Ducati: Stoner influence is not big/still staying quit

AJV80 said:

Although Suzuka maybe very important in Japan, it pales in comparison to HRC's concern and ambitions of winning in MotoGP. It's like Bathurst and Formula 1.

Click to expand...

Suzuka is less important now than it was but HRC have been a little more serious over the last few years since Yamaha started using their MotoGP riders so I suspect that it's meaning is again gaining strength.

I have no doubt that the reason they let CS ride it was because he wanted to, a bucket list type of thing and they could see benefit from it as it strengthened their team (his times were top Honda as well from memory until the stuck throttle)

AJV80 said:

You honestly think Honda declined Stoner Dani's ride for no particular reason other than "Casey deserves to be fighting for the podium rubbish he churned out to the press" what a load of complete ........ that was. When they offered him rides earlier and had no issues with it. Do you really think Honda thought Aoyama would get better results than Stoner when he finished in 11th? What was so wrong with the bike that Stoner wouldnt be able to fight for the podium on, when Marquez finished in 1st? Some times you have to read between the lines.

Click to expand...

It was reported that HRC declined for a few reasons, including lack of test time for Stoner and concerns about his race fitness, whilst Stoner himself said he would expect a 5th place finish at best, so they (HRC) went with Aoyama (not at Stoner's behest). There was some speculation as to whether team Marquez had input in as much that they did not want CS to ride so early in the season so make of the varied stories what you choose but if HRC were unhappy that early with CS than they would have pulled him from Suzuka which they did say was important for them.

As for Aoyama, well look at this year and you may see an answer.

Other riders were available and HRC chose Aoyama did they not, so in short it has little to do with results as if they (HRC) were concerned about results they would use riders that can compete at a higher level than Aoyama (who's race pace actually shows why having a high quality test rider is critical to progress).

But reading between the lines is fraught with danger by one's own bias, perceptions, interpretations and exaggerations as well so often reading between the lines distorts the story and life is based on what happens, not what may happen if ............

Gaz said:

Suzuka is less important now than it was but HRC have been a little more serious over the last few years since Yamaha started using their MotoGP riders so I suspect that it's meaning is again gaining strength.

I have no doubt that the reason they let CS ride it was because he wanted to, a bucket list type of thing and they could see benefit from it as it strengthened their team (his times were top Honda as well from memory until the stuck throttle)





It was reported that HRC declined for a few reasons, including lack of test time for Stoner and concerns about his race fitness, whilst Stoner himself said he would expect a 5th place finish at best, so they (HRC) went with Aoyama (not at Stoner's behest). There was some speculation as to whether team Marquez had input in as much that they did not want CS to ride so early in the season so make of the varied stories what you choose but if HRC were unhappy that early with CS than they would have pulled him from Suzuka which they did say was important for them.

As for Aoyama, well look at this year and you may see an answer.

Other riders were available and HRC chose Aoyama did they not, so in short it has little to do with results as if they (HRC) were concerned about results they would use riders that can compete at a higher level than Aoyama (who's race pace actually shows why having a high quality test rider is critical to progress).

But reading between the lines is fraught with danger by one's own bias, perceptions, interpretations and exaggerations as well so often reading between the lines distorts the story and life is based on what happens, not what may happen if ............

Click to expand...

Sorry Gaz, but you haven't sold me mate.

Stoner declined an offer to ride for Honda, Honda decline Stoners offer to ride for them, Stoner leaves Honda ..... no perception or interpretation or reading in Honda's word soup press statements for me, just facts.

HRC aren't interested and conrcerned with race results .... ? Really

AJV80 said:

Sorry Gaz, but you haven't sold me mate.

Stoner declined an offer to ride for Honda, Honda decline Stoners offer to ride for them, Stoner leaves Honda ..... no perception or interpretation or reading in Honda's word soup to the press meant for me, just facts.

Click to expand...

I ain't trying to sell you anything .............. although I am aware of a bridge that may soon be on the market and have heard of a hypermotard possibly being up sometime soon.

