Casey Stoner Rumors, Still sick

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where have I dissed his riding - fark, no matter how stupid you may think me, I sure as crap aint that stupid.
Haven't seen you dis it and didn't say that, just haven't heard you praise it much, until now, kinda
We are getting somewhere!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To put it simply (now - sit down here) people new to the game should watch, listen and learn how 'teamRossi' works in regards to the media as it will only benefit them in the long run (and not criticism of CS/DP there as they choose not to).
Hopefully they might take notice sooner or later.......


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gotta be honest, this line kinda lost me a bit and after a few reads still does.

The point that for me is most relevant is that he is whinging, whining and complaining - we have seen articles and at times video where he is taking potshots of sorts.

The secondary to that point is that he is fully allowed and within his rights as are all these riders allowed to be critical, but the fact it is VR being so public is unusual and open for comment is it not?

What I do always find interesting is the defense often taken that when VR is criticised for a comment, people will say that he is entitled to make such comments because of his record - I say fair enough. But, why then aren't others entitled to be critical of similar/same aspects as personally, record should mean little dependent on the topic being discussed (ie. history of racing VR wins over JL, Yamaha current performance both have equal right to discuss).

My point was based around MD's similar rants in the late 90's, some here are calling it whinging and whining and we are all entitled to our opinions, but you can't say that just because times have changed that we can't compare these very similar circumstances a decade apart in order to highlight where VR might be coming from with these comments. MD said much the same thing and he was also in a very similar position to VR's current one, so it doesn't really come as a surprise at all to me that VR would react this way, he's in the title fight of his life with an amazing talent- 10 years his junior, on same bike which VR and his team/Yamaha has spent the last 3-5 years perfecting into the world beater it currently is, interestingly enough the common thread between the decades is one JB.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Surely you do a good enough job yourself of arguing the detractors but hey, when I see the same level of personal attacks launched against VR, the unfounded allegations that remain unrproven at this point given they have no credible sources, then I will create a satirical response.
So you haven't? check out Jumkie a bit more, check out supershinyashitface a little more,Pinky, there are plenty!!! I have witnessed just as many VR cracks as CS cracks here, which is why I asked for your satirical response, but you seem against defending the GOAT as you do CS-why is that?

In my satirical response I came up with many more than your CS one, so unless you are looking at another Forum, how are you missing the fact that VR doesn't suffer massive amounts of unfounded allegations that remain unproven at this point as they have no credible sources here on powerslide? Door swings both ways......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I find interesting is that you seem so hung up on people making .... of other fans in a satirical sense with no personal attack or abuse, will you now take the same level of umbrage when similar is done against others.

No not at all, I only gave you back what you gave us originally with your satirical CS defense of sand in ...... etc. Only with my satirical VR post (which some didn't get!!) you argued every point like you hadn't seen this kind of VR abuse or that my satirical points really did have some element of truth in them despite the fact you have no hard evidence to back this up with....so what I understand from this is, its ok to defend CS with satirical posts based on the .... that is said about him but you are not allowed to do the same with VR and the .... that is said about him? A little bit bias this, is it not.......

I just asked for your VR defense as well, but as you didn't give it (your reasons are your own) I thought I might do it anyway for entertainment purposes,


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Woohoo, labelled again and yep, you sure have shown your colours proudly.

Again I will say it, even though it will not be believed but nope I am not a Stoner fan in the same manner as you are with VR etc but I do and will put my thoughts into the realm when racing is being discussed whether it be the popular line or not. If by doing this people wish to label me as a fan of rider X than I guess so be it but I also expect that I will remain watching the sport well beyond many making the accusations.

And to any local fans in the area, you are more than welcome to come to my house, inspect it for any paraphernalia as you will only find very little dating back some years - I actually have nothing from the last 10 years or so - a fan of the sport, yes, a fan of a rider - not in MGP.


