Casey Stoner Rumors, Still sick

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exactly - an opinion, should I not have them?

And correct me, but is it not your opinion that they have already lost most of that anyway?

Or are you asking me my opinion again?

So where is your evidence that they have already lost most of that anyway?

See, it applies both ways.

You can call for evidence to back up the opinions of myself and others, and I can call for you to produce evidence but I tend to think that neither can do so.
I have referenced this above as well, but in the developed world we try to assume one is 'Innocent until proven guilty' so in this case the ones throwing the allegations out there need to provide the proof.

And I know it applies to CS and his detractors as well so don't bother with that retort. So then the CS detractors can use your 'opinion' theory as well, so you can call for evidence to back up the CS sickness conspiracy of myself and others, and I can call for you to produce evidence otherwise, but I 'know' that neither can do so especially if the best Docs in the world can't
I know that CS also requires the 'Innocent until proven guilty' defense so no need to retort that either,
So you can see how it applies both ways too....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But you have made your point/argument in numerous discussions now with myself, Jumkie, Austin and MichaelM and now back with me, to name a few, each time the same arguments apply which from you is basically that VR did not have superior equipment and deserves credit for his achievements - fullstop. When people question aspects (as is their right) you take umbrage and start again with your evidence requirements (and that is fair enough) but you also do not produce evidence that he has not had superior equipment - just your opinion and supposition.

See, it is a vicious circle you want evidence of others who want evidence of you but no conclusive evidence exists thus people surmise and form opinions based upon their reading/interpretation of the known facts (ie. numbers). Personally (and opinion again here) I strongly suspect that many within the game do not know the truth themselves as they are pawns and basically get on with their bit of the equation, as should we.

Gaz

Note: Crap, found out there is a limit to the number of quoted blocks one can use - doh

'Innocent until proven guilty......innocent until proven guilty'

Your right we should get on with it, and if you didn't attempt to put apart my 'Obvious' Sarcasm we wouldn't be here but you did and here we are. What goes around comes around......

I'm not the one accusing VR of these things, I'm defending him and his achievements in the sport. So sorry for the repetition, but those silly enough to throw the rocks at VR need to be told time and time again, and eventually they might learn, no guarantees though.....

Man, we gotta be getting RSI here surely.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mate I'm just warming up here!! They are just opinions, and many have suggested that VR has always had superior equipment, you have back me up in defending this. But as I keep saying, factual evidence is required to back it up and make it more than just an opinion-more so in the case of VR because of his outstanding record. This is why I asked you for the evidence to support your argument.

Mate, I have no evidence either way - just opinions and suspicions so will leave ot for you to gather the evidence that he has not had superior equipment throughout his career.

But will say, at time he has likely had access to parts that his team-mates have not had the same level of access to - but that goes with his position (same applies for many others acrosst he years as well - MD an example). It is not something I see as a problem at it's most basic, but do see it as a problem should that equipment not be made available at some point in time.

For my outlook there, I refer you to a post I made sometime ago which basically said that if VR rejects a part/component is it fair that JL does not also get to test the part/component as it may work for him but not VR (or thereabouts).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its just my opinion, but I'm sure many of VR's competitors running Michies would not have put up with he alone getting specials.....

So no evidence then -


Oh, and abso-farken-lutely, there is no way that a rider of equal standing (within a team powerbase that is - or is your prefer team/manufacturer #1) would have accepted anyone else getting equipment not available from a supposed neutral manufacturer as a tyre company should have been. Mind you, is that so different from a team-mate complaining of similar occuring from their manufacturer (surely you could see that coming - )


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As there is no evidence to suggest that he did have something, the cycle is vicious isn't it, Most riders suffer a crash and have an x-ray and plaster to help their case, Casey has been to the world's best physicians only to come up with zero......so just as you make your suppositions, I am entitled to mine, why not- we are all working on 'Guilty until proven innocent' here .

But was there also not criticism of CS late in 2008 when he produced an x-ray of the wrist injury that had 're-emerged'?

But, and hell I recognise it, when there is no clear cut physical issue (ie. a break) then an injury is questioned by many and when nothing clear cut is found - then it is open to supposition (just as is mental illness, stomach upset etc).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So until it is proven that he did, the popular argument (or in legal terms) should be 'Innocent until proven guilty' right. When you start to throw rocks...............

May I refer you to your previous we are all working on 'Guilty until proven innocent' comment. Why does it not apply here or why does this not apply there?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Looking at the season as a whole, no it is not true, we have had 2.5 close races, Catalunya and Germany, Brno sort of until the spill. Not really a good ratio, 3 in 14.

But the season has been dominated by Yamaha in those finishes nonetheless.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe at the moment, and you dodged this one pretty well, certainly not across his career as was my point.

