Does anyone actually belive that Stoner choked under pressure???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 22 2008, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>---
I understand 'choking' as something like cracking under pressure, being unable to perform normally especially when expectations or stakes are high. That is to say, 'choking' is definitely a sub-standard behavior in any competitive or stressful environment.

If that is correct, then those among us who lightly call riders like Rossi or Stoner 'chokers' must be kidding, or are blinded by their own passion/dislike for one or the other, or simply do not realize what it takes to do what these guys do.
+1 and very senceible

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 22 2008, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>---
I understand 'choking' as something like cracking under pressure, being unable to perform normally especially when expectations or stakes are high. That is to say, 'choking' is definitely a sub-standard behavior in any competitive or stressful environment.

If that is correct, then those among us who lightly call riders like Rossi or Stoner 'chokers' must be kidding, or are blinded by their own passion/dislike for one or the other, or simply do not realize what it takes to do what these guys do.

I agree with that one, but as I've been talking about the competetivness/ego of these guys and that victory is the only good result, they will race very hard for that win. Sometimes they settle down for damage limitation but never without trying and when it's even they don't settle for damage limitation, they go for the win. That's what happened at LC this year and thats what happened in China '07. They want to win and are willing to take a high risk. That's nothing like choking.

Not really a Casey fan by any means but him supposedly choking at Brno and same for Rossi Valencia 06 actually is just bull.It was just what could have happened the millions of other times they were pushing theyre bikes so hard in a race,it was just an unlucky lowside.How many of those will casey have saved before.Casey has proved time and again that Valentino cant pressure him into a mistake just by sititng on his tail like he could with Sete or Max,example Catalunya 2007 if thatd been Max or Sete Vale had been fighting theyd have lost,they just would.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thom @ Aug 22 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not really a Casey fan by any means but him supposedly choking at Brno and same for Rossi Valencia 06 actually is just bull.It was just what could have happened the millions of other times they were pushing theyre bikes so hard in a race,it was just an unlucky lowside.How many of those will casey have saved before.Casey has proved time and again that Valentino cant pressure him into a mistake just by sititng on his tail like he could with Sete or Max,example Catalunya 2007 if thatd been Max or Sete Vale had been fighting theyd have lost,they just would.
Your right. It's just those who look to find a reason to bash Stoner or really anyone but Vale. Valentino is awesome and there is no doubt. But saying this and that about other riders especially last years champ is just stupid and it shows the intelligence of those who write such things. Just go back and have a look at this thread and how bad it is. Lot's of crap.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Aug 22 2008, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your right. It's just those who look to find a reason to bash Stoner or really anyone but Vale. Valentino is awesome and there is no doubt. But saying this and that about other riders especially last years champ is just stupid and it shows the intelligence of those who write such things. Just go back and have a look at this thread and how bad it is. Lot's of crap.
ding ding ding ding. double standard alert

so its not rossi bashing to say he choked at valencia 06.. where all guilty of banter and bashing mate !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 22 2008, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ding ding ding ding. double standard alert

so its not rossi bashing to say he choked at valencia 06.. where all guilty of banter and bashing mate !
I'm not saying he choked at valencia. I'm saying if you can say Stoner choked then you have to say rossi choked blah blah blah. I had said initially that he crashed like anyone usually else does unless he was pushing really hard or was randy depuniet. Cause he just chokes all the time regardless.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 22 2008, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so its not rossi bashing to say he choked at valencia 06.. where all guilty of banter and bashing mate !

Yes, I agree we are guilty of "banter and bashing." The thing is a few here actually believe the .... they are saying. We love the banter part, it keeps things fun and lively.

Bro, I think what the guy is saying is that this thread was started to examine the idea of Stoner as a "choker". But as is usually the case, a few Rossi fans come out and say yeah, he is a choker, and Stoner "cracks under pressure" and that this was causeD because "Stoner doesn't like to fight" (babel); but to contrast their claim and to rebuke their take on the issue, then its been pointed out that Rossi did the same. In other words, fighting fire with fire. But I think you will see that a few level headed people, like you and me (& Garry, etc) are saying Stoner did NOT "choke" and he is up for a fight. So its NOT a double standard, but rather using the very same words that people like Val46, Babel, ParcFerme, SuperShinya etc. are using to characterize Stoner (some decidedly Rossi fans). Even though Babel has tried his best to backpedal a bit, he still thinks wining a title is done without pressure! How out of touch of reality do you have to be to think this? That is why it so easy to debate such a weak position as he is fond of presenting.