You are missing some facts of the HRC leave as well .......... including comments made by team Marquez relating to Stoner and his testing outcomes ......... funnily enough, they did come back to bit a little when it was found out that CS had complained at the start of the year in testing, of the same issues that Marquez was complaining of later in the season.

There is little doubt that CS was pissed off with HRC but I suspect that their denial of his wish to ride at Austin was but one small part together with the initial comments from Suzuka, team Marquez comments and dare I suggest a better offer from Ducati who were desperate to get him for WDW.

The thing is, from all reports CS and Nakamoto are still on good terms (same cannot be said for CS and Suppo) just as CS is on good terms with many of the existing Ducati back room staff (it was said that he sought Preziosi whilst overseas - never heard if they had a catch up).

So CS is no corporate player, and some feel that will affect him going forward (no news there, Roger past of this forum tipped it in around 2009, Talps around 2011) but he will continue to be around if there is benefit in it for teams, manufacturers, or for Stoner himself although I suspect that he will disappear to the quiet of his property.

Gaz said:

I ain't trying to sell you anything .............. although I am aware of a bridge that may soon be on the market and have heard of a hypermotard possibly being up sometime soon.

You are missing some facts of the HRC leave as well .......... including comments made by team Marquez relating to Stoner and his testing outcomes ......... funnily enough, they did come back to bit a little when it was found out that CS had complained at the start of the year in testing, of the same issues that Marquez was complaining of later in the season.

There is little doubt that CS was pissed off with HRC but I suspect that their denial of his wish to ride at Austin was but one small part together with the initial comments from Suzuka, team Marquez comments and dare I suggest a better offer from Ducati who were desperate to get him for WDW.

The thing is, from all reports CS and Nakamoto are still on good terms (same cannot be said for CS and Suppo) just as CS is on good terms with many of the existing Ducati back room staff (it was said that he sought Preziosi whilst overseas - never heard if they had a catch up).

So CS is no corporate player, and some feel that will affect him going forward (no news there, Roger past of this forum tipped it in around 2009, Talps around 2011) but he will continue to be around if there is benefit in it for teams, manufacturers, or for Stoner himself although I suspect that he will disappear to the quiet of his property.

Click to expand...

I do believe that the Marquez side of the garage may have also played a part with Stoner leaving HRC but haven't really heard anything about it so who knows type thing, either way it would surprise me.

I'm sure Nakamoto and Stoner are fine, Its the people above him that hold the purse strings that most likely have the issues with Stoner. They pay Stoner and cant understand why he wont do a fill in race for them when required.

Stoner not riding for Ducati when Ianonne was injured certainly wouldnt have done him any favoures with the company. Stoner enjoys riding the fast GP bikes, which is the reason he has been involved as a test rider. His reluctance to assist when required will make it hard for teams to justify having him on the books. I'm sure he is a great rider but Pirro and Dovi have done a great job with the Ducati and Lorenzo will only strengthen this. I wouldnt be surprised at all if Ducati drop him from their books should Lorenzo get results. Lorenzo has cost them a lot of money, $12m per season i think will be a hard sell to justify Stoner on top of this.

AJV80 said:

Stoner not riding for Ducati when Ianonne was injured certainly wouldnt have done him any favoures with the company. Stoner enjoys riding the fast GP bikes, which is the reason he has been involved as a test rider. His reluctance to assist when required will make it hard for teams to justify having him on the books. I'm sure he is a great rider but Pirro and Dovi have done a great job with the Ducati and Lorenzo will only strengthen this. I wouldnt be surprised at all if Ducati drop him from their books should Lorenzo get results. Lorenzo has cost them a lot of money, $12m per season i think will be a hard sell to justify Stoner on top of this.

Click to expand...

I also would not be surprised if they dropped him(although likely for different reasons to yourself) as now they have actually achieved a lot of what they set out to do and were rumoured to want from his signing ............... pressure to perform on existing riders, race wins, World Ducati Week adulation and attracted a genuine top rider (or alien as the preferred term seems to be).

I have a bet that JL will finish top 2 in the title chase within his first contract and I fully expect it to happen as I tend to think that perhaps people are underselling JL a little as he has adapted in the past and this year has been his first true year where he has performed so inconsistently.

