Casey Stoner Rumors, Still sick

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 12 2009, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Detracting from valentino and detracting from some of his fans are not necessarily the same thing.

Neither you nor I will ever convince them of this, simply they just can't see the difference. All part of the Rossi colored eye wear surgically implanted once you've been inducted into the Mindless cult kin.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 13 2009, 05:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you're reading waaaaay too much into their comments. 98% of it was positive on Stoner. 2% was simply them stating their perplexity about the whole situation. Yes, their comments have more weight then the simple spectator, but if you read them carefully, they are no more stating their speculation about this than anybody else. Lets put this in a bit of perspective, the fact of the matter is, on Casey's own admission, that the cause of his illness has been an enigma. So them charaterizing it as a "mystery" is not far off the mark. Their comments are way far from the self professed physiologists and physicians here telling us that Casey's illness is a farce or simply caving to pressure. You're talking like Gardner/Schwantz called Casey a ..... or a liar. Sure, there commentary on the subject is not the tone of an advocate like say a Stoner family member would have, but its not as damning as you're making it sound. They are not saying its fake. Again, they are not harking back in a self patronizing tone either, as at least Schwantz has said today is a different time and realizes that the pressures today are enormous. Honestly, the most provocative part of their comments is the heading some perfidious journalist with knack for lurid sensationalism attached to the story. I think the person that deserves most lambasting is the Marlbmoron that demanded Stoner apologize.
My criticism was meant to be more of gardner than schwantz, and my annoyance with him goes back to the doohan days; gaz says approximately what I think better than I did.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 13 2009, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Detracting from valentino and detracting from some of his fans are not necessarily the same thing.

Vice-Versa with Stoner mate, although Stoner gives his detractors way more to work with so it takes a little longer to get to his fans. Personally I try to avoid abusing people because of their allegiances, from what I've seen here though, CS fans are just as bad if not worse than Rossi's.

According to some here Valentino Rossi is;

-A closet homosexual who openly displays an acronym 'Long live the ......'

-The only rider to win solely because of his superior machinery

- The only rider to win because of his special rubber which is made under the supervision of MI6 and the CIA at Groom Lake.

- A back room deal maker/puppeteer who manipulates the sports governing body, the sponsors, the fans, the TV networks and the manufacturers in to getting exactly what he needs in order to gain unfair advantages over his competitors, and then when getting these unfair advantages he then orchestrates last lap, last corner over-taking maneuvers like Catalunya 09 just to keep himself amused.

- A spoilt brat who has never had to fight for anything throughout his 8 world titles, who whinges and ....... when others gain massively from his work and then turn around and beat him, somewhat like the noises previous multiple world title holders use to make (only without the flack)

- A showman who belongs in Hollywood not on the race track with the serious man-like racing types.

I'm sure there is much more but I won't go on, if I didn't see it for myself and believed the rubbish about VR here, I would have to conclude that he is the biggest fraud in the history of motorsport and should be investigated and prosecuted immediately!!!

Pinky-Judge/Executioner
BarryMachine-Prosecutor
Jumke- Key Witness
Michm- Baliff
Supershinya- Mallot pad
Gaz- Court reporter
Rog- Defense

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Vice-Versa with Stoner mate, although Stoner gives his detractors way more to work with so it takes a little longer to get to his fans. Personally I try to avoid abusing people because of their allegiances, from what I've seen here though, CS fans are just as bad if not worse than Rossi's.

According to some here Valentino Rossi is;

-A closet homosexual who openly displays an acronym 'Long live the ......'

Agree - distasteful.

And seriously, I have only seen this said once or twice and it has been shouted down quickly by people from all sides (and those that have said it are well known for the type of comments).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>-The only rider to win solely because of his superior machinery

So, you admit it then - bah.

He was not the first nor will he be the last to have the advantage of superior machinery/equipment, but ultimately it also need a rider to make use of that equipment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- The only rider to win because of his special rubber which is made under the supervision of MI6 and the CIA at Groom Lake.

Don't know if MI6 were involved in the production but this is acknowledged as having occurred for many years prior to 2007 with a variety of riders, so is accepted as fact that it did occur.

I do not think that people are saying that this is the only reason that VR has been as successful nor the sole reason why he has won many championships, but they are saying it could have been a factor and falls within the 'superior equipment' point of earlier.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- A back room deal maker/puppeteer who manipulates the sports governing body, the sponsors, the fans, the TV networks and the manufacturers in to getting exactly what he needs in order to gain unfair advantages over his competitors, and then when getting these unfair advantages he then orchestrates last lap, last corner over-taking maneuvers like Catalunya 09 just to keep himself amused.

An interesting point this one and one that really would need to be broken down as IMO he does manipulate many aspects of the sport (as all high profile athletes/persons do) because of his pure influence and worth (in dollar terms) for the organising body.

Suffice for me to say that he has a very healthy influence (actually 'had' may be a better use there as I am not so sure that he is as strong as before with Dorna) in many aspects of the sport given he being the 'meal ticket'. This could mean the he has influenced to his benefit at times or it could well mean that Dorna caved at times to Rossi's preferences (whether or not because he wanted it).

As for manipulation of fans media etc, I would say he manipulates like none before and he does it very well.

