2024 Round 21 Valencian GP of Catalunya

Keshav said:

F’ing ridiculous! It won’t even let me spell the word p*rn or s*x. The nanny state comes to the forum.

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Couldn't give a flying fk if profanities are filtered. If the cvnts are stopped from putting their spam threads in also it is well worth it.

warthog1 said:

Yep I don't see Marc running away with this at this stage but will be happy if I'm wrong. Pecco has been in the team for a long time and will have the working relationships sorted and be close to many of them. Backed up by him crashing whilst drunk and having it shelved or pushed into the background at worst, by the entire organisation. They don't do that for an Italian they don't like on an Italian team. He will have had significant input into the bike and understands it well I expect. He has been the fastest on it for the past 3 seasons despite missing out this year by a small margin. One less crash and he had it.
It is going to be interesting to watch. It will be very impresssive if Marc does get up on this machine that has effectively neutralised his biggest advantage he had on corner entry.

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Yes, as has been said , he thrives under pressure, and has dominated the end of the last 3 seasons, although he left it too late this season against a worthy adversary on the same bike as him who rode intelligently. Both he and Martin have crashed out leading on their own on a number of occasions in the last 2 seasons and that may be at least partly down to how the bike operates, or the bike in combination with the Michelin tyres at least.

As is my wont I place some blame on Rossi, the two dnfs due to crashes with the Marquez brothers were crucial at least arithmetically, and he needs to treat them as riders he is racing and take his own best advantage if contesting either of them rather than as the abominable Marquez brothers who require different handling/being put in their place as seemed to be Valentino's advice. MM in fact spent the whole season being very careful not to crash into him. He does seem to have moved away from a hardline Valeban stance of his own volition anyway.

I want MM to win the 2025 title obviously, but if he doesn't may the best rider win, and I have no problem if that rider is Pecco, although Martin would probably be my next preference as a fan. I did say before the last race that it would be to MM's advantage for 2025 if Pecco didn't win the title, and that was because I also thought the advantages would be with Pecco in 2025 for the reasons you say, which would have been more pronounced imo had he been the homegrown Ducati guy who had won 3 titles on the bounce rather than the guy who was just beaten by a guy riding for a satellite team. I doubt Gigi cared as much as some in the Ducati Corse management did about the latter however, his bike still won both titles and could hardly have been more dominant. If he was able to give Martin the same bike I anticipate MM and Pecco will have also equal bikes next season, if anything it might go the other way given that in the pits next to MM he looks like a Taylor Swift fan who got to hang out with her backstage at a concert. I am told Domenicali looks like he wants to ask for an autograph in MM's company as well.

michaelm said:

Yes, as has been said , he thrives under pressure, and has dominated the end of the last 3 seasons, although he left it too late this season against a worthy adversary on the same bike as him who rode intelligently. Both he and Martin have crashed out leading on their own on a number of occasions in the last 2 seasons and that may be at least partly down to how the bike operates, or the bike in combination with the Michelin tyres at least.

As is my wont I place some blame on Rossi, the two dnfs due to crashes with the Marquez brothers were crucial at least arithmetically, and he needs to treat them as riders he is racing and take his own best advantage if contesting either of them rather than as the abominable Marquez brothers who require different handling/being put in their place as seemed to be Valentino's advice. MM in fact spent the whole season being very careful not to crash into him. He does seem to have moved away from a hardline Valeban stance of his own volition anyway.

I want MM to win the 2025 title obviously, but if he doesn't may the best rider win, and I have no problem if that rider is Pecco, although Martin would probably be my next preference as a fan. I did say before the last race that it would be to MM's advantage for 2025 if Pecco didn't win the title, and that was because I also thought the advantages would be with Pecco in 2025 for the reasons you say, which would have been more pronounced imo had he been the homegrown Ducati guy who had won 3 titles on the bounce rather than the guy who was just beaten by a guy riding for a satellite team. I doubt Gigi cared as much as some in the Ducati Corse management did about the latter however, his bike still won both titles and could hardly have been more dominant. If he was able to give Martin the same bike I anticipate MM and Pecco will have also equal bikes next season, if anything it might go the other way given that in the pits next to MM he looks like a Taylor Swift fan who got to hang out with her backstage at a concert. I am told Domenicali looks like he wants to ask for an autograph in MM's company as well.

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Yeah I expect them to have equal bikes but the bike they will have, has had significant input from Pecco, so you'd expect it to cater to his style.
With respect to the team being in awe of Marc, perhaps, makes sense to a degree, given the work it took to overcome him. Yes if Pecco won 3 on the trot, as an Italian on an Italian team, that would add to his sway.
I don't see that any respect Marquez has places him ahead of Pecco and his established understanding of, and relationship with, the team and bike though.
He will be a big challenge for Marc to overcome.