As for Ducati's expectations, whilst Ciabatti has had his say today, Domenicali the CEO made it clear that they did not expect CS to race back in April when discussing CS and Lorenzo ....... Ducati rules out Stoner's MotoGP return

ClaudioDomenicali said:

"I think I can rule out with some confidence that he will come back to racing in MotoGP."

Click to expand...

So clearly the CEO is out of touch with his racing department, or the racing department expectations did not match that of the CEO

Gaz said:

I also would not be surprised if they dropped him(although likely for different reasons to yourself) as now they have actually achieved a lot of what they set out to do and were rumoured to want from his signing ............... pressure to perform on existing riders, race wins, World Ducati Week adulation and attracted a genuine top rider (or alien as the preferred term seems to be).

I have a bet that JL will finish top 2 in the title chase within his first contract and I fully expect it to happen as I tend to think that perhaps people are underselling JL a little as he has adapted in the past and this year has been his first true year where he has performed so inconsistently.

As for Ducati's expectations, whilst Ciabatti has had his say today, Domenicali the CEO made it clear that they did not expect CS to race back in April when discussing CS and Lorenzo ....... Ducati rules out Stoner's MotoGP return



So clearly the CEO is out of touch with his racing department, or the racing department expectations did not match that of the CEO

Click to expand...

I think Ducati will 86 Stoner, I don't see any point for them to keep him around. I'd argue that his involvement this season hasn't contributed to the bikes Success so much as the steady development path it was already on with Dovi and Pirro mixed with the unified electronics levelling the field to a degree.

Id love to see Lorenzo do well with Ducati, the bike seems very point and shoot bike which doesn't suit his smooth high corner speed style. If they can get it to work for his style he would be able to exploit its power quite well.

Lorenzo has struggled this season with the Michelin fronts, especially the wet tyres. I do think the tyres next year will be similar to what they have now but not exactly the same, hopefully better. Considering he struggled to adapt to the tyres this year i get the feeling he may struggle with change. He has been with Yamaha for 8 years and I don't think a new bike is going to be easy for him to get his head around just based off him dealing with new tyres on a familiar bike like the Yamaha. Hope I'm wrong because having him winning races on the Ducati would be awesome.

I'm looking forward to the Valencia test more than i am the race.

AJV80 said:

I think Ducati will 86 Stoner, I don't see any point for them to keep him around. I'd argue that his involvement this season hasn't contributed to the bikes Success so much as the steady development path it was already on with Dovi and Pirro mixed with the unified electronics levelling the field to a degree.

Click to expand...

As I said, I would also not be surprised as it was only a 1 year gig and just as he kept his side of the bargain, there is no reason for Ducati to want more.

As for CS' input to this year, I will simply say that coincidences aside, I do suspect that his times lit a fire under the two riders and personally I suspect that to have been one of the prime factors in the first place as really, despite 2015 being a reasonable year for them (remembering that in 2015 they had concessions) they still needed to step up in a few areas.

IMO only, but if I was a contracted rider riding the GP16 and some guy who has hardly ridden a bike comes out an beats be whilst he is riding the GP15, I know I need to step up somewhat as that guy has shown what last years bike was capable of and if this year is built to my likings, then I best be bloody good on it.

AJV80 said:

Id love to see Lorenzo do well with Ducati, the bike seems very point and shoot bike which doesn't suit his smooth high corner speed style. If they can get it to work for his style he would be able to exploit its power quite well.

Click to expand...

Thing is that JL did change his style when he first got to MotoGP, sure it was after a few trips to the medical centre but he changed, learnt, adapted and eventually mastered and I suspect that he will do so again albeit hopefully without the medical centre trips.

AJV80 said:

Lorenzo has struggled this season with the Michelin fronts, especially the wet tyres. I do think the tyres next year will be similar to what they have now but not exactly the same, hopefully better. Considering he struggled to adapt to the tyres this year i get the feeling he may struggle with change. He has been with Yamaha for 8 years and I don't think a new bike is going to be easy for him to get his head around just based off him dealing with new tyres on a familiar bike like the Yamaha. Hope I'm wrong because having him winning races on the Ducati would be awesome.