Gaz

Cool banannas.......from your posts though I am getting something very different, a CS fan you are, but subtlety keeps you from the wolves

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 14 2009, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its been my experience that those owned in a debate think digging will magically get them out of a hole. Lets not change that insane method now, by all means, continue digging Talpa.



Its been my experience that those who only read and listen to what they want to hear, can't really ever offer anything constructive......thank you for re-affirming

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope certainly wasn't, just referencing many here, and my statement was I have never read this in one of your post- not that it might not have been there. Now that we are on to it-Who has had superior OR Similar equipment to Rossi over the years- Here is my list, remember Superior or Similar!!!;

Casey Stoner 2007-2008
Danny Pedrosa 2006-2007
Nicky Hayden 2003-2004-2005-2006-2007
Sete Gibernau 2002-2003-2004-2005
Alex Crivelle 2000-2001
Kenny Roberts JNR 2000-2001
Max Biaggi 2004-2005
Teti Harada 1998-99
Loris Caparossi 1998-1999-2006-2007
Colin Edwards 2005-2006-2007

I've probably missed some, but its already quite a list- So VR has had to beat a couple of good rider/bike combos in his time.....

Ok, well first things first.

Rossi entered MGP in the year 2000 and given that I was not really following the 250cc era at that time I will not judge any opposition he had in the 250cc category.

It is hard to compare the different makes and you have said this yourself so very difficult to say conclusively that Hayden's bike was superior or similar to Rossi in 2006 (as an example) but as I use the championships as a guide you can safely say that 2006/2007 there were other bikes that were similar to or superior to Rossi's Yamaha (I have stated that heaps of times).

If we then also look and say that superior equipment does not matter as it is the rider that makes the difference (and argument espoused by many regarding Rossi's success on switching to Yamaha) then we could simply say that is it a machine that is superior or a rider (and yes, I know you will like that line).

So, lets look and you do need to add Lorenzo or are you saying that his machine is not similar or superior, you should also consider Melandri in 2008 as he was on the same bike as Stoner (and yes, I do believe that he was up until he 'lost it') .

You may also want to admit or at least go back and you will see that I have never said VR has not had to beat many good to great rider/bike (or as I use package) combinations, some he has beat easily and others have proved a bit more difficult.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I asked for names, races and effect on the title outcome. The only name you have is VR and 'others', if we are going to point the finger we need to know all of the directions. So at the moment without accurate data, it can be said that any rider with Michelin in those years could have had an overnight special made up for them, including many listed above

You want names, I would like to say look them up as they have been said, and discussed many times but you seem so hung up on it so here goes a few where it has been acknowledged had received 'overnight' specials.

Doohan
Rainey
Lawson
Gardner

Yep, all old school riders and it has been said many times that they were recipients. If you want me to name a few more modern that I believe probably received teh overnight specials - no problems.

Biaggi - when factory #1 at Honda
Gibernau - when factory Honda
Edwards - less so but still believe he probably got some given his association with Michelin
Okada
Barros
Pedrosa - gut feel says he got them from his arrival
Hayden - not sure, would say probably until the arrival of Pedrosa

Now, I don't list the Bridgestone guys as I am not so sure whether they did overnight specials or did personal tyres all the time so leaving them out deliberately.

Now to the question as to whether any rider could have gotten the Michelins and the answer is no - as said by Michelin and others at times. The 'specials' were made to individual rider specifications and requirements and it was/is said were generally made available to Michelin favoured riders (so, team #1, development/test riders).

Now time to ask you.

Do you believe that 'saturday night specials' existed and were available to Rossi as well as others or do you deny they ever existed?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I never said I had proof that he hasn't had influence, only questioned the ridiculous back-door/room conspiracy theories. Stats help me with this opinion, especially in recent years.....how could someone with so much 'behind the scenes influence over the sport and its governing body have lost 2 world titles in a row?? And until its proven otherwise with cold hard facts, its all a bunch of hot air-the likes of which emanates from a Dutch oven

Stats help you form the opinion that he has little influence - and look, I don't necessarily disagree as in my original post I did place in brackets the comment 'actually 'had' may be a better use there as I am not so sure that he is as strong as before with Dorna'.