For fans firstly, let me say we are not talking the 'motorsport fan who supports Rossi', but the 'Rossi' fan who does not support the sport (much like the 'fans' bought to golf by Tiger Woods). He has a fanbase that covers a massive spectrum of people and sadly there is a pure ..... percentage amongst them which, because his base is larger is more widely seen or heard, basically weight of numbers. This is not his fault, but he can and does manipulate ast hey hang from his every word and if VR does not like an aspect these people will not judge for themselves but blindly follow because of their 'idols' wishes. Again, and before people get upset note that I refer to aspecific type of fan there and am fully aware that it is not all fans.

As for the media, bloody oathhe manipulates them, for he is the master at it, brilliant in fact and when in full flight he is able to charm the media into believing anything. He has the motorcycle media eating from his hand, listening for every word he speaks and he knows it, thus he feeds them much as a PR agent for a celebrity. In many ways, he should be admired for the fact that he has created such an effect that many journalists are purely putty in his hands - a master at work.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- A spoilt brat who has never had to fight for anything throughout his 8 world titles, who whinges and ....... when others gain massively from his work and then turn around and beat him, somewhat like the noises previous multiple world title holders use to make (only without the flack)

Well lets be fair he is complaining about it according to various reports so why is it wrong for people to question it or his motives.

And yes, it is nothing new as the likes of WG/MD etc said the same things and whilst they did receive some (very little flack) it is safe to generalise and say they copped nothing.

But times have changed (this has been said by all sides for a while) and the fact that VR is complaining does go against the persona that he has built for so long and is a side that many have not seen perviously. So is it unfair to comment on it - I say not as it is news.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- A showman who belongs in Hollywood not on the race track with the serious man-like racing types.

Haven't heard that one, must have had my blinkers on.

Pedrsonally, I am sick of the tired antics and notice that this year (the 100th excepting) he has been well reserved in his celebrations which I find interesting but have no real idea why they have backed off (aside from ideas).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm sure there is much more but I won't go on, if I didn't see it for myself and believed the rubbish about VR here, I would have to conclude that he is the biggest fraud in the history of motorsport and should be investigated and prosecuted immediately!!!

What of the rubbish written in this place about Stoner, Pedrosa etc - isn't that just as rubbish and distasteful or is that different?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pinky-Judge/Executioner
BarryMachine-Prosecutor
Jumke- Key Witness
Michm- Baliff
Supershinya- Mallot pad
Gaz- Court reporter
Rog- Defense


Mate, you are kidding about you trying to avoid abusing people aren't you?

I mean, you mention allegiances yet you only seem to launch tirades against those that you deem as not aligned to Rossi when they may only be doing as little as providing an alternate point of view as is their right.

Seriously Talpa, there are times when you make valid points (as with many posters in this place) but then you seem to like to launch tirades and 'bully' people with abuse if they oppose your points or offer their opinion as to why they feel you may be wrong as at times, which is unnecessary as it diminishes from your valid argument/points.

Mind you, I suppose that I should be so flattered that I get the reporter's job as that is a neutral position and having been labelled as 'anti Rossi' in the past I do thank you for the job offer as I do need one right now. So, please what does it pay and what are the hours as I am genuinely interested (fark it has to be better than daytime tv )






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agree - distasteful.

And seriously, I have only seen this said once or twice and it has been shouted down quickly by people from all sides (and those that have said it are well known for the type of comments).




So, you admit it then - bah.

He was not the first nor will he be the last to have the advantage of superior machinery/equipment, but ultimately it also need a rider to make use of that equipment.



Don't know if MI6 were involved in the production but this is acknowledged as having occurred for many years prior to 2007 with a variety of riders, so is accepted as fact that it did occur.

I do not think that people are saying that this is the only reason that VR has been as successful nor the sole reason why he has won many championships, but they are saying it could have been a factor and falls within the 'superior equipment' point of earlier.




An interesting point this one and one that really would need to be broken down as IMO he does manipulate many aspects of the sport (as all high profile athletes/persons do) because of his pure influence and worth (in dollar terms) for the organising body.

Suffice for me to say that he has a very healthy influence (actually 'had' may be a better use there as I am not so sure that he is as strong as before with Dorna) in many aspects of the sport given he being the 'meal ticket'. This could mean the he has influenced to his benefit at times or it could well mean that Dorna caved at times to Rossi's preferences (whether or not because he wanted it).

As for manipulation of fans media etc, I would say he manipulates like none before and he does it very well.

For fans firstly, let me say we are not talking the 'motorsport fan who supports Rossi', but the 'Rossi' fan who does not support the sport (much like the 'fans' bought to golf by Tiger Woods). He has a fanbase that covers a massive spectrum of people and sadly there is a pure ..... percentage amongst them which, because his base is larger is more widely seen or heard, basically weight of numbers. This is not his fault, but he can and does manipulate ast hey hang from his every word and if VR does not like an aspect these people will not judge for themselves but blindly follow because of their 'idols' wishes. Again, and before people get upset note that I refer to aspecific type of fan there and am fully aware that it is not all fans.

