was his.What did he do? HE CRACKED UNDER PRESSURE.
Rossi one weakness is he is .... under the Gun and he will do it again.
I am a Stoner fan and i try not to be Bias in my views but come on.
wrong, rossi's weakness is good starts, ans which spanish race are you referring to ?
this thread is about whether stoner choked or not so why turn it into a rossi vs stoner thread ?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stoner27 @ Aug 22 2008, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi one weakness is he is .... under the Gun and he will do it again.
I am a Stoner fan and i try not to be Bias in my views but come on.
With respects, Rossi is many things to many people (both good, bad and indifferent), but one thing he is not is '.... under the gun'. You don't win the number or races and titles he has won if you are '.... under the gun' as you suggest.
There will definitely be times in the future where VR may well make an error that costs him a race or an even larger prize, but as they say, that is racing and sometimes it bites bad.
Certainly VR has had his failures and probably he would admit that Valencia was the greatest (in terms of over all effect) but it should also be said that he did not have to finish in front of Hayden but within 5 points (ffrom memory). And besides, who cares about that race, Bayliss won.
Garry
I am a Stoner fan and i try not to be Bias in my views but come on.
With respects, Rossi is many things to many people (both good, bad and indifferent), but one thing he is not is '.... under the gun'. You don't win the number or races and titles he has won if you are '.... under the gun' as you suggest.
There will definitely be times in the future where VR may well make an error that costs him a race or an even larger prize, but as they say, that is racing and sometimes it bites bad.
Certainly VR has had his failures and probably he would admit that Valencia was the greatest (in terms of over all effect) but it should also be said that he did not have to finish in front of Hayden but within 5 points (ffrom memory). And besides, who cares about that race, Bayliss won.
Garry
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 22 2008, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>wrong, rossi's weakness is good starts, ans which spanish race are you referring to ?
this thread is about whether stoner choked or not so why turn it into a rossi vs stoner thread ?
I think the problem with this is that Rossi is arguably (and a bloody good argument at that) the best rider in the world.
This in turn sets a benchmark. A point or standard against which others are measured.
It isn’t really a Rossi v Stoner argument. However if one was to say – he doesn’t choke because Sylvain Guintoli does this at such and such a race it would be sort of meaningless because Sylvia is a piff and nothing either Stoner or Rossi does can be compared to his effeminate and ambulatory style on the bike.
These guys are racing at the leading edge and it isn’t Rossi v Stoner it’s Rossi compared to Stoner. If one takes out comparisons and looks at it in the vacuum his record on the Ducati is still good, 1 race crashed out of and a couple with run offs but recovery.
this thread is about whether stoner choked or not so why turn it into a rossi vs stoner thread ?
I think the problem with this is that Rossi is arguably (and a bloody good argument at that) the best rider in the world.
This in turn sets a benchmark. A point or standard against which others are measured.
It isn’t really a Rossi v Stoner argument. However if one was to say – he doesn’t choke because Sylvain Guintoli does this at such and such a race it would be sort of meaningless because Sylvia is a piff and nothing either Stoner or Rossi does can be compared to his effeminate and ambulatory style on the bike.
These guys are racing at the leading edge and it isn’t Rossi v Stoner it’s Rossi compared to Stoner. If one takes out comparisons and looks at it in the vacuum his record on the Ducati is still good, 1 race crashed out of and a couple with run offs but recovery.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 22 2008, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>wrong, rossi's weakness is good starts, ans which spanish race are you referring to ?
this thread is about whether stoner choked or not so why turn it into a rossi vs stoner thread ?
He is refering to Catalunya '07 where all rossi could put up of threats were going sideways in the sharpest lefthander with no grip. Stoner passed every time out of the trun. Yeah, and Rossi did pass at the end of the straight once, probably after a ...... exit of stoners and an early braking, convinced that Rossi were miles behind. The outcome was however decided long before the race end. It was more or less like China '07, only a "race" in the imagination. If you like, much the same as Rossi in his Honda days. "Close" races until the last lap. We get to see some "racing" but the outcome is 99% decided before race start. So if Stoner had any pressure in those races so were Rossi in 50% of his races in his Honda days. It's all bullocks of course. Only the likes of Jumkie like to imagine pressure in those races.
this thread is about whether stoner choked or not so why turn it into a rossi vs stoner thread ?
He is refering to Catalunya '07 where all rossi could put up of threats were going sideways in the sharpest lefthander with no grip. Stoner passed every time out of the trun. Yeah, and Rossi did pass at the end of the straight once, probably after a ...... exit of stoners and an early braking, convinced that Rossi were miles behind. The outcome was however decided long before the race end. It was more or less like China '07, only a "race" in the imagination. If you like, much the same as Rossi in his Honda days. "Close" races until the last lap. We get to see some "racing" but the outcome is 99% decided before race start. So if Stoner had any pressure in those races so were Rossi in 50% of his races in his Honda days. It's all bullocks of course. Only the likes of Jumkie like to imagine pressure in those races.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 22 2008, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>With respects, Rossi is many things to many people (both good, bad and indifferent), but one thing he is not is '.... under the gun'. You don't win the number or races and titles he has won if you are '.... under the gun' as you suggest.
There will definitely be times in the future where VR may well make an error that costs him a race or an even larger prize, but as they say, that is racing and sometimes it bites bad.
Certainly VR has had his failures and probably he would admit that Valencia was the greatest (in terms of over all effect) but it should also be said that he did not have to finish in front of Hayden but within 5 points (ffrom memory). And besides, who cares about that race, Bayliss won.