But I do firmly believe (again an opinion) that DORNA know their meal tickets and whilst VR is/was that main ticket they will ensure (or at least intend to ensure) that decisions will not adversely effect him, much the same as employes often look after their 'star' employees. Now, you may read that as you wish but for mine DORNA would not now or ever make a decision that would conciously force their meal ticket to evaluate their place in the sport - that to me is influence.

As an example, in 2007 the Michelin (it is safe to say) were the inferior type brand most of the time and Rossi was amonsgt the vocal Michelin shod riders (Pedrosa, Edwards others) who criticised the manufacturer and basically said that without Bridgestones they could not compete. Rossi stated outright that he wanted Bridgestone for 2008 to which Bridgestone said (similar to) we cannot manufacture for another team (this was actually quoted from memory by J4rn0 in an earlier post). DORNA posture and prance (as they do) and Bridgestone cave to the pressure and end up able to supply one additional rider - which of course coincedentally was Rossi (not Pedrosa who was as vocal).

Now, one can surmise whether it was VR pressure or DORNA pressure or whether VR pressured DORNA (all covered in previous threads when this topic has arisen) and nobody genuinely knows the answer, just suspicion and opinion.

Unfortunately for DORNA not all changes have worked (ie. the 800cc formula) and not all changes have had the desired results/impacts from a supporter base viewpoint.

Now, this does not mean that if VR wanted the 990's back DORNA would cave, hell that would be way to bloody obvious were it to occur but it does mean that at times VR's influence is purely in his opinion or point of view. Quite simply, if VR was happy with the current formula I have no doubt that there would be far less posturing from DORNA about changes to the formula (and what is more, far less from other riders as well).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, with so much 'so-called' influence, how has he not had the 800's banned and returned to his 990cc preference. Surely if he had enough influence to gain unfair technical advantages to win multiple world titles then this would be a walk in the park-right?

I would reference you to the earlier post where I stated that I had heard little negativity from VR prior to the change and it was only after the change and experiences with the effects that he became vocal about the new formula.

You do try sometimes, but to change things (either with or without influence) takes time under usual circumstances and a capacity change woudl be massive given the direction the factories have had to take with the 800's, so it would be simply impractical to expect a 'walk in the park' type of influence.

But, let me ask you then.

Why, if he has no influence must we change the category?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do remember that member. So really VR just has it on noticeable numbers, and those who blame him for bringing these people to the sport need to realize that their own heroes have the same or similar kinds following them too, just in smaller numbers, which was my point.

As has been said ad nauseum by many, there are fans of various riders who really bring little to nothing to sensible, respectable forum discussions.



Now to a general comment.

You seem to want to keep re-hashing as really everything I have typed today, and everything you have typed has been said within this forum by us two and others many times, so really, do we need to keep rehashing?

Also, and nope not directed at you - how did we get here from a CS is sick thread?







Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok, well first things first.

Rossi entered MGP in the year 2000 and given that I was not really following the 250cc era at that time I will not judge any opposition he had in the 250cc category.

It is hard to compare the different makes and you have said this yourself so very difficult to say conclusively that Hayden's bike was superior or similar to Rossi in 2006 (as an example) but as I use the championships as a guide you can safely say that 2006/2007 there were other bikes that were similar to or superior to Rossi's Yamaha (I have stated that heaps of times).