As for the media, bloody oathhe manipulates them, for he is the master at it, brilliant in fact and when in full flight he is able to charm the media into believing anything. He has the motorcycle media eating from his hand, listening for every word he speaks and he knows it, thus he feeds them much as a PR agent for a celebrity. In many ways, he should be admired for the fact that he has created such an effect that many journalists are purely putty in his hands - a master at work.




Well lets be fair he is complaining about it according to various reports so why is it wrong for people to question it or his motives.

And yes, it is nothing new as the likes of WG/MD etc said the same things and whilst they did receive some (very little flack) it is safe to generalise and say they copped nothing.

But times have changed (this has been said by all sides for a while) and the fact that VR is complaining does go against the persona that he has built for so long and is a side that many have not seen perviously. So is it unfair to comment on it - I say not as it is news.




Haven't heard that one, must have had my blinkers on.

Pedrsonally, I am sick of the tired antics and notice that this year (the 100th excepting) he has been well reserved in his celebrations which I find interesting but have no real idea why they have backed off (aside from ideas).




What of the rubbish written in this place about Stoner, Pedrosa etc - isn't that just as rubbish and distasteful or is that different?





Mate, you are kidding about you trying to avoid abusing people aren't you?

I mean, you mention allegiances yet you only seem to launch tirades against those that you deem as not aligned to Rossi when they may only be doing as little as providing an alternate point of view as is their right.

Seriously Talpa, there are times when you make valid points (as with many posters in this place) but then you seem to like to launch tirades and 'bully' people with abuse if they oppose your points or offer their opinion as to why they feel you may be wrong as at times, which is unnecessary as it diminishes from your valid argument/points.

Mind you, I suppose that I should be so flattered that I get the reporter's job as that is a neutral position and having been labelled as 'anti Rossi' in the past I do thank you for the job offer as I do need one right now. So, please what does it pay and what are the hours as I am genuinely interested (fark it has to be better than daytime tv )






Gaz

Mate, I knew you would take this one a little too seriously!! Just taking the piss, I try to only bully the clowns or keep the other bully's honest and I enjoy subtlety pointed out double standards! Though I do admit to the odd tirade, but this one was for ..... and giggles.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Besides, how much over training can one do by eating candy, whilst playing playstation, whilst porking his hot woman, whilst vomiting into his helmet, whilst falling from his tricycle as he cries about being beaten by a three year old at monopoly (edit: Oops, I also forgot to add that he is doing all this while getting sand in his ...... as he kicks the toys from the sandbox at his feet - sorry).


Gaz

Well the candy thing was actually proven, as was the love of Red Bull, they all play too much playstation, and he is married to her isn't he, shes already had her anti-aphrodisiac-The Wedding CAKE!!!!

Gaz for President!

Oh, and nice backpedaling Talpa.

Gaz - 1 .................... Talpa - 0

Interesting the two dumbest posts just added both came from members of the lynch mob suggested above.......

I would argue every point but I have already done this many times on the same subject and quite frankly its getting really tiring, so the addition of sarcasm for entertainment purposes seems to be the logical thing to do as all credible argument was lost long ago......but if you really want I can argue every one of gaz's points? Any takers ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting the two dumbest posts just added both came from members of the lynch mob suggested above.......

I would argue every point but I have already done this many times on the same subject and quite frankly its getting really tiring, so the addition of sarcasm for entertainment purposes seems to be the logical thing to do as all credible argument was lost long ago......but if you really want I can argue every one of gaz's points? Any takers ?

Why can't you just be humble in defeat? Even Jumkie here was after I beat him badly in a debate. Like I told Jumkie..... chalk it up as a loss and move on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He was not the first nor will he be the last to have the advantage of superior machinery/equipment, but ultimately it also need a rider to make use of that equipment.

Ok here we go anyway cause I'm bored, this is the first time I've heard you admit that anyone bar Rossi has had Superior equipment-are we getting somewhere??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't know if MI6 were involved in the production but this is acknowledged as having occurred for many years prior to 2007

with a variety of riders, so is accepted as fact that it did occur.

So did it occur for Rossi and a variety of other riders? To bring it up means that you need some serious evidence to back up who got them, what advantage, if any, did they gain and how did this affect each Championship race, this doesn't account for Rossi's Titles in 2008, 2001, 1999, 1997 either

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do not think that people are saying that this is the only reason that VR has been as successful nor the sole reason why he has won many championships, but they are saying it could have been a factor and falls within the 'superior equipment' point of earlier.

Me thinks you thinks very wrong here mate......I have seen many, many posts saying that this is the only reason VR has won anything

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>An interesting point this one and one that really would need to be broken down as IMO he does manipulate many aspects of the sport (as all high profile athletes/persons do) because of his pure influence and worth (in dollar terms) for the organising body.

Any proof please.......written or Video, credible as well please....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Suffice for me to say that he has a very healthy influence (actually 'had' may be a better use there as I am not so sure that he is as strong as before with Dorna) in many aspects of the sport given he being the 'meal ticket'. This could mean the he has influenced to his benefit at times or it could well mean that Dorna caved at times to Rossi's preferences (whether or not because he wanted it).
Proof again please........if he had so much influence why are we still watching 800's? Hasn't VR been vehemently opposed to the 800's since their conception? And if Drona caved into VR's preferences even if he didn't want it.....how can this be then called manipulation or deliberate manipulation to gain advantage?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As for manipulation of fans media etc, I would say he manipulates like none before and he does it very well.