So I'm saying, if you are going to characterize Stoner's crash this way (which I disagree with) then you must also accept it being called Rossi "choking" when he crashed. We don't even have to go back to Valencia 06; just look at Assen this year. Rossi was stuck in the pack, seeing Stoner getting away, he pushed and took himself out (as well as DePuniet) due to pressure.

So here again is my take. I agree with Gary. Its just simply an error at this level that unfortunatley took him out, as did Rossi, Toesland (at his home GP) etc. They pushed beyond the limit, that's it. Now again, if you want to call this "choking, cracking, avoinding a fight" (babel), then you must accept when your boy ..... up too. Something that Babel and company hate to do. Now this IS a DOUBLE STANDARD.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2008, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, I agree we are guilty of "banter and bashing." The thing is a few here actually believe the .... they are saying. We love the banter part, it keeps things fun and lively.

Bro, I think what the guy is saying is that this thread was started to examine the idea of Stoner as a "choker". But as is usually the case, a few Rossi fans come out and say yeah, he is a choker, and Stoner "cracks under pressure" and that this was causeD because "Stoner doesn't like to fight" (babel); but to contrast their claim and to rebuke their take on the issue, then its been pointed out that Rossi did the same. In other words, fighting fire with fire.
Strange thing you do there. Start a fire-fighting fire in '06 to stop a fire in '08. Imperessive forsight there Jumkie.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>But I think you will see that a few level headed people, like you and me (& Garry, etc) are saying Stoner did NOT "choke" and he is up for a fight. So its NOT a double standard, but rather using the very same words that people like Val46, Babel, ParcFerme, SuperShinya etc. are using to characterize Stoner (some decidedly Rossi fans). Even though Babel has tried his best to backpedal a bit, he still thinks wining a title is done without pressure! How out of touch of reality do you have to be to think this? That is why it so easy to debate such a weak position as he is fond of presenting.
What a load of crap Jumkie. I know you are pulling my leg but you know as well as me that there hasn't been an inch of backpedaling from my side. You on the other hand refuse to go into a discussion as soon as I give you a well reasoned and documented answer and instead use a dumbed down reference to your abandoned discussions in posts like this with . How far are you going to sink in your pathetic debate techniques?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>So here again is my take. I agree with Gary. Its just simply an error at this level that unfortunatley took him out, as did Rossi, Toesland (at his home GP) etc. They pushed beyond the limit, that's it. Now again, if you want to call this "choking, cracking, avoinding a fight" (babel), then you must accept when your boy ..... up too. Something that Babel and company hate to do. Now this IS a DOUBLE STANDARD.
Cute Jumkie, problem is that you will have problems getting anyone to buy that rossi ever did much to avoid a fight. And you will find nowhere where I defended any such avoidance, or a crash from the lead for that matter, simply because neither excist.
You may disagree but to call Stoner a winner as oposed to a fighter isn't really controverisal at all. There is engouh documentation to make it a valid statement and it's not really a dig at Stoner. It does however give a reasonable explanation for why he crashed at Bruno from the lead. And IF you were right, that stoner should have more speed to keep Rossi off it is really unforgivable to crash when in the lead. I find it plausible that he pushed to hard because he wanted and needed that breathing space and it fits the theory of him being a winner as oposed to a racer. So that is my explanation for why he crashed from the front, what's yours? Choking?

Well if it makes any difference in the discussion, Stoner/Ducati know why he crashed. Basically Stoner had ridden beyond the limit of the bike. Ducati instantly made the changes and he was fast(er) in the practice session afterwards.

MOTOGP.com
LINK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>`We made a big change which would have taken away the element of what caused the crash in the race. We´ve been leaning this bike over a long way, always scraping the footpegs. We took out that factor by changing the setup and the overall geometry.`Now we can ride more on the bigger part of the tyre, which is safer and should give us more feedback,´ added Stoner in his post-test analysis.

`In any case, I´m a bit disappointed with the weekend but it is my only crash with a Ducati in a race. We´ve got to be pretty happy with how things have gone up to now.

This doesn't make any sense though. Why would they not make these changes before. He said they were always grinding the pegs and everyone knows what happens if you keep pushing down on the pegs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 22 2008, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>what's yours?
Babel, u suffer from poor logic and a grip on reality, but most you lack the ability to debate and carry a point. Your retorts are so convoluted that it makes more sense arguing with a brick wall. You say you had an intelligent response, but all I read was you stumbling and stuttering to try to make a point.

EDIT: Oh crap I forgot this--

In a nutshell there's only 1 person who will ever know.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Aug 22 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In a nutshell there's only 1 person who will ever know.....
Me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 23 2008, 03:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Babel, u suffer from poor logic and a grip on reality, but most you lack the ability to debate and carry a point. Your retorts are so convoluted that it makes more sense arguing with a brick wall. You say you had an intelligent response, but all I read was you stumbling and stuttering to try to make a point.