If we then also look and say that superior equipment does not matter as it is the rider that makes the difference (and argument espoused by many regarding Rossi's success on switching to Yamaha) then we could simply say that is it a machine that is superior or a rider (and yes, I know you will like that line).

your getting a bit ranty here Gaz......Originally my point was to discredit the theory pushed by some here that VR has only won his titles due to his superior equipment....and you have backed up my argument here....cheers

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, lets look and you do need to add Lorenzo or are you saying that his machine is not similar or superior, you should also consider Melandri in 2008 as he was on the same bike as Stoner (and yes, I do believe that he was up until he 'lost it') .

You may also want to admit or at least go back and you will see that I have never said VR has not had to beat many good to great rider/bike (or as I use package) combinations, some he has beat easily and others have proved a bit more difficult.
Sorry I forgot gorgeous George and Marco, but as I said I knew I would leave some out. Again I never implied that you said it, but many have- hence the origin of the statement.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You want names, I would like to say look them up as they have been said, and discussed many times but you seem so hung up on it so here goes a few where it has been acknowledged had received 'overnight' specials.

Doohan
Rainey
Lawson
Gardner

Yep, all old school riders and it has been said many times that they were recipients. If you want me to name a few more modern that I believe probably received teh overnight specials - no problems.

Biaggi - when factory #1 at Honda
Gibernau - when factory Honda
Edwards - less so but still believe he probably got some given his association with Michelin
Okada
Barros
Pedrosa - gut feel says he got them from his arrival
Hayden - not sure, would say probably until the arrival of Pedrosa

Now, I don't list the Bridgestone guys as I am not so sure whether they did overnight specials or did personal tyres all the time so leaving them out deliberately.

Now to the question as to whether any rider could have gotten the Michelins and the answer is no - as said by Michelin and others at times. The 'specials' were made to individual rider specifications and requirements and it was/is said were generally made available to Michelin favoured riders (so, team #1, development/test riders).

Now time to ask you.

Do you believe that 'saturday night specials' existed and were available to Rossi as well as others or do you deny they ever existed?

Never said i didn't believe they existed at all, my argument is that not just VR alone, the majority of his close competition over the years, all had access to these specials, as you point out....cheers again, so not only VR but the majority of his competition had the same opportunities, so the overnight specials weren't really that special after all, one could almost say easily obtainable, others here sprout that only VR had specials made for him which gave him an unfair advantage, but above you have pointed out with presented facts (which I knew but was waiting for) that it is impossible to conclude that VR was the only rider given such specials.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stats help you form the opinion that he has little influence - and look, I don't necessarily disagree as in my original post I did place in brackets the comment 'actually 'had' may be a better use there as I am not so sure that he is as strong as before with Dorna'.

But I do firmly believe (again an opinion) that DORNA know their meal tickets and whilst VR is/was that main ticket they will ensure (or at least intend to ensure) that decisions will not adversely effect him, much the same as employes often look after their 'star' employees. Now, you may read that as you wish but for mine DORNA would not now or ever make a decision that would conciously force their meal ticket to evaluate their place in the sport - that to me is influence.
So why did you refute my satirical point in the first place, I was simply highlighting the absurdity of the Back room deals theories, which i know weren't yours, but in your own way you have given them legitimacy, and this is very dangerous without evidence to support.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As an example, in 2007 the Michelin (it is safe to say) were the inferior type brand most of the time and Rossi was amonsgt the vocal Michelin shod riders (Pedrosa, Edwards others) who criticised the manufacturer and basically said that without Bridgestones they could not compete. Rossi stated outright that he wanted Bridgestone for 2008 to which Bridgestone said (similar to) we cannot manufacture for another team (this was actually quoted from memory by J4rn0 in an earlier post). DORNA posture and prance (as they do) and Bridgestone cave to the pressure and end up able to supply one additional rider - which of course coincedentally was Rossi (not Pedrosa who was as vocal).