Click to expand...

Have said before and will say again but 2016 was Michelin's first year back, thus little to no data from which to work be that at track level, bike level or even rider level.

They enter 2017 with a full year of data (and talk of dropping the intermediate) and so I fully expect that the tyres will be a more consistent tyre in terms of performance which I suspect has been the issue. We should also not forget that Rossi has mentioned trouble getting heat into the front on the Yamaha so JL is not alone with tyre issues although of greater impact may be the removal of the wing as it is said to impact the front and thus allow faster buiding of tyre heat (this may be a bigger impact on JL)

As for Valencia, I do put little on it in terms of placing much for the new season and I say this as recent history has shown that we seemingly get late changes that impact the results from the tests, thus a comfortable rider at Valencia may be another's dunce come Sepang tests due to changes etc.

But, Valencia is all about scoring points in terms of beating those against whom you wish to be measured so I expect a good battle between JL, MV and AI

Gaz said:

As I said, I would also not be surprised as it was only a 1 year gig and just as he kept his side of the bargain, there is no reason for Ducati to want more.

As for CS' input to this year, I will simply say that coincidences aside, I do suspect that his times lit a fire under the two riders and personally I suspect that to have been one of the prime factors in the first place as really, despite 2015 being a reasonable year for them (remembering that in 2015 they had concessions) they still needed to step up in a few areas.

IMO only, but if I was a contracted rider riding the GP16 and some guy who has hardly ridden a bike comes out an beats be whilst he is riding the GP15, I know I need to step up somewhat as that guy has shown what last years bike was capable of and if this year is built to my likings, then I best be bloody good on it.





Thing is that JL did change his style when he first got to MotoGP, sure it was after a few trips to the medical centre but he changed, learnt, adapted and eventually mastered and I suspect that he will do so again albeit hopefully without the medical centre trips.




Have said before and will say again but 2016 was Michelin's first year back, thus little to no data from which to work be that at track level, bike level or even rider level.

They enter 2017 with a full year of data (and talk of dropping the intermediate) and so I fully expect that the tyres will be a more consistent tyre in terms of performance which I suspect has been the issue. We should also not forget that Rossi has mentioned trouble getting heat into the front on the Yamaha so JL is not alone with tyre issues although of greater impact may be the removal of the wing as it is said to impact the front and thus allow faster buiding of tyre heat (this may be a bigger impact on JL)

As for Valencia, I do put little on it in terms of placing much for the new season and I say this as recent history has shown that we seemingly get late changes that impact the results from the tests, thus a comfortable rider at Valencia may be another's dunce come Sepang tests due to changes etc.

But, Valencia is all about scoring points in terms of beating those against whom you wish to be measured so I expect a good battle between JL, MV and AI

Click to expand...

Obviously Michelin had no track data, no secret. They didn't bring a yellow pages full of tyre options to each round because they knew what they where doing.

Casey riding fast to put a rocket up them .. maybe ..., I doubt AD and AI where not trying hard in 2015 concessions last year or not. They are professionals getting paid to go fast and win, its in their own interest and DNA to do so if they want to progress they're career, seemed to work well enough to get them to the premier class. They don't need Stoner to ride fast on the Ducati to motivate them, based on what Stoner cost they could have just brought in Tim Robbins to every round to do a live show, not only helped the riders but transformed the lives of all the team members. Tim Robbins would have been more than happy to sit in for Ianonne and have a go.

IMO The electronics made the biggest difference to results this year (22 litres of fuel up from 20 helped soften the blow), .... weather second and tyres last. They may have been crap and a lottery each round but they where like that for everyone. That wouldnt have changed the pecking order to much and the end of year results indicate that.



Ducati have spared no expense when it came to development of their GP16, they even brought the guys from Megaforce in to assist with the development and testing of their winglet designs.