Marc has proven over the course of the season, that he is adaptable. Adaptable to the point that he could challenge other riders with much more Ducati experience, on a lesser, dated model. As has been said over and over again here on this forum, the Ducati really flatters a good rider. Assuming Marc stays healthy, I think his superior ability will largely negate any experience/advantage with the Ducati that Pecco may enjoy.

Keshav said:

Marc has proven over the course of the season, that he is adaptable. Adaptable to the point that he could challenge other riders with much more Ducati experience, on a lesser, dated model. As has been said over and over again here on this forum, the Ducati really flatters a good rider. Assuming Marc stays healthy, I think his superior ability will largely negate any experience/advantage with the Ducati that Pecco may enjoy.

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I've read..or maybe it was Matt Birt talking...about Marc having a good relationship with Frankie Carchedi so I'm wondering how he'll get on with his new crew chief.

Keshav said:

Marc has proven over the course of the season, that he is adaptable. Adaptable to the point that he could challenge other riders with much more Ducati experience, on a lesser, dated model. As has been said over and over again here on this forum, the Ducati really flatters a good rider. Assuming Marc stays healthy, I think his superior ability will largely negate any experience/advantage with the Ducati that Pecco may enjoy.

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I hope that is the case but as I said it is my opinion some of that advantage has been negated by aero and ride height. We will see next year. Tbh I expected more from him this year even though he was ahead of the other GP23 riders with more experience on the Ducati. The gap to Pecco and Martin was still insurmountable at plenty of circuits but yes the GP24 appears to have been a big step.
He is still the best I've watched but the riding style has changed with the current bikes.

warthog1 said:

I hope that is the case but as I said it is my opinion some of that advantage has been negated by aero and ride height. We will see next year. Tbh I expected more from him this year even though he was ahead of the other GP23 riders with more experience on the Ducati. The gap to Pecco and Martin was still insurmountable at plenty of circuits but yes the GP24 appears to have been a big step.
He is still the best I've watched but the riding style has changed with the current bikes.

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I preferred Stoner in his two dominant title winning years but MM sustained a similar peak much longer, and may even still be at or close to that peak, and dealt with (in fact thrived upon) what Stoner couldn’t. I liked what Shuhei Nakamoto said when MM had “only” won his first 2 premier class titles, Marc has faster reflexes but Casey is a genius on a bike . He didn’t repeat that statement to my knowledge while MM was racking up 4 more titles, and rightly so even imo.

PRS717 said:

I've read..or maybe it was Matt Birt talking...about Marc having a good relationship with Frankie Carchedi so I'm wondering how he'll get on with his new crew chief.

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I know zero about the new crew chief as a personality. That said, loyalties to the Italian side of the garage aside, it seems likely that he will want Gigi wants - and that's results. It's not like he just heard Marquez was coming to the team yesterday. He's had plenty of time to adjust to the idea of multiple times world champion coming into the garage. Marquez is a pretty charismatic guy and a total pro - which his new crew chief is bound to appreciate. Moreover . . . he'll no doubt appreciate a rider who doesn't sulk and make constant excuses about how some aspect of the bike failed him. Marquez will be a friggin' ray of sunshine in the Ducati garage.

warthog1 said:

I hope that is the case but as I said it is my opinion some of that advantage has been negated by aero and ride height. We will see next year. Tbh I expected more from him this year even though he was ahead of the other GP23 riders with more experience on the Ducati. The gap to Pecco and Martin was still insurmountable at plenty of circuits but yes the GP24 appears to have been a big step.
He is still the best I've watched but the riding style has changed with the current bikes.

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True enough, but the way I think on it, 2024 was Marquez's learning year. Again (not to beat a dead horse) his capacity to ride around the idiosyncrasies of the crappy Honda is not something he left behind at HRC. He's had a year to work out a different style of riding. He'll be fine in 2025. Barring injuries or DNFs not of his making, next year promises to be another close competition between him and Pecco.

Gotta put my 2cents in on this dust flurry that recently settled.

Keshav said:

Y'know, what I find objectionable is the way forum members seem to feel that Bagnaia owes them a personal/public apology, as if they'd been in the car with him at the time. The event didn't occur on the race track, so I can't help but wonder why race fans feel he owes them an amends. Nobody here knows what steps he has taken privately to make things right. This is a weird dynamic I see with fans of sports figures and athletes where fans seem to somehow believe they are entitled to an apology for - whatever - from public figures, for things that have occurred in private moments, as if fans owned said celebrity or sports figure. When I pay down my yearly fee to Dorna, I'm paying to watch racing. Nothing in the contract implies the riders have any obligation to live by my standards of conduct. Lecturing someone about ethics and moral standards is something one is obligated to do with one's children.