Now, one can surmise whether it was VR pressure or DORNA pressure or whether VR pressured DORNA (all covered in previous threads when this topic has arisen) and nobody genuinely knows the answer, just suspicion and opinion

It always goes back to the tyre change issue, Pedders mid season switch was far more controversial, and I believe that VR actually took a big risk (at the time) by switching, especially with weather conditions ultimately determining the different tyre brands performance week in week out in 2007, and Michelin had so many titles it could be said he was a bit mad to switch, especially considering Yamaha would inevitably improved the M1's Top end and off the turn grunt to compete with the Duck.

So in hindsight, with now a control Bridgestone tyre (which has incidentally really helped the closeness of racing....??!!) VR and Pedders were very correct in their assumptions in 2007, VRs case is exceptional and as proven in 2008 he went to not only be competitive but win the title on the BS's.....the gamble paid-off, I believe VR was the only rider who truly knew he needed the Stones to win, the others were just not that sure and if they were they would have pushed harder and more than likely got the rubber too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Unfortunately for DORNA not all changes have worked (ie. the 800cc formula) and not all changes have had the desired results/impacts from a supporter base viewpoint.

Now, this does not mean that if VR wanted the 990's back DORNA would cave, hell that would be way to bloody obvious were it to occur but it does mean that at times VR's influence is purely in his opinion or point of view. Quite simply, if VR was happy with the current formula I have no doubt that there would be far less posturing from DORNA about changes to the formula (and what is more, far less from other riders as well).

So why would other riders care to back up their competition if there wasn't real merit in VR's view on the format and its need for change, I doubt that JL would back him up at present, I also doubt that CS would. VR use to beat them on the 990's too, whats the difference? Dorna's posturing is occurring because the 800cc format sucks and they know it, it didn't take VR to tell them this, 800's have only provided 1 or 2 miracle races each year, the rest are boring.....we don't need VR to tell us that.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would reference you to the earlier post where I stated that I had heard little negativity from VR prior to the change and it was only after the change and experiences with the effects that he became vocal about the new formula.

You do try sometimes, but to change things (either with or without influence) takes time under usual circumstances and a capacity change woudl be massive given the direction the factories have had to take with the 800's, so it would be simply impractical to expect a 'walk in the park' type of influence.

But, let me ask you then.

Why, if he has no influence must we change the category?

Because the races are boring, the way in which the 800's produce power only allow for a specific type of style which needs to be maintained throughout the race, limiting line options and essentially limiting rider options once the lights go out. I'm sure there are more detailed reasons than mine but essentially it really hasn't worked. Its obvious, the grid is smaller, the sat teams have no hope.......etc
This is not only VR's view, but the view of many, including the ones who have to cough up the cash to keep them rolling.
You didn't really answer me either, if VR has so much influence why has the format not changed? If he is their golden goose, then why continue to make him unhappy, and I know you feel he might not have this influence as much as in the past, but really, unfairly giving advantages to one rider to win multiple world titles, if true, would have to rate up there with a format change......



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now to a general comment.

You seem to want to keep re-hashing as really everything I have typed today, and everything you have typed have been said within this forum but us two and others many times, so really, do we need to keep rehashing.

Also, and nope not directed at you - how did we get here from a CS is sick thread?


Gaz

Well mate, you really started it with the whole dissection of my satirical post, and it seems to be my lot in life here to continually defend VR, and I don't really know how we got here but I do know I really hoping the Island brings out the other good race for the year!!!

Another intervew with Stoner leading up to PI
http://au.sports.yahoo.com/motorsport/news...dangerous-track

the ailment "destroyed" him mentally as he fought to keep up but became weaker and weaker.

"It was something I never wanted to do, I never wanted to take the break but it was just becoming ridiculous," Stoner said.

"No-one really understood quite how serious it was and it was getting to the point where we had a crash at Donington Park (in England) and I had no idea why. It was just from weakness, fatigue and we couldn't keep going the way we were.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>your getting a bit ranty here Gaz......Originally my point was to discredit the theory pushed by some here that VR has only won his titles due to his superior equipment....and you have backed up my argument here....cheers

I partially support your point and always have, but you never asked me so why should I answer?