Well if you mean his career then say it -

Across his career, certainly he seems to enjoy the competition of ontrack racing and the sheer closeness of it far more so than many if not all others (oh crap, an opinion again - sorry )

But the one thing he has always been able to do is clear off as needed but this year he cannot and no doubt would love to be able to do so - my point.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I thought that you being the level-headed one you would happily give us a Similar defensive sarcastic post for VR....
And you wouldn't oblige me, as you stated, you felt as though VR hasn't coped the flack requiring it!! If you haven't seen the flack put on VR here then I suggest it is you who needs to really go back and check out previous posts.

Oh, I see the 'flack' as you put it and again will say that there is very little to work with in refernce to being satirical.

See, with the CS stuff people were making accusations that were clearcut and easy to use again in a sarcastic manner, but so far with VR (aside from the bad taste gay stuff) there is very little outlandish claims (well from my view). People are not saying that an alien conspiracy has ensured that VR always gets the best equipment, nor that he feed the others on meat pies to slow them down, nor that the Mafia are involved with laser sights into others eyes - what they are saying is in some way a believable opinion (your view depending).

We will continue to disagree on this step, of that I am sure but if/when the outlandish and unsupportable occurs then hell yeah, I will be satirical.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes indeed, relevant machines, more of them, Two races plus SS.....its not that I want Motogp to diminish, I just hate to see being run into the ground due to technical regulations.

The number of machines is the biggest downer I experience with MGP at the moment as for my way of thinking the more the merrier and a better spectacle is made whether or not they are competitive. God, I hark to return to the days of the 500cc privateer who could buy one of the machines and race, only to be lapped on the sighting lap - for me, we need more bikes on teh grid before we worry about anything else.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BTW-I still love you

Why thank you, I will remember that next Valentine's Day




EDIT: Looks like you were typing part 2 as I did this so you will see my 'innocent until proven guilty' has to apply both ways line that was typed at the same time as your last post.





Gaz

V, I am kinda enjoying this at the moment so please, take it that this is just a bit of fun.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 15 2009, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on Gaz… 77 to 68 MotoGP/500, you knew I meant Top Class!

I gathered that but hey, you didn't specify and of late we seem to need to be absolutely positively no doubt allowed specific.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 15 2009, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on Gaz, you knew what I meant there too… Even Lorenzo has a few ‘wins’ (6 MotoGP) and is a great PR… But still, with few wins this PR stuff being discussed would not last too many years, less so over a decade. So I guess yes, we agree completely as you say.

Absolutely knew your point, no question there but you may have missed mine a bit which is a genuine question as to why the riders I mentioned have the profiles they do by comparison as it does genuinely interest me at times.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 15 2009, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don’t mind riders having access to the best machinery/equipment, but some ‘Anti-Yellow’ claim ‘Always’ has Rossi had it. We know it’s not true, if you tell me Rossi has access actually, or several Seasons, I have no argument. But ‘Always’ is pushing too much.


Pssst, don't let some of the yello see that statement as it looks like you admit that he had access to superior equipment for some seasons and we know that is not true.

But seriously, no way has he had superior equipment each and every year - but that does not also mean that he has not had exceedingly good equipment that was or may have been better than many others (and may have been down on some as well).

I don't know, but I get the feeling that most who say that he has always had superior equipment, possibly really mean that he has never been on poor bottom level equipment - but hey, that is likely wrong with some as well as there are bias all around us.







Ben, what is the record for longest thread?





Gaz

Talpa, how can you still seriously suggest Stoner had nothing wrong with him.
Maybe there is no definite diagnosis as to what it was, but that doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with him. Clearly he was sick.
Look at the vision of him getting off the bike after races.

Gaz (and Talpa)............you have waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much spare time!

But I admire the dedication...............

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Oct 15 2009, 02:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz (and Talpa)............you have waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much spare time!

But I admire the dedication...............


Tell me about it - sick and tired of looking for a bloody job and with teh wind around for the last week can't even get the bike out.

Pissing me orf.









Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tell me about it - sick and tired of looking for a bloody job and with teh wind around for the last week can't even get the bike out.

Pissing me orf.









Gaz
Fark have to work now but will be back to reply soon!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 15 2009, 03:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fark have to work now but will be back to reply soon!

Wsa wondering where you got the time.

Reply to this when you have time as well




Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 02:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But I do firmly believe (again an opinion) that DORNA know their meal tickets and whilst VR is/was that main ticket they will ensure (or at least intend to ensure) that decisions will not adversely effect him, much the same as employes often look after their 'star' employees. Now, you may read that as you wish but for mine DORNA would not now or ever make a decision that would conciously force their meal ticket to evaluate their place in the sport - that to me is influence.

