Ducati: Stoner influence is not big/still staying quit

HelloMars · Nov 5, 2016

Gaz said:
Maybe not, but I have seen in a few places now that people are starting to ask what the difference between 2013/2014/2015 and 2016 is in the Ducati test regime ............ and they are coming up with an equation.

I'm keen to know further detail.

Gaz said:
Whether it is correct or not we shall not know, but there are coincidences and there are kicks up the bum and as someone in this forum said at the start of the year (cannot recall who), maybe CS is there to show what the bike can do and give the others a hurry up

I remember that also. It was a very good point.

JKant said:
Probably the latter. Sadly.

Don't see how it would pressure the other riders. Iannone was out with injury and leaving for Suzuki at the end of the year anyway. Meanwhile Dovizioso is a professional #2, not that there's anything wrong with finishing behind Stoner.

Ducati & its sponsors would have been happy to see him race even if he wasn't fighting for a podium (the alternative being Pirro/Barbera). Same for Dorna. Only people it would worry were Marquez, Rossi & Lorenzo, just in case Stoner turned out to be unexpectedly competitive (potentially messing up the pts equation). No skin off Stoner's nose.

Lorenzo is the only rider using psycho therapy as his regular training, besides physical training. I'm not sure what for, but I'm guessing there is some mentality issues within lorenzo. I remember in 2010, he said his performance more or less has something to do with his mindset.

Casey's comeback could've been building a wall on Lorenzo’s mind. Maybe he doesn't want to put any wall on JL next season. Let him adapt, get comfortable first. Casey doesn't want to failing ducati's new signing as supposedly winning man.

BarryMachine · Nov 5, 2016

Hollywood said:
I really think Ducati were expecting more out of Stoner... he tested twice I think... never saw him in the paddock at GPs... I did not see any Ducati promos with him... did he even attend World Ducati Week?

Read his contract

Well what the Ducati guy said was in the contract ...... unless you are calling "ambasadorial duties" as racing in a gp.

Gaz · Nov 5, 2016

HelloMars said:
I'm keen to know further detail.

The answer is simple for those discussing ........... the difference was that in prior years Stoner was not involved thus the questions that are being asked is did he identify something or was his presence motivational (ie. did the riders see what he did in tests and go 'oh ...., finger out time'?)

The talk has been all forum based across a few places although there may have been whispers in the press at some stage

Hollywood · Nov 6, 2016

BarryMachine said:
Read his contract

Well what the Ducati guy said was in the contract ...... unless you are calling "ambasadorial duties" as racing in a gp.

I am sure they were not expecting him to ride on the existing contract, but new contracts could be made, and it sounds like they were offered, just not accepted.... A 3 race contract could have been very lucrative for Stoner and Ducati, but he declined it... Maybe its just my perspective as a greedy America, or perhaps the Italian brand made him an offer he could refuse.

povol · Nov 6, 2016

I read an article the other day and can't find it now, but the tone was that Ducati is very disappointed in Stoners refusal to fill in for Ianoone and even though he fulfilled his obligations, they are upset enough to cut ties. I would like to hear why he was willing to fill in for Pedrosa last year and not for Ianoone this year

JPSLotus · Nov 6, 2016

povol said:
I read an article the other day and can't find it now, but the tone was that Ducati is very disappointed in Stoners refusal to fill in for Ianoone and even though he fulfilled his obligations, they are upset enough to cut ties. I would like to hear why he was willing to fill in for Pedrosa last year and not for Ianoone this year

Goes back to my earlier contention that Stoner is not a team player as one of the duties of test riders has been to stand-in for an injured regular rider. If it wasn't for bumping up Barbera, they would have had to field one Desmosedici for a few races.

That he was willing to stand in for Pedrosa, but not Iannone is bizarre, and I do think Stoner should explain why he would do it last year.

I do think Ducati has every right to be disappointed given his refusal to stand-in as it was complete BS. If they cut ties though, maybe he get it in his head to either go all in, or get the .... out. GP clearly wasn't that bad since he has no problem taking part in official tests, so he should stop with that .....

Gaz · Nov 6, 2016

povol said:
I read an article the other day and can't find it now, but the tone was that Ducati is very disappointed in Stoners refusal to fill in for Ianoone and even though he fulfilled his obligations, they are upset enough to cut ties. I would like to hear why he was willing to fill in for Pedrosa last year and not for Ianoone this year

He stated that he would like to ride Austin as he had not, plus alluded to Pedrosa being a mate and wanting to do right by Dani

Gaz · Nov 6, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Goes back to my earlier contention that Stoner is not a team player as one of the duties of test riders has been to stand-in for an injured regular rider. If it wasn't for bumping up Barbera, they would have had to field one Desmosedici for a few races.