You should however have noticed that I did not contribute anything outside of what I say now and have in the past which is that superior machinery does and has existed. That being that some people do not have access to the machinery that others have and as such canot compete equally - simple really.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Never said i didn't believe they existed at all, my argument is that not just VR alone, the majority of his close competition over the years, all had access to these specials, as you point out....cheers again, so not only VR but the majority of his competition had the same opportunities, so the overnight specials weren't really that special after all, one could almost say easily obtainable, others here sprout that only VR had specials made for him which gave him an unfair advantage, but above you have pointed out with presented facts (which I knew but was waiting for) that it is impossible to conclude that VR was the only rider given such specials.

Now is where it gets controversial - or can.

We simply do not know how many of VR's opponents had access to overnight specials so you should not and cannot allude to it being the majority.

As for them not being special, well that is an interpretation as to me, if I can get something specifically made to my very requirements and tat is not available to anyone else then yes, taht is special. Others of course likely got tyres to their requirements and of course one would expect that the true 'make-up' of each 'special order' was not divulged to any other rider - so again, yes special.

So yes, they were special tyres made to his requirements and his alone which can or does give an unfair advantage because nobody else had access to those tyres.

But, is it unfair that they could not provide their exact requirements and produce a similar product - no.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So why did you refute my satirical point in the first place, I was simply highlighting the absurdity of the Back room deals theories, which i know weren't yours, but in your own way you have given them legitimacy, and this is very dangerous without evidence to support.....

What satirical point - you mean the one you wrote in seriousness and then backed away from

Who needs evidence as it does not stop people from presuming anything and you will note that I preface most things with IMO or my opionion and will not end things with 'for a fact' as there is no solid evidence in the public domain. All is supposition based upon actions taken - so it is just that supposition.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It always goes back to the tyre change issue, Pedders mid season switch was far more controversial, and I believe that VR actually took a big risk (at the time) by switching, especially with weather conditions ultimately determining the different tyre brands performance week in week out in 2007, and Michelin had so many titles it could be said he was a bit mad to switch, especially considering Yamaha would inevitably improved the M1's Top end and off the turn grunt to compete with the Duck.

So in hindsight, with now a control Bridgestone tyre (which has incidentally really helped the closeness of racing....??!!) VR and Pedders were very correct in their assumptions in 2007, VRs case is exceptional and as proven in 2008 he went to not only be competitive but win the title on the BS's.....the gamble paid-off, I believe VR was the only rider who truly knew he needed the Stones to win, the others were just not that sure and if they were they would have pushed harder and more than likely got the rubber too.

Not worried to much about what you say but - are you genuine that it has provided closer racing (and that is a serious question)?

You see, I am not so sure it is the tyre so much as the Yamaha and it's riders as we have not really had close racing involving non-Yamaha manufacturers (remove the wet weather races).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So why would other riders care to back up their competition if there wasn't real merit in VR's view on the format and its need for change, I doubt that JL would back him up at present, I also doubt that CS would. VR use to beat them on the 990's too, whats the difference? Dorna's posturing is occurring because the 800cc format sucks and they know it, it didn't take VR to tell them this, 800's have only provided 1 or 2 miracle races each year, the rest are boring.....we don't need VR to tell us that.

Well a conspiracist would say that they back him up because he gets his way (thought you would like that).

But for me, it is more about leadership and (sit down now, another compliment on the way) one this VR is good at is being leader and as we are always told by yourself and others of similar ilk, his experience means that he must be listened to when he speaks. So, the 'juniors' back him up (note that in the other thread not all seem to) because they know that he will be listened to and because they are not the type to lead by statement (CS does actually and does speak up but his delivery is lacking).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Because the races are boring, the way in which the 800's produce power only allow for a specific type of style which needs to be maintained throughout the race, limiting line options and essentially limiting rider options once the lights go out. I'm sure there are more detailed reasons than mine but essentially it really hasn't worked. Its obvious, the grid is smaller, the sat teams have no hope.......etc
This is not only VR's view, but the view of many, including the ones who have to cough up the cash to keep them rolling.