People "assume" Pecco is unrepentant, but nobody on this forum has ever personally spoken with him and because he hasn't PUBLICLY Tweeted about it or held a press conference to satisfy the public's voracious need to see him sufficiently abase himself they feel free to make assumptions about him. Its the inverse of hero worship; the flip side of the self-appointed guardians of morality's dynamic of living vicariously through the lives of celebrities.

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Amen to this. I've really, really enjoyed your posts on this. Very even-handed.

Speeding anyone? Can we even begin to tally the amount of road deaths where speeding was an important contributor. But then, so many of us engage in it (I was really very stupid as a youngster - now 56yrs and can look back at it), with our main defence being that so many others do it and most importantly .... I never crashed, and if I did, no one got hurt.

We open a serious can of worms taking anyone to task for what may have happened rather than what actually happened. Engaging in risky behaviour to the peril of others would and should be frowned upon and even sanctioned. There seem to be socially accepted thresholds for sanctioning behaviours that detrimentally affect the lives of others and even cause deaths. Even then a death or injury without intent, cannot be sanctioned without it occurring..... (there's attempted injury/killing with intent which carries its own sanction).

I'd bet that Pecco learnt from what happened. I agree that he doesn't owe his fans an apology or public statement for what occurred in a private setting, i.e., not in his official capacity as a MotoGP rider. The FIA and FIM are all too aware of the cancel culture and woke mindset that can run awry if allowed. Same for Jack Miller who wished to nip that in the bud. Pecco said what he had to say.... let's not 'cancel' him for it... let's move on.

Keshav said:

And you’re entitled to your opinion. It is however misplaced, in that you make that common mistake of judging users of drugs and alcohol as being immoral. People don’t misuse substances because they’re of “poor character”. Alcoholism and drug addiction or substance abuse of any kind - is a disease, same as depression, schizophrenia etc. The idea of substance abuse as a result of low character is a concept that is as wrong and out-of-date as mistaking schizophrenia for being possessed. It’s been well established for decades in the modern medical community that substance abuse is a medical/pyschiatric disease. To write someone off as “a junkie plain and simple” - is just wrong. This is not the 1950s. We know better now.

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Indeed!!

I think we too often take the moral high ground in claiming degrees of error on this issue. We may be addicted to a LOT of different material things with the actual addiction being to pleasure and escape... whatever may provide this. If we each take a good look in the mirror, we will likely admit addiction to something. One may think his addiction to spending is better than another's addiction to alcohol, for instance. Another may think his addiction to forums is better than another's addiction to ..... etc. The only difference with substance addiction is the severe physiologic impact which makes for a potent combination with the psychological impact common to all addictions. Since we may be able to resist substance addiction, does not mean we should judge those who have failed to because they are prone to it, while we are deep in the mire of an addiction all our own with all the negative consequences that go with any addiction, but which may not be socially stigmatised.

......

As to Pecco. I found his behaviour immediately after his championship defeat to be perfectly acceptable and even commendable, IMO. Don't quite get some of the views regarding this but to each his own.......

I've struggled to 'warm' up to Pecco with his quiet personality. He sort of reminds me of the movie 'Anger Management'. He is quiet and tends to come out of his shell during very emotional moments. So his angry moments can be quite unexpected with little to counterbalance this. I personally get it, but am indifferent. It's great to read sentiments that he is his own man and not under the influence of Rossi. I've always felt this way about him.

OTOH

Keshav said:

I know zero about the new crew chief as a personality. That said, loyalties to the Italian side of the garage aside, it seems likely that he will want Gigi wants - and that's results. It's not like he just heard Marquez was coming to the team yesterday. He's had plenty of time to adjust to the idea of multiple times world champion coming into the garage. Marquez is a pretty charismatic guy and a total pro - which his new crew chief is bound to appreciate. Moreover . . . he'll no doubt appreciate a rider who doesn't sulk and make constant excuses about how some aspect of the bike failed him. Marquez will be a friggin' ray of sunshine in the Ducati garage.

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I think he'll be alright

#22 said:

I think he'll be alright
View attachment 15235

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Yes a quite large number of people in the room in Ducati gear, with rather lan absence of en masse shunning of MM.

I guess most who are heavily involved in the sport are also fans at heart. It would also seem likely that what Petrucci said about Gigi, that he would like to see what a rider like Marc can do on his bike, applies more generally at Ducati

michaelm said:

Yes a quite large number of people in the room in Ducati gear, with rather lan absence of en masse shunning of MM.

I guess most who are heavily involved in the sport are also fans at heart. It would also seem likely that what Petrucci said about Gigi, that he would like to see what a rider like Marc can do on his bike, applies more generally at Ducati

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an absence of