That he was willing to stand in for Pedrosa, but not Iannone is bizarre, and I do think Stoner should explain why he would do it last year.

I do think Ducati has every right to be disappointed given his refusal to stand-in as it was complete BS. If they cut ties though, maybe he get it in his head to either go all in, or get the .... out. GP clearly wasn't that bad since he has no problem taking part in official tests, so he should stop with that .....

Why should he, is it not his decision?

But then, he did also state why he wanted to do it when the opportunity came up and he split from HRC.

As for the rest, well 50/50 as he abided by his contract and let us also not forget that Pirro is the official Ducati test rider where Stoner was hired to perform 3 tests only. Subtle difference but still a difference (similar actually to Edwards and Nakasuga at Yamaha I suspect

JPSLotus · Nov 6, 2016

Gaz said:
Why should he, is it not his decision?

But then, he did also state why he wanted to do it when the opportunity came up and he split from HRC.

As for the rest, well 50/50 as he abided by his contract and let us also not forget that Pirro is the official Ducati test rider where Stoner was hired to perform 3 tests only. Subtle difference but still a difference (similar actually to Edwards and Nakasuga at Yamaha I suspect

Why shouldn't he?

He made sure to mention about that as being a key reason for leaving a HRC along with the 8 Hours of Suzuka incident. Sure it may not have been on tracks he hadn't ridden, but he refused when he had the chance to ride at Austria.

I don't care what the contract said. It's about helping out.

I mean really Gaz.

When someone asks you for help in real life, do you decline to do so on the grounds that it isn't written into your contract or social compact with the person who is asking? Obviously not everything you agree to do, but within reason. Riding for an injured rider was within reason, seeing as Pirro could not do it due to testing the GP17. You also forget, he was beating his own drum about improving the Ducati by being a rider-engineer. Remember that?

Stoner is selfish. He should go talk to a shrink to try and figure out what goes through his head since I'm under the impression he isn't himself sure.

AJV80 · Nov 6, 2016

Gaz said:
Why should he, is it not his decision?

But then, he did also state why he wanted to do it when the opportunity came up and he split from HRC.

As for the rest, well 50/50 as he abided by his contract and let us also not forget that Pirro is the official Ducati test rider where Stoner was hired to perform 3 tests only. Subtle difference but still a difference (similar actually to Edwards and Nakasuga at Yamaha I suspect

He was clear he didn't want to race and yes thats his decision. He has also stated that he still loves riding the high powered motorcycles which explains why he has operated in a test rider capacity for HRC and for Ducati.

Part of the gig as being a test rider is not only to develop and test the bike but also to assist the team when possible and race if required as Pirro and Aoyama have done on may occasions.

Stoner wants to be around fast bikes and continue to ride them because he enjoys it, but his reluctance to assist and ride when required has pissed off Honda and by the sound of it also pissed of Ducati. As you say its his choice if he wants to race or not and nobody is suggesting to take that choice away from him or to force him to race. IMO only, I think its pretty poor form to be involved with a team but not help them out when its something you are able to do but choose not to.

No different to any job, you do your specific tasks you are employed to do, but if a problem arrises and the company is in spot of trouble if you may be in a position where you are the very best person to be able to assist. Most companies would ask and be extremely grateful for the assistance and acknowledge that it isn't part of your role and more than happy to reward you with benefits and renumeration. It basically show them that you are decent and you care and thats something that goes a long way in business. Stoner is showing he doesn't care and is there to get paid and get something out of it for himself ie riding the bikes but doesn't care to help any further.

its not in his contract but his reluctance to assist the teams in doing anything extra is only going to piss them off and is like a slap in the face, may also make it very hard for him to get the opportunity to keep riding these fast bikes which he enjoys doing so much. Without Honda and Ducati who else is going to have him riding their MotoGP bikes.

Its like being at work and watching a coworker struggle to do one of their tasks and be able to assist but then say, sorry thats not part of my job, your problem ... sorry don't care.

Gaz · Nov 6, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Why shouldn't he?

He made sure to mention about that as being a key reason for leaving a HRC along with the 8 Hours of Suzuka incident. Sure it may not have been on tracks he hadn't ridden, but he refused when he had the chance to ride at Austria.

But he had ridden Austria on a MotoGP bike in the tests

He has never said he wanted to race everywhere, just that he wanted to ride the tracks and he had that opportunity in Austria

JPSLotus said:
I don't care what the contract said. It's about helping out.

I mean really Gaz.