For fans firstly, let me say we are not talking the 'motorsport fan who supports Rossi', but the 'Rossi' fan who does not support the sport (much like the 'fans' bought to golf by Tiger Woods). He has a fanbase that covers a massive spectrum of people and sadly there is a pure ..... percentage amongst them which, because his base is larger is more widely seen or heard, basically weight of numbers. This is not his fault, but he can and does manipulate ast hey hang from his every word and if VR does not like an aspect these people will not judge for themselves but blindly follow because of their 'idols' wishes. Again, and before people get upset note that I refer to aspecific type of fan there and am fully aware that it is not all fans.

Fair point he has attracted some wallys, but surely through his mass-appeal the sport has also gained some Fair-dinkum fans for life which can't be a bad thing.....I know a lot of Aussies who have only been watching since 2007 in hope that CS can beat him again, so on the Flip side it can be said that CS attracted a lot of patriarchal wallys himself, door swings both ways. Nickys title in 06-same can be said and so on and so on....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As for the media, bloody oathhe manipulates them, for he is the master at it, brilliant in fact and when in full flight he is able to charm the media into believing anything. He has the motorcycle media eating from his hand, listening for every word he speaks and he knows it, thus he feeds them much as a PR agent for a celebrity. In many ways, he should be admired for the fact that he has created such an effect that many journalists are purely putty in his hands - a master at work.
you feeling ok? Though the praise was for his Media string pulling and not riding ability....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well lets be fair he is complaining about it according to various reports so why is it wrong for people to question it or his motives.

And yes, it is nothing new as the likes of WG/MD etc said the same things and whilst they did receive some (very little flack) it is safe to generalise and say they copped nothing.

But times have changed (this has been said by all sides for a while) and the fact that VR is complaining does go against the persona that he has built for so long and is a side that many have not seen perviously. So is it unfair to comment on it - I say not as it is news.

Yes indeed, times have changed but if you are to ridicule the talent then his reasons and other relevant talent reasons in the past need to be addressed as a point of reference in defense

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What of the rubbish written in this place about Stoner, Pedrosa etc - isn't that just as rubbish and distasteful or is that different?

Not at all, but you gave satirical reference to Stoner's derogatory posts, and not VR's, Pedders, Gibbers etc.....and how is this different?.....so I ask why don't you give us your satirical spin on the others as I did with VR's, oh hang on you were busy arguing Rossi's Ridiculous detractors comments I highlighted, hmmmm maybe I should have made you assistant to the prosecution instead!!!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mate, you are kidding about you trying to avoid abusing people aren't you?

I mean, you mention allegiances yet you only seem to launch tirades against those that you deem as not aligned to Rossi when they may only be doing as little as providing an alternate point of view as is their right.

Seriously Talpa, there are times when you make valid points (as with many posters in this place) but then you seem to like to launch tirades and 'bully' people with abuse if they oppose your points or offer their opinion as to why they feel you may be wrong as at times, which is unnecessary as it diminishes from your valid argument/points.

Mind you, I suppose that I should be so flattered that I get the reporter's job as that is a neutral position and having been labelled as 'anti Rossi' in the past I do thank you for the job offer as I do need one right now. So, please what does it pay and what are the hours as I am genuinely interested (fark it has to be better than daytime tv )


Gaz

Answered this one.....and once again you can see my colours.....but others sadly try to hide theirs, not too well I might add...

I am a fan of the sport, fan of most of the riders (incl Rossi and Stoner - abt the only one I don't respect is Melandri, and even he is growing on me now), and a fan of Ducati.
I don't like the idiots that run the show, don't like the dodgy dealings of the manufacturers (mainly Honda), and don't like the mindless idiots that blindly hang .... on anything that could potentionally undermine the chosen god (Rossi).

Rossi is one of the smartest guys in MGP. This is a sport to him, but it is business. Much of what you see from Rossi, is driven by business positioning, with Dorma, sponsors, Yamaha, and the massive business of keeping his adoring fans happy, and he does it very well.

Here's a different approach for ya Talpa.......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Vice-Versa with Stoner mate, although Stoner gives his detractors way more to work with so it takes a little longer to get to his fans. Personally I try to avoid abusing people because of their allegiances, from what I've seen here though, CS fans are just as bad if not worse than Rossi's.
Mate, you are one of the kings at hanging .... on Stoner.
As a racer, Stoner is a match for Rossi.
As a superstar, Rossi is in a different league to everyone, and to Rossi (and the business that is VR), that is just as important to him. Problem is that his superstar status relys on him winning races