I think Duhrna has done a lot to leverage any advantages Rossi had, even the change to 800cc formula. In fact, I think Duhrna has done everything possible to ensure that decisions would benefit Spanish riders above all. This of course does affect adversely in Rossi’s influence, doesn’t it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 02:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As an example, in 2007 the Michelin (it is safe to say) were the inferior type brand most of the time and Rossi was amonsgt the vocal Michelin shod riders (Pedrosa, Edwards others) who criticised the manufacturer and basically said that without Bridgestones they could not compete. Rossi stated outright that he wanted Bridgestone for 2008 to which Bridgestone said (similar to) we cannot manufacture for another team (this was actually quoted from memory by J4rn0 in an earlier post). DORNA posture and prance (as they do) and Bridgestone cave to the pressure and end up able to supply one additional rider - which of course coincedentally was Rossi (not Pedrosa who was as vocal).

But Honda’s Influence and Relation to Michelin was very vocal too, which did not help Pedrosa in the change until it was obvious for the entire Sport (Mid Season).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 03:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dorna's posturing is occurring because the 800cc format sucks and they know it, it didn't take VR to tell them this...

Was it not Hayden very vocal about the crap 800cc are and also wanted 990cc back?


Now, why are we discussing Duhrna, Michelin and Hayden in this thread is beyond me!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Man, we gotta be getting RSI here surely.

IIIIIIIII""""""""MMMMMMMMM BBBBBBAAAAACCCCKKKKKK!!!!!
As I said still warming up......


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mate, I have no evidence either way - just opinions and suspicions so will leave ot for you to gather the evidence that he has not had superior equipment throughout his career.

But will say, at time he has likely had access to parts that his team-mates have not had the same level of access to - but that goes with his position (same applies for many others acrosst he years as well - MD an example). It is not something I see as a problem at it's most basic, but do see it as a problem should that equipment not be made available at some point in time.

For my outlook there, I refer you to a post I made sometime ago which basically said that if VR rejects a part/component is it fair that JL does not also get to test the part/component as it may work for him but not VR (or thereabouts).

So with no evidence either way the opinion is fairly demeaning to the achievements of VR, and I'm sorry but I can't take it any other way, hence it required a sarcastic post from myself, just as the demeaning nature of the CS comments you decided to send up.......now we've come full circle!!!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So no evidence then -

Oh, and abso-farken-lutely, there is no way that a rider of equal standing (within a team powerbase that is - or is your prefer team/manufacturer #1) would have accepted anyone else getting equipment not available from a supposed neutral manufacturer as a tyre company should have been. Mind you, is that so different from a team-mate complaining of similar occuring from their manufacturer (surely you could see that coming - )

Just another opinion, which thankfully you agreed with. On the last point, Marco might back you up on that from his Ducati days last year

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But was there also not criticism of CS late in 2008 when he produced an x-ray of the wrist injury that had 're-emerged'?

But, and hell I recognise it, when there is no clear cut physical issue (ie. a break) then an injury is questioned by many and when nothing clear cut is found - then it is open to supposition (just as is mental illness, stomach upset etc).

Didn't know about the CS criticism in late 08 about the wrist.

So then we agree again.....wow


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>May I refer you to your previous we are all working on 'Guilty until proven innocent' comment. Why does it not apply here or why does this not apply there?

Those who throw out the allegations about VR and his apparent advantages, implying they were the only reason he won anything, are basically using the 'Guilty until proven innocent mindset', So to suggest that this is, has been, used to be, might have been, as you have, is saying that Rossi has won 'SOME' of his titles due to unfair advantages.......and this I can simply never agree with so you are wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But the season has been dominated by Yamaha in those finishes nonetheless.

So.......this didn't make them any more exciting


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well if you mean his career then say it -

Across his career, certainly he seems to enjoy the competition of ontrack racing and the sheer closeness of it far more so than many if not all others (oh crap, an opinion again - sorry )

But the one thing he has always been able to do is clear off as needed but this year he cannot and no doubt would love to be able to do so - my point.

We are talking career and have been all along, you just throw in recent references to try and strengthen your point (s), how do you come to the conclusion that he has always been able to clear off?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh, I see the 'flack' as you put it and again will say that there is very little to work with in refernce to being satirical.

See, with the CS stuff people were making accusations that were clearcut and easy to use again in a sarcastic manner, but so far with VR (aside from the bad taste gay stuff) there is very little outlandish claims (well from my view). People are not saying that an alien conspiracy has ensured that VR always gets the best equipment, nor that he feed the others on meat pies to slow them down, nor that the Mafia are involved with laser sights into others eyes - what they are saying is in some way a believable opinion (your view depending).

We will continue to disagree on this step, of that I am sure but if/when the outlandish and unsupportable occurs then hell yeah, I will be satirical.