When someone asks you for help in real life, do you decline to do so on the grounds that it isn't written into your contract or social compact with the person who is asking? Obviously not everything you agree to do, but within reason. Riding for an injured rider was within reason, seeing as Pirro could not do it due to testing the GP17. You also forget, he was beating his own drum about improving the Ducati by being a rider-engineer. Remember that?

Stoner is selfish. He should go talk to a shrink to try and figure out what goes through his head since I'm under the impression he isn't himself sure.

Well I believe that a contract is a contract and he met ALL obligations of the contract so quite simply he did the job for which he was paid and when approached did not want extra rides/races.

As for the rest JPS, social life, real life and your contracted job are different matters altogether but yes, I will refuse to help people at times where that person has done something to wrong me, but I will not leave someone stranded beside the road (I live in a relatively isolated area once out of town) and Ducati were not stranded as they had alternatives and used them.

As for beating his own drum, well perhaps you did not see my earlier post but it is a fact that Stoner tested the Ducati as per his contractual obligations, Ciabatti reports that he helped in some areas, and guess what ........... Ducati won races. Now that may well be coincidental but it is a fact that until 2016 Ducat had not won a race since 2010 and yet Stoner gets involved, provides a level of feedback and suddenly they are on the top step again ......... now whether it is coincidence, his feedback or the kick in the ... the team riders got is open to discussion (I personally believe that the riders needed a kick)

Regards selfish, he may well be but that is not necessarily a bad thing as were he not selfish than he would likely not have achieved that which he had (on track and off it) but being selfish is not something for which he needs a shrink as he knows what he is doing, just that what he is doing does not meet the standards of all

AJV80 · Nov 6, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Why shouldn't he?

He made sure to mention about that as being a key reason for leaving a HRC along with the 8 Hours of Suzuka incident. Sure it may not have been on tracks he hadn't ridden, but he refused when he had the chance to ride at Austria.

I don't care what the contract said. It's about helping out.

I mean really Gaz.

When someone asks you for help in real life, do you decline to do so on the grounds that it isn't written into your contract or social compact with the person who is asking? Obviously not everything you agree to do, but within reason. Riding for an injured rider was within reason, seeing as Pirro could not do it due to testing the GP17. You also forget, he was beating his own drum about improving the Ducati by being a rider-engineer. Remember that?

Stoner is selfish. He should go talk to a shrink to try and figure out what goes through his head since I'm under the impression he isn't himself sure.

Absolutely, showing he is only interested in riding the bikes and getting paid but doesn't care to help out when the team are suffering is just rude and comes across as selfish and self centred.

Gaz · Nov 6, 2016

AJV80 said:
Part of the gig as being a test rider is not only to develop and test the bike but also to assist the team when possible and race if required as Pirro and Aoyama have done on may occasions.

No it isn't in all cases and that is one of the issues ............

Aoyama is a test/development rider as is Pirro and both get opportunities when required but it is quite possible that Stoner was never hired in the same capacity as Aoyama/Pirro but rather to test their work as it would be extremely unusual for a factory to contract 3 test rides for a development rider.

AJV80 said:
Stoner wants to be around fast bikes and continue to ride them because he enjoys it, but his reluctance to assist and ride when required has pissed off Honda and by the sound of it also pissed of Ducati. As you say its his choice if he wants to race or not and nobody is suggesting to take that choice away from him or to force him to race. IMO only, I think its pretty poor form to be involved with a team but not help them out when its something you are able to do but choose not to.

But he may well have helped them out by putting them in the right direction.

Personally I have no serious issue with it, he did that which he was contracted and knocked back an opportunity that was offered ..... offered being the critical word as an offer does not need to be accepted.

Now, he may have pissed off HRC and he may have pissed of Ducati (and he certainly has pissed off followers) but in the bigger scheme of things, he did jobs at both and met all of his contracted obligations.

In this place there have been many shitfights about riders not abiding by contracts, and now we have a shitfight because a rider/person abided by the contract but did not do work outside of the contract. We are a never happy bunch aren't we?

AJV80 said:
No different to any job, you do your specific tasks you are employed to do, but if a problem arrises and the company is in spot of trouble if you may happen to be in a position where you are the very best person to be able to assist. Most companies would ask and be extremely grateful for the assistance and acknowledge that it isn't part of your role and more than happy to reward you with benefits and renumeration. It basically show them that you are decent and you care and something that goes a long way in business.

Maybe true, but I know many people who will also say nope, not interested or 'sorry, I have X to do' and so forth.

It is clear that the fill in component was never in the contract and not mentioned in discussions (it was said earlier that wildcards were mentioned and he said no), so really Ducati made their bed and now find it uncomfortable as it has a prickly mattress.