Matter of opinion really - not exciting, but for me not boring.

V8's with the exception of Bathurst are boring.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You didn't really answer me either, if VR has so much influence why has the format not changed? If he is their golden goose, then why continue to make him unhappy, and I know you feel he might not have this influence as much as in the past, but really, unfairly giving advantages to one rider to win multiple world titles, if true, would have to rate up there with a format change......

And you have not really answered any of my questions either.

But, I would suggest that you read what I have written again, abd maybe a second time as the answer is there and simply it is that his influence is waning as DORNA are now looking at other meal tickets, plus a direct about face by DORNA would be to big a loss of face for the organisation. There, said it again.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well mate, you really started it with the whole dissection of my satirical post, and it seems to be my lot in life here to continually defend VR, and I don't really know how we got here but I do know I really hoping the Island brings out the other good race for the year!!!

Wrong.

I didn't mention VR until responding to your post so have no idea who bought VR into the conversation and sorry to say but satire may not be your strongest point as for me (and it appears others) that post did not read as satire.

As for your constant defence of VR, that is not a problem I expect for most but you (like I actually) do go well overboard at times with our responses and all we end up doing is rehashing and repeating which in fairness, is more boring than question time.

As for the island, I reckon we need two races a year here, one in March and one about now due to the bloody weather extremes but I am concerned a bit about the racing as to how VR/JL will play it.

JL needs to beat VR and beat him well whereas VR just needs to keep JL in front by one spot, but is he capable given the competitive instincts?

And of course there is CS/DP who no doubt will want to get in the way and have their own battle.

Just hope the wet and wind keeps away long enough




EDIT: An aside.

You lament the 'boredom' of the 800cc era and say that it is the reason why the formula must change, but you also state that the racing is closer with the advent of the control tyre. So the question is how close does racing need to be for it not to be boring or is the 800cc formula evolving by the rule changes to be not-so-boring?





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: An aside.

You lament the 'boredom' of the 800cc era and say that it is the reason why the formula must change, but you also state that the racing is closer with the advent of the control tyre. So the question is how close does racing need to be for it not to be boring or is the 800cc formula evolving by the rule changes to be not-so-boring?





Gaz

There are 4 guys that are on a completely different level. When they get away and work out the pecking order, which usually happens around lap 3-5, nothing ever really happens for the rest of the race. And this is 90% of the races. One and ten we get some drama towards the end. But it seems that with the 800's setup is so important that riders can't ride around the issues any more. The bikes are so consistent, along with riders, that races become a parade.

Racing needs to flow in both directions like WorldSBK. MOTOGP seems to always go one way. Meaning, we need more change throughout the race. It's monotony that's killing the races and killing the series. It's either that or focus more on midpack battles, which the producers have slowly conceded to doing throughout this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 14 2009, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another intervew with Stoner leading up to PI

Good find. I thought this was a interesting quote:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"I was maybe becoming dangerous on the bike, I was so exhausted and it's just not the best way to be out there racing."

Stoner was putting himself and others in danger while riding with fatigue. It takes a man with integrity and some humility to admit that and remove himself from the situation. In a field of big egos (and as some riders have shown, a disregard for other’s safety) its at least refreshing for somebody to take the very difficult position of removing oneself from competition; unfortunately for him it has proven to be highly criticized. I’ve read may here advocating for “safety” but this has not been extended (perhaps because of a shallow perspective on the subject) to removing a potentially hazardous rider. We have see time and time again how a loss of momentary focus or a unrealistic ambition for a impossible gain in race position can result in crashes (Kallio, DeAngelis, Takahashi, etc.). Casey can simply do nothing right in the eyes of some, but can you imagine the outcry had in a moment of fatigue (physical or mental) he takes out one of the front runners (which is where he usually runs) like say Lorenzo or Rossi? (God help us). I can imagine the headline: Stoner crashes Rossi, admits fatigue—is he too selfish to remove himself from competition while ill?