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>According to some here Valentino Rossi is;
-A closet homosexual who openly displays an acronym 'Long live the ......'
Anyone with half a brain knows that is ......... Rossi can, and probably does, score more hot women than everyone on this forum combined. When hot girls are so easily available, they probably become less important.
He is lucky enought to have his mates around him. Doesn't mean he is gay.
And, at the end of the day, what does it matter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>-The only rider to win solely because of his superior machinery
Rossi - because he is one of the best - has had the best bikes, and has been surrounded by the best people (JB). If he wasn't making the best of those bikes and of those people, and getting the results, they would have gone to someone else.
To be as successful as he has been, he must have the best equipment, but he has earned the right to have the best equipment, and he has brought the results.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- The only rider to win because of his special rubber which is made under the supervision of MI6 and the CIA at Groom Lake.
Every team does whetever they can to manipulate the rules to their advantage. It is part of every form of motorsport. If Rossi / Honda / Yam have been able to do this and get away with it, good luck to them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- A back room deal maker/puppeteer who manipulates the sports governing body, the sponsors, the fans, the TV networks and the manufacturers in to getting exactly what he needs in order to gain unfair advantages over his competitors, and then when getting these unfair advantages he then orchestrates last lap, last corner over-taking maneuvers like Catalunya 09 just to keep himself amused.
Rossi is a smart dude.
He knows that his success is largely dependent on the success of the sport. It is in Rossi's best interests to make a spectacular race. I have no doubt he tries to orchestrate events and outcomes.
He loves a fight, because it keeps him and MotoGP in the spotlight = more fans = more money.
DORMA also know this, and I am sure that between them, deals are done for the mutual benefit of the sport.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- A spoilt brat who has never had to fight for anything throughout his 8 world titles, who whinges and ....... when others gain massively from his work and then turn around and beat him, somewhat like the noises previous multiple world title holders use to make (only without the flack)
I think Rossi (like most high profile people) likes to get his own way.
There is a lot on the line. Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedders, and most of the past champions have been the same.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>- A showman who belongs in Hollywood not on the race track with the serious man-like racing types.
The show that is VR is what makes him a superstar, and is what keeps the fans, sponsors, and promoters happy = more money, and more power to remain at the top.
Lorenzo knows this and is trying to emulate Rossi.
Stoner and Pedders will never have the cult following (or the business potential) because no matter how good they are at riding the bikes, they will never be superstars like Rossi (and probably neither will Lorenzo outside Spain).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would have to conclude that he is the biggest fraud in the history of motorsport and should be investigated and prosecuted immediately!!!
Rossi is one of the smartest guys in motorsport. It just helps that he is one of the greatest ever riders.

There is way too much negative .... on this forum, and the same people trying to smackdown the same riders gets boring.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 14 2009, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am a fan of the sport, fan of most of the riders (incl Rossi and Stoner - abt the only one I don't respect is Melandri, and even he is growing on me now), and a fan of Ducati.
I don't like the idiots that run the show, don't like the dodgy dealings of the manufacturers (mainly Honda), and don't like the mindless idiots that blindly hang .... on anything that could potentionally undermine the chosen god (Rossi).

Rossi is one of the smartest guys in MGP. This is a sport to him, but it is business. Much of what you see from Rossi, is driven by business positioning, with Dorma, sponsors, Yamaha, and the massive business of keeping his adoring fans happy, and he does it very well.

Here's a different approach for ya Talpa.......


Mate, you are one of the kings at hanging .... on Stoner.
As a racer, Stoner is a match for Rossi.
As a superstar, Rossi is in a different league to everyone, and to Rossi (and the business that is VR), that is just as important to him. Problem is that his superstar status relys on him winning races


Anyone with half a brain knows that is ......... Rossi can, and probably does, score more hot women than everyone on this forum combined. When hot girls are so easily available, they probably become less important.
He is lucky enought to have his mates around him. Doesn't mean he is gay.
And, at the end of the day, what does it matter.


Rossi - because he is one of the best - has had the best bikes, and has been surrounded by the best people (JB). If he wasn't making the best of those bikes and of those people, and getting the results, they would have gone to someone else.
To be as successful as he has been, he must have the best equipment, but he has earned the right to have the best equipment, and he has brought the results.


Every team does whetever they can to manipulate the rules to their advantage. It is part of every form of motorsport. If Rossi / Honda / Yam have been able to do this and get away with it, good luck to them.


Rossi is a smart dude.
He knows that his success is largely dependent on the success of the sport. It is in Rossi's best interests to make a spectacular race. I have no doubt he tries to orchestrate events and outcomes.
He loves a fight, because it keeps him and MotoGP in the spotlight = more fans = more money.
DORMA also know this, and I am sure that between them, deals are done for the mutual benefit of the sport.


I think Rossi (like most high profile people) likes to get his own way.
There is a lot on the line. Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedders, and most of the past champions have been the same.


The show that is VR is what makes him a superstar, and is what keeps the fans, sponsors, and promoters happy = more money, and more power to remain at the top.
Lorenzo knows this and is trying to emulate Rossi.
Stoner and Pedders will never have the cult following (or the business potential) because no matter how good they are at riding the bikes, they will never be superstars like Rossi (and probably neither will Lorenzo outside Spain).


Rossi is one of the smartest guys in motorsport. It just helps that he is one of the greatest ever riders.

There is way too much negative .... on this forum, and the same people trying to smackdown the same riders gets boring.
Your joking right?? Couldn't detect the sarcasm??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 13 2009, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting the two dumbest posts just added both came from members of the lynch mob suggested above.......