AJV80 said:
its not in his contract but his reluctance to assist the teams in doing anything extra is only going to piss them off and is like a slap in the face, may also make it very hard for him to get the opportunity to keep riding these fast bikes which he enjoys doing so much. Without Honda and Ducati who else is going to have him riding their MotoGP bikes.

I don't see it as a slap in the face to those teams at all actually as they contracted him for a task ... he did that task and that they agree.

They wanted more, he said no thanks ..........

EDIT.
I do see and recognise the points that you and JPS are making, I just don't agree necessarily that it is a big issue.
It is after all his life and he can do with it whatever he chooses and if that means being selfish than so be it as his current priority seems to be his family before anything so good on him given he is said to have sufficient money

AJV80 · Nov 6, 2016

Gaz said:
No it isn't in all cases and that is one of the issues ............

Aoyama is a test/development rider as is Pirro and both get opportunities when required but it is quite possible that Stoner was never hired in the same capacity as Aoyama/Pirro but rather to test their work as it would be extremely unusual for a factory to contract 3 test rides for a development rider.

Forget contracts and details, its about decency and giving a .... about the team. Casey obviously doesn't.

But he may well have helped them out by putting them in the right direction.

Personally I have no serious issue with it, he did that which he was contracted and knocked back an opportunity that was offered ..... offered being the critical word as an offer does not need to be accepted.

Now, he may have pissed off HRC and he may have pissed of Ducati (and he certainly has pissed off followers) but in the bigger scheme of things, he did jobs at both and met all of his contracted obligations.

In this place there have been many shitfights about riders not abiding by contracts, and now we have a shitfight because a rider/person abided by the contract but did not do work outside of the contract. We are a never happy bunch aren't we?

Maybe true, but I know many people who will also say nope, not interested or 'sorry, I have X to do' and so forth.

It is clear that the fill in component was never in the contract and not mentioned in discussions (it was said earlier that wildcards were mentioned and he said no), so really Ducati made their bed and now find it uncomfortable as it has a prickly mattress.

I don't see it as a slap in the face to those teams at all actually as they contracted him for a task ... he did that task and that they agree.

They wanted more, he said no thanks ...........

Sorry Gaz, but i disagree with you. I also don't think he did much for the team at all in 'showing them the way' Pirro (and the riders) have helped developed the bike for them into what it is today over a number of years. They are the ones that deserves that credit for the bikes improvement not Stoner for his 3 test rides. I think any testing Casey has done this year that contributed to bike development would really only have applied in next years bike with the development freezes in place for Ducati.

It is a slap in the face, it shows he doesn't give a .... about the team as much as he does in getting paid and getting what he wants out of the relationship and only doing the minimum. Its an attitude thing, if he was the sort of guy that genuinely cared about the team and its success, I doubt he would stand by idle when they have an injured rider and let the teams results suffer when he is the best person to be able to assist. Contracts and conditions are important, but they are something that can be easily re written along with renumeration and whatever other conditions he wanted so long as their is a desire and intent to help and assist.

Sure he fulfilled his contractual obligations and said 'no thanks' to anything more, no problem with that he is well within his rights nobody is disputing that. I know if was the team owner i would pay him, shake his hand and say thanks for your 'help' all the best. I certainly don't think they would be knocking down his door to get his assistance again any time soon. You may not see it as a slap in the face but I'm sure Ducati do from their perspective and i can completely understand why.

Gaz · Nov 6, 2016

AJV80 said:
Sorry Gaz, but i disagree with you. I also don't think he did much for the team at all in 'showing them the way' Pirro (and the riders) have helped developed the bike for them into what it is today over a number of years. They are the ones that deserves that credit for the bikes improvement not Stoner for his 3 test rides. I think any testing Casey has done this year that contributed to bike development would really only have applied in next years bike with the development freezes in place for Ducati.

That they do deserve the credit (and Pirro more than most) but it remains a fact (or coincidence) that in years 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 they had no race wins but in 2016 they now have two (one for each rider). Further fact is that throughout much of that time Pirro has been the test/development rider and over the last few years Dovi and Ianonne have been team riders and thus had input but until 2016 they had no wins (in Dovi's case, none on Ducati).

So what changed?

Of course that is open to supposition as they had a head start on the electronics with 2015 and the return to Michelin may have helped settle their problems, may be it is the wings or maybe Ianonne and Dovi stepped it up, all supposition.

AJV80 said:
It is a slap in the face, it shows he doesn't give a .... about the team as much as he does in getting paid and getting what he wants out of the relationship and only doing the minimum. Its an attitude thing, if he was the sort of guy that genuinely cared about the team and its success, I doubt he would stand by idle when they have an injured rider and let the teams results suffer when he is the best person to be able to assist. Contracts and conditions are important, but they are something that can be easily re written along with renumeration and whatever other conditions he wanted so long as their is a desire and intent to help and assist.