EDIT: Oh crap I forgot this--

I may stumble and stutter as English is not my native language but my points are not anny less valid.
I'm a bit surpriced when you give up arguing but I guess that what fire you up are only well palced comments regarding Hayden. You used to try to display a voice of reason but that's something you obviously have abandoned. Up to now it has been kind of fun arguing with you, even if it's been more and more difficult, and I understand that this is not possible anymore and that is a bit sad. I mean, even though your arguments didn't hold much weight you sure were eager enough. Now as you've fallen down to BM's level there is little left to discuss so I'll stop asking for sensible replys.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 23 2008, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I may stumble and stutter as English is not my native language but my points are not anny less valid.
I'm a bit surpriced when you give up arguing but I guess that what fire you up are only well palced comments regarding Hayden. You used to try to display a voice of reason but that's something you obviously have abandoned. Up to now it has been kind of fun arguing with you, even if it's been more and more difficult, and I understand that this is not possible anymore and that is a bit sad. I mean, even though your arguments didn't hold much weight you sure were eager enough. Now as you've fallen down to BM's level there is little left to discuss so I'll stop asking for sensible replys.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 22 2008, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll stop asking for sensible replys.
Cry me a river.

What's the point babe if I'm the only sensible one? I did try as you said, but I notice you are a stump. And like Tom, I have stopped wasting my time. I usually will give you a fairly well thought out response with backed up fact and sound logic, but your replies echo nothing of the sort. So then, why should I make the effort? You got a reply, I'm just no longer debating with a plethera of retorts. I'm off to fry bigger fish.

Geez what is there to argue about? You say Stoner doesn't like a fight, well he has several times. (Fact). You said Stoner had NO pressure winning the title. How can I argue with that? So lets just say I disagree with you and leave it at that.

(Keep in mind, as I had tried to make an effort since it seemed you had turned the corner with some nice replies. But here again, on this thread, you are up to your old tricks of sounding sensible while burying your snipes at Stoner as a form of making Rossi grand). But you can't fool me like you do others. As much as I would like to carry a nice conversation with you, since deep, very deep down I'm sure you are a nice person, its too much of an effort to stomach your replies absent of logic. Oh, don't blame the English thing, yours is good enough.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 23 2008, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But you can't fool me like you do others.

Your right Jumkie, it's just you who see right through me. Everyone else are fooled by my so called support for stoner, witch in reality is nothing but contempt.

What a bunch of morons the rest must be. Good that YOU are here to expose me for what I am. What should the morons have done without.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>But even if Rossi “cruises” to the title, I will still have respect for him since a championship is not just for him, but for all the no recognized workers in his team.
This is the straight talking Junkie at his best. The knight on his mount, exposing those speeaking with two tounges.
MUHAHAHAHA.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 22 2008, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>wrong, rossi's weakness is good starts, ans which spanish race are you referring to ?

this thread is about whether stoner choked or not so why turn it into a rossi vs stoner thread ?


Roger-M
I wasnt trying to turn this into a Rossi v Stoner thread, i think thats the last thing this place needs.
What i was commenting on was SuperShinya56 comments on how Stoner cant handle pressure, i think both Stoner and Rossi have made mistakes under pressure and i think Shinya is wrong to say that Vale hasnt. And your right Vales biggest problem is his starts.

Ive been watching the races since i was 12 when Gardner and Doohan era and the other greats as well and i think we are very lucky as fans to see this kinda racing, 1 day it will be gone and we will be saying .... remember when Rossi and Stoner were going at it??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stoner27 @ Aug 24 2008, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Roger-M
I wasnt trying to turn this into a Rossi v Stoner thread, i think thats the last thing this place needs.
What i was commenting on was SuperShinya56 comments on how Stoner cant handle pressure, i think both Stoner and Rossi have made mistakes under pressure and i think Shinya is wrong to say that Vale hasnt. And your right Vales biggest problem is his starts.

Ive been watching the races since i was 12 when Gardner and Doohan era and the other greats as well and i think we are very lucky as fans to see this kinda racing, 1 day it will be gone and we will be saying .... remember when Rossi and Stoner were going at it??
fair enough mate, some comments do get a little out of context here sometimes when there's a lot of peeps involved

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Val_46 @ Aug 19 2008, 09:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Cos i do

cough cough

This time it was deffinatly down to psychological pressure!

Rossi kept getting fastest lap after fastest lap, then for one lap he would increase the gap between him and Stoner, then he'd keep getting fastest laps.
Stoner just couldn't handle the psychological battle!