I would argue every point but I have already done this many times on the same subject and quite frankly its getting really tiring, so the addition of sarcasm for entertainment purposes seems to be the logical thing to do as all credible argument was lost long ago......but if you really want I can argue every one of gaz's points? Any takers ?
I have absolutely no issue with any of valentino's motogp championship wins including the upcoming 9th one. I think, as I gather he does, that the 2004 and 2008 championships were particularly well deserved, and the 2009 one will probably rate very highly also.

My complaints from my perspective anyway concern the two recent titles he didn't win, and the belittling of both the achievement and character of the riders who did win, not that you yourself do this in hayden's case.

I claim Rossi has superior equipment but really that isn't a claim, he has and does. Formidable opponent that he is I still hope to see him get beat this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As a superstar, Rossi is in a different league to everyone, and to Rossi (and the business that is VR), that is just as important to him. Problem is that his superstar status relys on him winning races.

Of course… His Superstar Status relays on him winning races! This is it; Rossi has won like no other… Ever!

His PR would be BULLS if he had wan just a couple of races throughout his career (Elias). On top of it, the way he does it!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To be as successful as he has been, he must have the best equipment, but he has earned the right to have the best equipment.

But Rossi has not had the best ‘Always’. Of course a lot of the times yes, but still, ‘Not Always’!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and he has brought the results.

Here we agree completely!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi's best interests to make a spectacular race. I have no doubt he tries to orchestrate events and outcomes.

So on top of riding for a win, we agree that Rossi ‘orchestrate events and outcomes’… Bloody Hell, who else can do this so many times and not just run for the win?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He loves a fight, because it keeps him and MotoGP in the spotlight

I also think his passion for riding by itself influences this mainly, as an Artist or a philosopher would in their respective areas. Me, I love driving, and whenever I could get on a race and push it for a dog fight, my concentration and my reflex were just like no other time ever, and I have never ever raced officially.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi is one of the smartest guys in motorsport. It just helps that he is one of the greatest ever riders.

I would put it the other way around: Rossi is one of the greatest ever riders, it just helps that he is one of the smartest guys in motorsport.

Perhaps the greatest really, as I have posted tables as facts for this from MotoGP official numbers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As a racer, Stoner [or Pedrosa, or Lorenzo, or Hayden] is a match for Rossi.

Until the numbers check… I do not agree! A least 8 Championships and 103 wins. That is our ‘Mindless Yellow Tinted Colored Glasses’ fans’ problem exactly!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 13 2009, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is way too much negative .... on this forum, and the same people trying to smackdown the same riders gets boring.

Both ways. But it is not that I try to be negative, it is just that with Rossi’s achievements, he has a great example for every situation, for the last 12 years or more.

My turn

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok here we go anyway cause I'm bored, this is the first time I've heard you admit that anyone bar Rossi has had Superior equipment-are we getting somewhere??

Oh you must have missed many of my posts, even those with relation to Stoner so you may want to revisit some but you may also want to rethink as I have never said that only Rossi has had superior equipment - you may have me confused with others there. You may also be interested to search and you will also find that I have never said that he has always had the 'best equipment'.

So, as a reminder for you and to paraphrase many of my other posts - there is no doubt that many riders have equipment that is not available to others - ergo, superior equipment, even Rossi.

So, now, let me say are you saying he has superior equipment - sounds like it.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So did it occur for Rossi and a variety of other riders? To bring it up means that you need some serious evidence to back up who got them, what advantage, if any, did they gain and how did this affect each Championship race, this doesn't account for Rossi's Titles in 2008, 2001, 1999, 1997 either

You know the answer to this and I have posted it previously but again, just for you.

The 'overnight' specials were made for many riders throughout the various eras and were made to their individual specifications, requirements or preferences. Yes Rossi was one of these riders who would have received these 'specials' and this has been acknowledged by Michelin at various times (even seem to recall VR alluding to it in interviews). Was he alone in his era - highly doubtful as I would expect the likes of the team #1 who used Michelin to have had the opportunity.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Me thinks you thinks very wrong here mate......I have seen many, many posts saying that this is the only reason VR has won anything

Lets agree to disagree as I don't see people saying the sole reason, but see people mentioning it as a contributory reason.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any proof please.......written or Video, credible as well please....

I will not quote opinion as fact (unlike some) and as you can see in the original post it is just that, an opinion, as is yours that he has little to no influence.

Do I have proof - nope, just as you have no proof that he does not but for mine and I will say again, his sheer pulling power means that many decisions would have been made by DORNA with him in mind (whether he played an active part is another question).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Proof again please........if he had so much influence why are we still watching 800's? Hasn't VR been vehemently opposed to the 800's since their conception? And if Drona caved into VR's preferences even if he didn't want it.....how can this be then called manipulation or deliberate manipulation to gain advantage?

VR only became extremely vocal about the 800's once they had been experienced - not so much prior though one does not really know what his preferences were at that time. Certainly however, since he has experienced the machines he has become extremely vocal as an opponent of the 800cc formula (as are a number of the riders)


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fair point he has attracted some wallys, but surely through his mass-appeal the sport has also gained some Fair-dinkum fans for life which can't be a bad thing.....I know a lot of Aussies who have only been watching since 2007 in hope that CS can beat him again, so on the Flip side it can be said that CS attracted a lot of patriarchal wallys himself, door swings both ways. Nickys title in 06-same can be said and so on and so on....