AJV80 said:

With Honda they had tried to coax him on occasions to ride with their team which he declined. Honda are a Japanese team and the biggest team in terms of budget and most riders would be honoured for the opportunity. Stoner declining them was a huge insult to them and a sign of disrespect and they would have seen this as a huge slap in the face. Stoner offering to ride for the injured Dani was declined by Honda as a way of payback for the way he insulted them even though it was like cutting off their nose to spite their face in terms of results. Stoner could sense this and thats why he left Honda soon after and ended up moving back with Ducati.

Click to expand...

When nakamoto offered a new contract for 2013, it was the highest offer ever made by honda racing department to their riders & drivers. When Casey refusing, perhaps it was the rudest insult to the whole company? Sign of disrespect?

Then on Monday night after Valencia 2012, HRC held a farewell party, after the party nakamoto and casey stayed on, chatting. Eventually nakamoto couldn't hold his tears, he said he feel so sad that Casey is leaving. Did he using "sad" as metaphor, perhaps?

So when he's leaving to Ducati, he accused Marquez's entourage felt threatened by him, (later emmet confirmed it in his forum), that made HRC doesn't use him properly, is ........? The truth is they're just upset at him?

they had tried to coax him on occasions to ride with their team which he declined.

Click to expand...

They did? I don't remember any occasion when they offered him a ride aft his retirement. Could you find me some links?

What I don't get with Stoner is that it wasn't the actual racing which pissed him off but all the PR and testing which came with it yet now several years after his 'retirement' he's happy to be a test rider and walking commercial but not race.

It's a shame that his ambition never matched his talent

AntG said:

What I don't get with Stoner is that it wasn't the actual racing which pissed him off but all the PR and testing which came with it yet now several years after his 'retirement' he's happy to be a test rider and walking commercial but not race.

Click to expand...

Maybe the guy is not that happy about it, maybe he looked at his wife one day and said ".... it, I'll just go back and milk my fame for what it's worth while we can"

He might of wanted a new house or bigger farm or both and 3 rides over 12 months may have got it for him.

Who knows?

HelloMars said:

When nakamoto offered a new contract for 2013, it was the highest offer ever made by honda racing department to their riders & drivers. When Casey refusing, perhaps it was the rudest insult to the whole company? Sign of disrespect?

Then on Monday night after Valencia 2012, HRC held a farewell party, after the party nakamoto and casey stayed on, chatting. Eventually nakamoto couldn't hold his tears, he said he feel so sad that Casey is leaving. Did he using "sad" as metaphor, perhaps?

So when he's leaving to Ducati, he accused Marquez's entourage felt threatened by him, (later emmet confirmed it in his forum), that made HRC doesn't use him properly, is ........? The truth is they're just upset at him?



They did? I don't remember any occasion when they offered him a ride aft his retirement. Could you find me some links?

Click to expand...

I mainly remember the 2013 offical offer like you mentioned, I had read somewhere that he was asked again by Nakamoto in 2014 for a race comeback but not with an official offer like in 2013, I figured it was something similar to Ducati's recent offer made to him to do a race but Nakamoto says he wanted him back full time in MotoGP. The media where talking about it a lot that year but I honestly put alot of that down to media trying to milk the story and keep it going for as long as they could. I remember hoping that he would do a race because I want to see him and Marc go head to head on the Honda's as id imagine many people would.

Casey Stoner says no (again) to MotoGP comeback | FOX Sports

JPSLotus said:

That's why I am done being an apologist for the guy.

He clearly has no ....... idea what he wants to do, and everything changes on his whims, or whomever/whatever he needs to spite at a given moment.

Sad thing is he would have been welcomed back by a lot of people, and probably gotten more of the respect he felt he wasn't accorded in his first stint.

Ducati should tell him unless he is willing to stand in for injured riders or to wild card, his services are not needed. Puts everything in his court, and he can .... off back to Australia if he doesn't like it.

My belief rightly or wrongly is that to have that much talent, and to not put it to use when you still have the time to do it, is to not appreciate life. I'm not going to debate this with anyone. You don't have to agree with that. But I look at the larger picture of how fortunate Casey was in spite of all of the BS, to be able to race motorcycles for a living, and to amass a fortune in the process. He gave nothing back in the end other than this periodic cockteases. Sorry Casey, without the fans, you never could have had the opportunity to do that as that's where the money starts.