Sure he fulfilled his contractual obligations and said 'no thanks' to anything more, no problem with that he is well within his rights nobody is disputing that. I know if was the team owner i would pay him, shake his hand and say thanks for your 'help' all the best. I certainly don't think they would be knocking down his door to get his assistance again any time soon. You may not see it as a slap in the face but I'm sure Ducati do from their perspective and i can completely understand why.

Is funny, in some rampant anti-Stoner forums they are actually defending him and saying that Ciabatti over-stepped by publically airing the contractual obligations and yet here, we have the reverse (that has actually been a trend of late).

As for CS being the best to assist let me ask this ............ is he or Pirro race fit?

Just as you and others decry his not stepping in when Pirro was testing, Ducati could have easily shifted Pirro in and asked CS to test or quite simply have postponed the test to get Pirro in place (costs of course there may have been prohibitive), and no that is not deflecting to Pirro as no doubt Ducati would have wanted CS at the island for the publicity it would have bought - on a personal not, were CS to have ridden we would not have gotten to see Mike Jones so I am thankful there.

A point that may have been missed is that we do not know how CS helped as it is alluded to by Ciabatti but no details given (understandably) and such we do not know what his role was intended to be, although in this article Ciabatti gives a small himt

From an earlier Ciabatti interview - http://www.crash.net/motogp/interview/232623/1/exclusive-paolo-ciabatti-ducati-qa.html

Crash.net said:
Speaking of Casey, how have you found working with him in terms of his feedback, his attitude and motivation?

Paolo Ciabatti:
He's just great. Unfortunately I did not have a chance to work with Casey when he was at Ducati in 2007 because I left the company at the beginning of that year. So I can only speak for Casey now. Obviously he came to Ducati with a really positive approach in terms of putting his immense talent and his technical sensitiveness for us to use in order to improve the bike. Even maybe improve road bikes because he's also really interested in giving his point of view on production models. But for what concerns racing, he is just as fast as he was in the past. Maybe he doesn't have the physical strength compared to a rider who is used to ride these bikes every few weeks. But in terms of speed, feedback, bringing the bike to the limit and so on, is kind of unique. So we are lucky to have a rider like him with us, who is very, very fast, but obviously to have the speed and the feedback from a rider who has done so many races, two times world champion, probably even today one of the most talented riders in motorcycle history, is adding that little more that you need to make your bike perfect.

Crash.net:
It brings an added motivation to those that are working with him too?

Paolo Ciabatti:
Yeah, obviously he's very demanding but in positive terms. Also I think now that he doesn't have the pressure of a championship with racing weekends and a lot of activities around it he's more relaxed. He's really enjoying his new job. I think we are very, very happy about what we did so far in terms of development and kind of double-checking a few ideas that we had, but we didn't have time to test thoroughly with our riders because as you know this year we have only five days with factory riders. Some of the things you need probably to be able to bring them to the limit, those couple of tenths of a second that only a rider that is at a super high level can do, and with him we have this luxury of being able to work with such an extremely talented rider. So far it was fine. Next week is going to be two days in Austria with all other riders, except for two Honda riders. So it's going to be also interesting in that respect to see how he feels with the bike, what he can do on the bike. Also one of the reasons why we decided to take Casey back with us was his value as a brand ambassador. Definitely he is still a hero for all the Ducati fans. And the Ducati fans are our base of our business. So this was very important, but on top of this he's very useful and he's doing a great job. He has a perfect attitude.

AJV80 · Nov 6, 2016

Gaz said:
That they do deserve the credit (and Pirro more than most) but it remains a fact (or coincidence) that in years 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 they had no race wins but in 2016 they now have two (one for each rider). Further fact is that throughout much of that time Pirro has been the test/development rider and over the last few years Dovi and Ianonne have been team riders and thus had input but until 2016 they had no wins (in Dovi's case, none on Ducati).

So what changed?

Of course that is open to supposition as they had a head start on the electronics with 2015 and the return to Michelin may have helped settle their problems, may be it is the wings or maybe Ianonne and Dovi stepped it up, all supposition.

Is funny, in some rampant anti-Stoner forums they are actually defending him and saying that Ciabatti over-stepped by publically airing the contractual obligations and yet here, we have the reverse (that has actually been a trend of late).

As for CS being the best to assist let me ask this ............ is he or Pirro race fit?