Absolutely the door swings both ways and I fully expected you to make that point and in fact, before your time in this forum was a Stoner fan called CSCVAW who (as surprising as this may be for some of the newer members), made many of todays 'wallys' seem tame (and I believe was banned). So yep, fully works both ways sadly but again, weight of numbers means that there is more yellow than red at the moment so they are more noticeable.

As for the fans, I have no doubt that there will be a large number who stay as they will have seen something in the sport, it is not these people whom are the 'wallys' (to use your term). But, and I will use your own statements here, no doubt CS has bought people along who will stay as well (as an example) so the more that watch, enjoy and remain the merrier.

Again I will say, that for me, the VR phenomenon is parralleled with that of Tiger Woods and the very same type of fandom issues are occurring and being experienced - as with MGP, golf will be at a crossroad of sorts when Tiger gives up the game.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you feeling ok? Though the praise was for his Media string pulling and not riding ability....

Where have I dissed his riding - fark, no matter how stupid you may think me, I sure as crap aint that stupid.

I have said before and will say again, he is a phenomenon and if you review my posts you will see I often use that word (and acquaint him with Tigers impactfor Golf) which should surely give an insight into my thoughts. Where I rate him is irrespective because of my own 500cc bias, but there is no doubt at all that his records will remain for a great many years and possibly, for all time.

And yes, he does manipulate the media brilliantly and this is actually why many people like him so as he often plays with the media. But that also means that he uses them for his own wants and needs, something that every person in the paddock will and should be doing as that increases their marketability and therefore income potential.

To put it simply (now - sit down here) people new to the game should watch, listen and learn how 'teamRossi' works in regards to the media as it will only benefit them in the long run (and not criticism of CS/DP there as they choose not to).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes indeed, times have changed but if you are to ridicule the talent then his reasons and other relevant talent reasons in the past need to be addressed as a point of reference in defense

Gotta be honest, this line kinda lost me a bit and after a few reads still does.

The point that for me is most relevant is that he is whinging, whining and complaining - we have seen articles and at times video where he is taking potshots of sorts.

The secondary to that point is that he is fully allowed and within his rights as are all these riders allowed to be critical, but the fact it is VR being so public is unusual and open for comment is it not?

What I do always find interesting is the defense often taken that when VR is criticised for a comment, people will say that he is entitled to make such comments because of his record - I say fair enough. But, why then aren't others entitled to be critical of similar/same aspects as personally, record should mean little dependent on the topic being discussed (ie. history of racing VR wins over JL, Yamaha current performance both have equal right to discuss).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not at all, but you gave satirical reference to Stoner's derogatory posts, and not VR's, Pedders, Gibbers etc.....and how is this different?.....so I ask why don't you give us your satirical spin on the others as I did with VR's, oh hang on you were busy arguing Rossi's Ridiculous detractors comments I highlighted, hmmmm maybe I should have made you assistant to the prosecution instead!!!

Surely you do a good enough job yourself of arguing the detractors but hey, when I see the same level of personal attacks launched against VR, the unfounded allegations that remain unrproven at this point given they have no credible sources, then I will create a satirical response.

What I find interesting is that you seem so hung up on people making .... of other fans in a satirical sense with no personal attack or abuse, will you now take the same level of umbrage when similar is done against others.

Nope, thought not as now I have been promoted up the order in your satirical sense.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 12:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Answered this one.....and once again you can see my colours.....but others sadly try to hide theirs, not too well I might add...


Woohoo, labelled again and yep, you sure have shown your colours proudly.

Again I will say it, even though it will not be believed but nope I am not a Stoner fan in the same manner as you are with VR etc but I do and will put my thoughts into the realm when racing is being discussed whether it be the popular line or not. If by doing this people wish to label me as a fan of rider X than I guess so be it but I also expect that I will remain watching the sport well beyond many making the accusations.

And to any local fans in the area, you are more than welcome to come to my house, inspect it for any paraphernalia as you will only find very little dating back some years - I actually have nothing from the last 10 years or so - a fan of the sport, yes, a fan of a rider - not in MGP.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 14 2009, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course… His Superstar Status relays on him winning races! This is it; Rossi has won like no other… Ever!

V, you knew I would have tojust for the fun of it and to wind up a few others but you are wrong here as Rossi has not won like no other ... ever.

He is second in total race wins and championships to Ago so that is an incorrect statement (but hey, I do know what you mean but couldn't help myself and want to fire others up a bit)


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 14 2009, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>His PR would be BULLS if he had wan just a couple of races throughout his career (Elias). On top of it, the way he does it!

I suppose it is perspective and while I do fully agree with you here, I wonder why the likes of CEii and even DP etc have such high media profiles given their records to date (genuinely wonder that actually).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 14 2009, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But Rossi has not had the best ‘Always’. Of course a lot of the times yes, but still, ‘Not Always’!

No rider has ever always had the 'best of' but all do deserve an opportunity to have access to teh 'best of' (oh, and that is just an opinion there ) as that then shows the true ability of the riders as the excuses are removed (and no VR criticism).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 14 2009, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So on top of riding for a win, we agree that Rossi ‘orchestrate events and outcomes’… Bloody Hell, who else can do this so many times and not just run for the win?