See for some here, it is outlandish and unsupportable (as we have come to agree upon) that VR's titles were only gained through these apparent unfair advantages, also for some here it is outlandish and unsupportable that VR is also involved in back room deals to secure these advantages. Not for you obviously, but some of us don't believe in Santa or the Bunyip or Bigfoot or that they didn't land on the moon either

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The number of machines is the biggest downer I experience with MGP at the moment as for my way of thinking the more the merrier and a better spectacle is made whether or not they are competitive. God, I hark to return to the days of the 500cc privateer who could buy one of the machines and race, only to be lapped on the sighting lap - for me, we need more bikes on teh grid before we worry about anything else.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 14 2009, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Talpa, how can you still seriously suggest Stoner had nothing wrong with him.
Maybe there is no definite diagnosis as to what it was, but that doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with him. Clearly he was sick.
Look at the vision of him getting off the bike after races.

It's like "holocaust denier's" syndrome, flat-earthers and that peculiar breed
that still insist that astronauts never really went to the moon. Some people
are so bloody-minded about holding onto an absurd belief that they will
never - in the face of all evidence to the contrary - admit when they are wrong.
Some folks just spend their lives with their fingers in their ears and blinders on
childishly going nah nah nah - I can't hear you, offerering that as their rebut in a
debate they know they can't win. This syndrome is particularly prevalent in Rossifans.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 07:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I only gave you back what you gave us originally with your satirical CS defense of sand in ...... etc. D
The sand in the ...... thing is actually curve's, and basically presents your entire however many tens of thousands of words by now argument regarding stoner's putative ailment rather more concisely. I disagree with both of you vehemently, but if you aspire to being a satirist perhaps you should study curve and do it in haiku form.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 15 2009, 05:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This syndrome is particularly prevalent in Rossifans.

Both ways mate… or because there are a lot of different Riders’ fans… A lot of ways mate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 15 2009, 05:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The sand in the ...... thing is actually curve's

A whole encyclopedia had to be Curve’s fault… I have to hand it to you Curve my brother!

And thank Talpa and Gaz for their entertaining dedication and great points!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 15 2009, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's like "holocaust denier's" syndrome, flat-earthers and that peculiar breed
that still insist that astronauts never really went to the moon. Some people
are so bloody-minded about holding onto an absurd belief that they will
never - in the face of all evidence to the contrary - admit when they are wrong.
Some folks just spend their lives with their fingers in their ears and blinders on
childishly going nah nah nah - I can't hear you, offerering that as their rebut in a
debate they know they can't win. This syndrome is particularly prevalent in Rossifans.

It is impossible to fake looking as ill as that, about as possible as faking riding a bike as fast as he demonstrably can.

Oh man… we really have nothing to do in between races… I am going to light it up a bit again because it seems the whole thousands of words a losing momentum… A least until tomorrow FP1!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 15 2009, 06:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>as faking being able to ride a bike as fast as he can.

But the Ducati rides itself!

Here we go…




No really, I was already closing this Chapter too, it was a bad joke!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 15 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But the Ducati rides itself!
Touche .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 15 2009, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree with both of you vehemently, but if you aspire to being a satirist perhaps you should study curve and do it in haiku form.
I love haiku's, I did a cs one about two months ago. Heres on for this thread:

Sour patch kid sick?
Gaz and Talpa debate it.
No one wins again.

This thread is beyond redundant, although like everyone else I have enjoyed The Great G&T Debate but I don't think it will ever end. Both sides are running with this sick thing with very little details known. The only word we keep hearing is fatigue. Which gives room for speculation that it is a. mental (all in his head)
or b. he is sick with an unknown virus creating chronic fatigue

I am beginning to wonder if we will ever know the truth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 15 2009, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is impossible to fake looking as ill as that, about as possible as faking riding a bike as fast as he demonstrably can.

You and I know that... but Rossifans have chalked it up to acting, or the famous
Rossi mind-fogging powers or a sudden loss of desire to compete, as if for no good reason Stoner decided in the middle of the season when the championship was wide open, to abandon
all the hard work he's put in - so he could go fishing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Oct 15 2009, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I love haiku's, I did a cs one about two months ago. Heres on for this thread:

Sour patch kid sick?
Gaz and Talpa debate it.
No one wins again.

This thread is beyond redundant, although like everyone else I have enjoyed The Great G&T Debate but I don't think it will ever end. Both sides are running with this sick thing with very little details known. The only word we keep hearing is fatigue. Which gives room for speculation that it is a. mental (all in his head)
or b. he is sick with an unknown virus creating chronic fatigue

I am beginning to wonder if we will ever know the truth.

Lame jokes stinking
Like excreted mooseburgers
From Sarah Palin's steaming anus

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 15 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lame jokes stinking
Like excreted mooseburgers
From Sarah Palin's steaming anus

Poor little keshav
Has stick shoved far up his ...
cannot take a joke