Just as you and others decry his not stepping in when Pirro was testing, Ducati could have easily shifted Pirro in and asked CS to test or quite simply have postponed the test to get Pirro in place (costs of course there may have been prohibitive), and no that is not deflecting to Pirro as no doubt Ducati would have wanted CS at the island for the publicity it would have bought - on a personal not, were CS to have ridden we would not have gotten to see Mike Jones so I am thankful there.

A point that may have been missed is that we do not know how CS helped as it is alluded to by Ciabatti but no details given (understandably) and such we do not know what his role was intended to be, although in this article Ciabatti gives a small himt

From an earlier Ciabatti interview - MotoGP Interview - MotoGP Q&A - Paolo Ciabatti (Ducati): EXCLUSIVE

If you look at the bikes results over those years it has been improving, not massively but defiantly trending upwards in 2014 and 2015 nothing to do with Stoner. The success of Ducati and the many other teams this season that have had race wins have more to do with the unified electronics. Honda and Yamaha factories losing the advantage they had in this area last year with electronics and the smaller teams getting improved electronics this year has compressed the disparity in performance across the field. Suzuki, Marc VDS and LCR have also won races after all. It isn't just Ducati that won races this year and I doubt Stoner had very much influence on those results, if any at all. The weather this season has also contributed to some of these results but not all of them.

I like to be fair and impartial and call a spade a spade. Stoner has pissed off the two teams he has been involved with post racing career, coincidence? Nobody likes to employ people who clearly don't give a .... about the business, thats just life. I like the bloke but in no way am I going to make up excuses for him.

When you take Casey's really good and Crutchlow's really poor performances out of the equation, the bike seems to be pretty similar and if anything is slightly improved.

Casey GP10 - 3 wins 9 podiums 225 points 4th
Hayden GP10 - 1 podiums 163 points 7th

Rossi GP11 - 1 podiums 139 points 7th
Hayden GP11 - 1 podiums 132 points 8th

Rossi GP12 - 2 podiums 163 points 6th
Hayden GP12 - 0 podiums 122 points 9th

Dovi GP13 - 0 podiums 140 8th
Hayden GP13 - 0 podiums 126 points 9th

Dovi GP14 - 2 podiums 187 points 5th
Crutchlow GP14 - 1 podium 74 points 13th

Iannone GP15 - 3 podium 188 points 5th
Dovi GP15 - 5 podium 162 points 7th

Dovi GP16 - 1 Win 5 podiums 162 points 5th
Iannone GP16 - 1 win 3 podiums 96 points 10th (missed 10 races)

Gaz · Nov 6, 2016

AJV80 said:
If you look at the bikes results over those years it has been improving, not massively but defiantly trending upwards in 2014 and 2015 nothing to do with Stoner. The success of Ducati and the many other teams this season that have had race wins have more to do with the unified electronics. Honda and Yamaha factories losing the advantage they had in this area last year with electronics and the smaller teams getting improved electronics this year has compressed the disparity in performance across the field. Suzuki, Marc VDS and LCR have also won races after. It isn't just Ducati that won races this year and I doubt Stoner had very much influence on those results, if any at all. The weather this season has also contributed to some of these results but not all of them.

2015 was Ducati's best year in the period 2011 - 2015 where they got some good podiums but still missed the top spot (albeit, narrowly in some cases).

I said a while ago on the Vinales thread that 2016 is a serious anomoly at this stage in terms of bike performance and results given the significant changes to the rules and suppliers available (ie. spec electronics, Michelin etc) and so I reserve judgement on success or otherwise until the performances are repeated going forward. In this regard I look at the winners of this season and happily say that Ducati was no real surprise, they have been there or abouts for a while, MarcVDS, LCR and lesser extent Suzuki were surprises and nope, Stoner likely had nought to do with those but again, coincidence is one thing.

AJV80 said:
I like to be fair and impartial and call a spade a spade. Stoner has pissed off the two teams he has been involved with post racing career, coincidence? Nobody likes to employ people who clearly don't give a .... about the business, thats just life. I like the bloke but in no way am I going to make up excuses for him.

Actually three teams if indeed he has pissed off any as insiders in V8's have stated that he fell out of favour with Roland Dane quite quickly - both are prickly personalities in the paddock

I remain unconvinced that he has pissed off either Ducati or HRC at this stage as neither have come out and stated it have they?

HRC have expressed disappointment that CS left for Ducati and so far Ciabatti has expressed disappointment that Stoner did not do work for which he had not been contracted ..... read into disappointment what you will but things are a two way street so whilst he may have pissed them off, I strongly suspect that there may be aspects of reverse that could be equally true (and I do not class Suzuka as worthy as .... happens)

Maybe the issue here is that I have no interest in him riding again, never have and never will as I strongly believe the once retired train of thought and he has always said (something that Ducati acknowledged from day 1) that he did not want to race.