I agree with that allthough I think we have to look at the psykie? of these guys to see what's going on. Rossi and Stoner have one thing in common and that is the will to win. I suspect their competetivness are way above any other in the field and they go quite a stretch to win both of them. Rossi take passes we've seen in LC and Jerez, while Stoner are willing to risk it all by lapping at record braking pace to increase the distance between him and the rest as much as possible. Different ways, same goal. Victory and domination.
There will definitely be times in the future where VR may well make an error that costs him a race or an even larger prize, but as they say, that is racing and sometimes it bites bad.
Certainly VR has had his failures and probably he would admit that Valencia was the greatest (in terms of over all effect) but it should also be said that he did not have to finish in front of Hayden but within 5 points (ffrom memory). And besides, who cares about that race, Bayliss won.
I agree with that allthough I think we have to look at the psykie? of these guys to see what's going on. Rossi and Stoner have one thing in common and that is the will to win. I suspect their competetivness are way above any other in the field and they go quite a stretch to win both of them. Rossi take passes we've seen in LC and Jerez, while Stoner are willing to risk it all by lapping at record braking pace to increase the distance between him and the rest as much as possible. Different ways, same goal. Victory and domination.
Come on now we all know Stoner didn't choke...HIS BIKE CHOKED ON A STONE!!!. A small one but nevertheless indigestible. Maybe a bigger one would have stayed out and a smaller one would have sailed right through the engine no problem...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 22 2008, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with that allthough I think we have to look at the psykie? of these guys to see what's going on. Rossi and Stoner have one thing in common and that is the will to win. I suspect their competetivness are way above any other in the field and they go quite a stretch to win both of them. Rossi take passes we've seen in LC and Jerez, while Stoner are willing to risk it all by lapping at record braking pace to increase the distance between him and the rest as much as possible. Different ways, same goal. Victory and domination.
Agreed, although I do think that a few others have the same 'competitive nature', but that at this stage due to various aspects and influences we aren't seeing it (I include Lorenzo, Dovi and no doubt to the chagrin of many Pedders).
In many ways CS reminds me of many a rider from the 'old school' who just got on the bike and went balls out at top speed the whole time. If he managed to stay on, upright and under control he finishes at or near the front, if he fails then he ends up visiting Dr Costa.
Personally (and yes as an Aussie I do have a bias) I thoroughly enjoy the way that CS manhandles that Ducati around the circuit. To watch the fight that goes on lap after lap as the bike does everything possible to throw him off while he hangs on for what appears dear life and masters it, is (for me) damn exciting viewing.
As for VR, well what needs to be said.
Garry
Agreed, although I do think that a few others have the same 'competitive nature', but that at this stage due to various aspects and influences we aren't seeing it (I include Lorenzo, Dovi and no doubt to the chagrin of many Pedders).
In many ways CS reminds me of many a rider from the 'old school' who just got on the bike and went balls out at top speed the whole time. If he managed to stay on, upright and under control he finishes at or near the front, if he fails then he ends up visiting Dr Costa.
Personally (and yes as an Aussie I do have a bias) I thoroughly enjoy the way that CS manhandles that Ducati around the circuit. To watch the fight that goes on lap after lap as the bike does everything possible to throw him off while he hangs on for what appears dear life and masters it, is (for me) damn exciting viewing.
As for VR, well what needs to be said.
Garry
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 22 2008, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agreed, although I do think that a few others have the same 'competitive nature', but that at this stage due to various aspects and influences we aren't seeing it (I include Lorenzo, Dovi and no doubt to the chagrin of many Pedders).
I don't know about Pedrosa, or more correctly I don't think he has that will to win. That is the one that come out from your hart, not from talent. As for Dove I truly don't know but with Lorenzo I think you might be right.
Dovi is somewhat blank page. He had these fights with Lorenzo but I'm not fully convinced, but would be happy if he turns out like a true fighter. Lorenzo does have the spirit unless it has been broken during all his injuries this season. If so that would be a shame. Another fighter is undoubtobly Hayden but at many others he's not able to join the fight.
But still I belive Stoner and Rossi are special in that regard. Rossi, a five time champion with nothing more to prove signed at two year contract with Yamaha. That is two more years fighting for two more titles, nothing less. That says heaps about a will to win and a love for the sport. After all, what else is left? And I truly belive Stoner have that same fire and can become and multi campion before he retire.
I don't know about Pedrosa, or more correctly I don't think he has that will to win. That is the one that come out from your hart, not from talent. As for Dove I truly don't know but with Lorenzo I think you might be right.
Dovi is somewhat blank page. He had these fights with Lorenzo but I'm not fully convinced, but would be happy if he turns out like a true fighter. Lorenzo does have the spirit unless it has been broken during all his injuries this season. If so that would be a shame. Another fighter is undoubtobly Hayden but at many others he's not able to join the fight.
But still I belive Stoner and Rossi are special in that regard. Rossi, a five time champion with nothing more to prove signed at two year contract with Yamaha. That is two more years fighting for two more titles, nothing less. That says heaps about a will to win and a love for the sport. After all, what else is left? And I truly belive Stoner have that same fire and can become and multi campion before he retire.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
---
I understand 'choking' as something like cracking under pressure, being unable to perform normally especially when expectations or stakes are high. That is to say, 'choking' is definitely a sub-standard behavior in any competitive or stressful environment.
If that is correct, then those among us who lightly call riders like Rossi or Stoner 'chokers' must be kidding, or are blinded by their own passion/dislike for one or the other, or simply do not realize what it takes to do what these guys do.
I understand 'choking' as something like cracking under pressure, being unable to perform normally especially when expectations or stakes are high. That is to say, 'choking' is definitely a sub-standard behavior in any competitive or stressful environment.
If that is correct, then those among us who lightly call riders like Rossi or Stoner 'chokers' must be kidding, or are blinded by their own passion/dislike for one or the other, or simply do not realize what it takes to do what these guys do.
Similar threads