I know that this is an often repeated comment and whilst yes there woudl be a level of evidence to support it, I strongly feel that has not been teh case for a few years given the competition is now so close.

Yes, Talpa I do admit that there have been times when VR has orchestrated to keep races closer but is that not a form of manipulation (just playing with you).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 14 2009, 02:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Until the numbers check… I do not agree! A least 8 Championships and 103 wins. That is our ‘Mindless Yellow Tinted Colored Glasses’ fans’ problem exactly!

I know you are joking a bit with that line but, for me, to say that people can only be compared when they have equalled Rossi is wrong as Rossi has (throughout his career) been compared to many who had better records at the time of comparison.

To me, there are riders who are as quick as VR over one lap, but one lap is not a race and no points are awarded so it is race finishes that count and it is the consistency that VR has shown that many seem to overlook as to be where he has been for so long is an achievement in itself.





Gaz

Its been my experience that those owned in a debate think digging will magically get them out of a hole. Lets not change that insane method now, by all means, continue digging Talpa.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My turn



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh you must have missed many of my posts, even those with relation to Stoner so you may want to revisit some but you may also want to rethink as I have never said that only Rossi has had superior equipment - you may have me confused with others there. You may also be interested to search and you will also find that I have never said that he has always had the 'best equipment'.

So, as a reminder for you and to paraphrase many of my other posts - there is no doubt that many riders have equipment that is not available to others - ergo, superior equipment, even Rossi.

So, now, let me say are you saying he has superior equipment - sounds like it.

Nope certainly wasn't, just referencing many here, and my statement was I have never read this in one of your post- not that it might not have been there. Now that we are on to it-Who has had superior OR Similar equipment to Rossi over the years- Here is my list, remember Superior or Similar!!!;

Casey Stoner 2007-2008
Danny Pedrosa 2006-2007
Nicky Hayden 2003-2004-2005-2006-2007
Sete Gibernau 2002-2003-2004-2005
Alex Crivelle 2000-2001
Kenny Roberts JNR 2000-2001
Max Biaggi 2004-2005
Teti Harada 1998-99
Loris Caparossi 1998-1999-2006-2007
Colin Edwards 2005-2006-2007

I've probably missed some, but its already quite a list- So VR has had to beat a couple of good rider/bike combos in his time.....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You know the answer to this and I have posted it previously but again, just for you.

The 'overnight' specials were made for many riders throughout the various eras and were made to their individual specifications, requirements or preferences. Yes Rossi was one of these riders who would have received these 'specials' and this has been acknowledged by Michelin at various times (even seem to recall VR alluding to it in interviews). Was he alone in his era - highly doubtful as I would expect the likes of the team #1 who used Michelin to have had the opportunity.

I asked for names, races and effect on the title outcome. The only name you have is VR and 'others', if we are going to point the finger we need to know all of the directions. So at the moment without accurate data, it can be said that any rider with Michelin in those years could have had an overnight special made up for them, including many listed above.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lets agree to disagree as I don't see people saying the sole reason, but see people mentioning it as a contributory reason.

Yes enough time wasted here already

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I will not quote opinion as fact (unlike some) and as you can see in the original post it is just that, an opinion, as is yours that he has little to no influence.

Do I have proof - nope, just as you have no proof that he does not but for mine and I will say again, his sheer pulling power means that many decisions would have been made by DORNA with him in mind (whether he played an active part is another question).

I never said I had proof that he hasn't had influence, only questioned the ridiculous back-door/room conspiracy theories. Stats help me with this opinion, especially in recent years.....how could someone with so much 'behind the scenes influence over the sport and its governing body have lost 2 world titles in a row?? And until its proven otherwise with cold hard facts, its all a bunch of hot air-the likes of which emanates from a Dutch oven

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>VR only became extremely vocal about the 800's once they had been experienced - not so much prior though one does not really know what his preferences were at that time. Certainly however, since he has experienced the machines he has become extremely vocal as an opponent of the 800cc formula (as are a number of the riders)

So, with so much 'so-called' influence, how has he not had the 800's banned and returned to his 990cc preference. Surely if he had enough influence to gain unfair technical advantages to win multiple world titles then this would be a walk in the park-right?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Absolutely the door swings both ways and I fully expected you to make that point and in fact, before your time in this forum was a Stoner fan called CSCVAW who (as surprising as this may be for some of the newer members), made many of todays 'wallys' seem tame (and I believe was banned). So yep, fully works both ways sadly but again, weight of numbers means that there is more yellow than red at the moment so they are more noticeable.

As for the fans, I have no doubt that there will be a large number who stay as they will have seen something in the sport, it is not these people whom are the 'wallys' (to use your term). But, and I will use your own statements here, no doubt CS has bought people along who will stay as well (as an example) so the more that watch, enjoy and remain the merrier.

Again I will say, that for me, the VR phenomenon is parralleled with that of Tiger Woods and the very same type of fandom issues are occurring and being experienced - as with MGP, golf will be at a crossroad of sorts when Tiger gives up the game.

I do remember that member. So really VR just has it on noticeable numbers, and those who blame him for bringing these people to the sport need to realize that their own heroes have the same or similar kinds following them too, just in smaller numbers, which was my point.