Whilst it is fair to argue that him knocking them back may be disrespectful, is it not also disrespectful to continue to ask when it has been stated from day 1 that he did not want to race?

AJV80 · Nov 6, 2016

Gaz said:
2015 was Ducati's best year in the period 2011 - 2015 where they got some good podiums but still missed the top spot (albeit, narrowly in some cases).

I said a while ago on the Vinales thread that 2016 is a serious anomoly at this stage in terms of bike performance and results given the significant changes to the rules and suppliers available (ie. spec electronics, Michelin etc) and so I reserve judgement on success or otherwise until the performances are repeated going forward. In this regard I look at the winners of this season and happily say that Ducati was no real surprise, they have been there or abouts for a while, MarcVDS, LCR and lesser extent Suzuki were surprises and nope, Stoner likely had nought to do with those but again, coincidence is one thing.

Actually three teams if indeed he has pissed off any as insiders in V8's have stated that he fell out of favour with Roland Dane quite quickly - both are prickly personalities in the paddock

I remain unconvinced that he has pissed off either Ducati or HRC at this stage as neither have come out and stated it have they?

HRC have expressed disappointment that CS left for Ducati and so far Ciabatti has expressed disappointment that Stoner did not do work for which he had not been contracted ..... read into disappointment what you will but things are a two way street so whilst he may have pissed them off, I strongly suspect that there may be aspects of reverse that could be equally true (and I do not class Suzuka as worthy as .... happens)

Maybe the issue here is that I have no interest in him riding again, never have and never will as I strongly believe the once retired train of thought and he has always said (something that Ducati acknowledged from day 1) that he did not want to race.

Whilst it is fair to argue that him knocking them back may be disrespectful, is it not also disrespectful to continue to ask when it has been stated from day 1 that he did not want to race?

No team would have any benefit from publically ousting Stoner (apart from maybe V8 super boring cars only because they have less to lose), his success in racing is associated with their brand and brings them revenue from bike sales from his millions of fans. Upsetting this will only effect them in a negative way and has no positives so it will never happen but doesn't mean they aren't annoyed with him and his lack of willingness to assist.

With Honda they had tried to coax him on occasions to ride with their team which he declined. Honda are a Japanese team and the biggest team in terms of budget and most riders would be honoured for the opportunity. Stoner declining them was a huge insult to them and a sign of disrespect and they would have seen this as a huge slap in the face. Stoner offering to ride for the injured Dani was declined by Honda as a way of payback for the way he insulted them even though it was like cutting off their nose to spite their face in terms of results. Stoner could sense this and thats why he left Honda soon after and ended up moving back with Ducati.

Ducati being Italian may be a little different, but i doubt they are any more impressed with him than Honda where. Race fit or not, they would have been fully aware that Stoner was capable of better results than Pirro hence why they asked. There is zero benefit for Ducati to publicly say negative things about Stoner so that wont happen just like it didn't at Honda. I think Ducati will do the bare minimum they need to with Stoner to retain his name for brand association so long as it has any influence on bike sales and revenue.

Gaz · Nov 6, 2016

AJV80 said:
No team would have any benefit from publically ousting Stoner (apart from maybe V8 super boring cars only because they have less to lose), his success in racing is associated with their brand and brings them revenue from bike sales from his millions of fans. Upsetting this will only effect them in a negative way and has no positives so it will never happen but doesn't mean they aren't annoyed with him and his lack of willingness to assist.

Maybe true but it has been done many times including the Marlboro man at Ducati publically questioning Stoner's illness and in some ways there would be little loss to Honda but definite impacts at Ducate based on comments made as to the regard in which CS is considered by many Ducatisti.

As I said earlier, actually a few people in different forums are questioning Ciabatti's motives for the particular comments from which this debate has manifested itself, as in some areas this interview is seen as a public outing (although to me it reads as a translated article so no real idea on the intent).

AJV80 said:
With Honda they had tried to coax him on occasions to ride with their team which he declined. Honda are a Japanese team and the biggest team in terms of budget and most riders would be honoured for the opportunity. Stoner declining them was a huge insult to them and a sign of disrespect and they would have seen this as a huge slap in the face. Stoner offering to ride for the injured Dani was declined by Honda as a way of payback for the way he insulted them even though it was like cutting off their nose to spite their face in terms of results. Stoner could sense this and thats why he left Honda soon after and ended up moving back with Ducati.

You say disrespect but they still gave him the Suzuka ride so much of what you have posted could easily be questioned with regards Honda's motives and/or actions as the Suzuka ride occurred after the Pedrosa injury

It is also true that Nakamoto in all his interviews is effusive about Stoner and has expressed disappointment that Stoner decided to leave Honda.