Click to expand...

I understood the reasons for, and respected his decision to, retire.

I am coming around to your point of view on the test riding though. There seems to be little point to it, with the only thing he is achieving being to piss off the 2 teams he won championships for by demonstrating how fast he still is. He seems to have done everything he actually contracted to do, but whatever he or they say imo Ducati in particular, and to a lesser extent HRC before MM became so clearly their long term future as far as riders go, had some motive of attracting him back as a race rider.

AJV80 said:

Well the Ducati budget would have taken a big hit with Lorenzo now on the books. With a big name world champion on the team they may not have the cash to justify having Stoner around for publicity. Probably depend on how Lorenzo performs on the Ducati to a degree.

Click to expand...

Stoner doesn't really need the cash. It seems evident that he still savors the energy in the paddock and enjoys having input into the sport. I'm guessing he would continue to participate in his own fashion as long as his input is not ignored. Lorenzo is going to need all the help he can get and I can envision Stoner being there to coach him, especially if there's potential for Jorge to beat Vale.

Keshav said:

Stoner doesn't really need the cash. It seems evident that he still savors the energy in the paddock and enjoys having input into the sport. I'm guessing he would continue to participate in his own fashion as long as his input is not ignored. Lorenzo is going to need all the help he can get and I can envision Stoner being there to coach him, especially if there's potential for Jorge to beat Vale.

Click to expand...

Good point. I had forgotten about the coaching Lorenzo thing. If he is serious about that, and a genuine chance of helping Jorge to beat Rossi (if there is one) would I imagine motivate him quite strongly even apart from any friendship with Jorge, then demonstrating (as I believe he probably could have done at Austria or PI this year) that he is still the fastest Ducati rider ever in an actual race would not really help Jorge's cause

I Thought similar, that Lorenzo had signed for Ducati and figured Stoner may br a part of team jl ducati. Wouldn't be too good perhaps posting better times than jl may ever achive on the bike. I hope that jl does well on it and the above scenario does not happen.

Stoner may have got on the bike and thought he was ready and fit and pushed beyond his comfort zone to post those times testing, realised he's slower than Dovi and Ianonne and thought that pushing to be amongst the front runners was out of reach or tisk/reward was not in his favour. He never has come across as someone that will settle for a lower place.

michaelm said:

I understood the reasons for, and respected his decision to, retire.

I am coming around to your point of view on the test riding though. There seems to be little point to it, with the only thing he is achieving being to piss off the 2 teams he won championships for by demonstrating how fast he still is. He seems to have done everything he actually contracted to do, but whatever he or they say imo Ducati in particular, and to a lesser extent HRC before MM became so clearly their long term future as far as riders go, had some motive of attracting him back as a race rider.

Click to expand...

I think the same thing, his value as a test rider to the teams was dwarfed by Honda and Ducati's true motive and deep down desire to see him come back and do some races for them.

The test rider gig is a great way for them to keep him close and involved enough that if he ever wanted to jump into a race it would be an easy transition for both of them. Thats what made it all the more strange when he finally offered to ride for Honda and they knocked him back.

aaronl said:

I Thought similar, that Lorenzo had signed for Ducati and figured Stoner may br a part of team jl ducati. Wouldn't be too good perhaps posting better times than jl may ever achive on the bike. I hope that jl does well on it and the above scenario does not happen.

Stoner may have got on the bike and thought he was ready and fit and pushed beyond his comfort zone to post those times testing, realised he's slower than Dovi and Ianonne and thought that pushing to be amongst the front runners was out of reach or tisk/reward was not in his favour. He never has come across as someone that will settle for a lower place.

Click to expand...

Yeah I also wondered whether the last test had any bearing on his decision. The previous test he was faster but at Red Bull ring Dovi and Iannone times set faster times. Stoner set out to set a good time, putting in the fastest first and second sectors before crashing.