As for the reasons he left we may never know but reports have indicated that HRC wanted more test time and he did not through to team Marquez feeling that the results of his tests were not beneficial and even included possibilities of concern from team Marquez regarding the test times etc.

AJV80 said:
Ducati being Italian may be a little different, but i doubt they are any more impressed with him than Honda where. Race fit or not, they would have been fully aware that Stoner was capable of better results than Pirro hence why they asked. There is zero benefit for Ducati to publicly say negative things about Stoner so that wont happen just like it didn't at Honda. I think Ducati will do the bare minimum they need to with Stoner to retain his name for brand association so long as it has any influence on bike sales and revenue.

And I suspect that will suit both parties.

But interestingly, if there is zero benefit in saying negative why take the negative spin on Ciabatti's words ?

If the answer is 'read between the lines' then they have gone public so they may see a benefit (that being to shame him to do more, to out him for not doing enough or to piss him off so he goes FU and walks).

Sure they will not say 'he does not give 100% when all testing times show otherwise and yes it is true that they offered him an opportunity to race so they could raise that, but again ultimately he met all of his obligations and did not seek further, thus he declined.

It is little different to my being a 4 day per week contracted employee (have been in years past) and the boss asking me to work extra days from time to time. I have the right to say nope, sorry and it does not mean that I do not give a stuff about my work but rather than I value my time away from work which is how I see this.

AJV80 · Nov 6, 2016

Gaz said:
Maybe true but it has been done many times including the Marlboro man at Ducati publically questioning Stoner's illness and in some ways there would be little loss to Honda but definite impacts at Ducate based on comments made as to the regard in which CS is considered by many Ducatisti.

As I said earlier, actually a few people in different forums are questioning Ciabatti's motives for the particular comments from which this debate has manifested itself, as in some areas this interview is seen as a public outing (although to me it reads as a translated article so no real idea on the intent).

You say disrespect but they still gave him the Suzuka ride so much of what you have posted could easily be questioned with regards Honda's motives and/or actions as the Suzuka ride occurred after the Pedrosa injury

It is also true that Nakamoto in all his interviews is effusive about Stoner and has expressed disappointment that Stoner decided to leave Honda.

As for the reasons he left we may never know but reports have indicated that HRC wanted more test time and he did not through to team Marquez feeling that the results of his tests were not beneficial and even included possibilities of concern from team Marquez regarding the test times etc.

And I suspect that will suit both parties.

But interestingly, if there is zero benefit in saying negative why take the negative spin on Ciabatti's words ?

If the answer is 'read between the lines' then they have gone public so they may see a benefit (that being to shame him to do more, to out him for not doing enough or to piss him off so he goes FU and walks).

Sure they will not say 'he does not give 100% when all testing times show otherwise and yes it is true that they offered him an opportunity to race so they could raise that, but again ultimately he met all of his obligations and did not seek further, thus he declined.

It is little different to my being a 4 day per week contracted employee (have been in years past) and the boss asking me to work extra days from time to time. I have the right to say nope, sorry and it does not mean that I do not give a stuff about my work but rather than I value my time away from work which is how I see this.

Although Suzuka maybe very important in Japan, it pales in comparison to HRC's concern and ambitions of winning in MotoGP. It's like Bathurst and Formula 1.

You honestly think Honda declined Stoner Dani's ride for no particular reason other than "Casey deserves to be fighting for the podium" rubbish they churned out to the press what a load of complete ........ that was and when they offered him rides earlier and had no issues with it. Do you really think Honda thought Aoyama would get better results than Stoner (when he finished in 11th)? What was so wrong with the bike that Stoner wouldnt be able to fight for the podium on, when Marquez finished in 1st? Some times you have to read between the lines, especially when it comes from manufacturers who have much to lose and nothing to gain in saying anything negative about Stoner. I personally think it was part to do with upsetting Marquez and part to do with him letting them down in the past. I'm pretty sure Stoner could read through all the warm fuzzy BS they spouted to the press about him being a VIP and deserving to fight for a podium, he left for a reason after that.

You are right, Its a little different to a boss asking you to work a few days a week more. This is a big race team with big budgets and loads to lose, Stoner would know more than anyone how important it is for them to win they invest millions of dollars into it every year and also know that if he didn't ride for them they would get crappy results which would cost them. This isn't someone refusing to do some overtime for their boss because they don't want it to become a habit and invade their personal time .... this is BIG BIG BIG BIG dollars, they only have 18 races a year to perform in to achieve their results and succeed, he is a test rider and part of the team and happy sit by and watch them fail. Piss poor form IMO.

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