BTW, I'm thoroughly enjoying Talpas's exchanges with Gaz. If you want to avoid reading the weak side of the argument, I will summarize Talpa's takes:

Talpa: I love Rossi because he's the Lord and I'm hurt when others don't recognize he is awesome.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 14 2009, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another intervew with Stoner leading up to PI
http://au.sports.yahoo.com/motorsport/news...dangerous-track

the ailment "destroyed" him mentally as he fought to keep up but became weaker and weaker.

"It was something I never wanted to do, I never wanted to take the break but it was just becoming ridiculous," Stoner said.

"No-one really understood quite how serious it was and it was getting to the point where we had a crash at Donington Park (in England) and I had no idea why. It was just from weakness, fatigue and we couldn't keep going the way we were.
Reading the entire article gives one the distinct impression that the whole "mystery illness" debacle and ensuing mud-slinging would have been preempted if Casey had issued communications as frank and informative at the start rather than (hopefully) the end of this story.

Tal & Gaz, good bout so far... I've got Gaz ahead on my card... both combatants a little punchy, though...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 14 2009, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another intervew with Stoner leading up to PI
http://au.sports.yahoo.com/motorsport/news...dangerous-track

the ailment "destroyed" him mentally as he fought to keep up but became weaker and weaker.

"It was something I never wanted to do, I never wanted to take the break but it was just becoming ridiculous," Stoner said.

"No-one really understood quite how serious it was and it was getting to the point where we had a crash at Donington Park (in England) and I had no idea why. It was just from weakness, fatigue and we couldn't keep going the way we were.

This could all be a bunch of BS to cover up his 'mystery illness'. Stoner needs to hire Scooby-Doo and his crew to solve this 'mystery'. Although I have a feeling Stoner already knows what it is.

I'm not falling for it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Oct 15 2009, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This could all be a bunch of BS to cover up his 'mystery illness'. Stoner needs to hire Scooby-Doo and his crew to solve this 'mystery'. Although I have a feeling Stoner already knows what it is.

I'm not falling for it.

You know SS56 - I think you are right.
I think Stoner has made these BS comments just to cover up that he wanted a holiday to go fishing.
Good thing you didn't fall for it.


I still don't get why you cop so much .... on this forum dude.

Woohooo, finally we can get back to topic and discuss the illness as opposed to what has been occurring with the off topic who's ..... is bigger discussion (and it is mine by the way - )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 14 2009, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner was putting himself and others in danger while riding with fatigue. It takes a man with integrity and some humility to admit that and remove himself from the situation. In a field of big egos (and as some riders have shown, a disregard for other’s safety) its at least refreshing for somebody to take the very difficult position of removing oneself from competition; unfortunately for him it has proven to be highly criticized. I’ve read may here advocating for “safety” but this has not been extended (perhaps because of a shallow perspective on the subject) to removing a potentially hazardous rider. We have see time and time again how a loss of momentary focus or a unrealistic ambition for a impossible gain in race position can result in crashes (Kallio, DeAngelis, Takahashi, etc.). Casey can simply do nothing right in the eyes of some, but can you imagine the outcry had in a moment of fatigue (physical or mental) he takes out one of the front runners (which is where he usually runs) like say Lorenzo or Rossi? (God help us). I can imagine the headline: Stoner crashes Rossi, admits fatigue—is he too selfish to remove himself from competition while ill?

Jumkie, this is an interesting comment and perspective and if memory serves me right there were some members here (and I recall who) that made the very same type of observation, that being if he is fatigued he is therefore a danger and needs not compete. All up, given what he is saying (whilst not divulging any illness for those that want it) he and his team made the correct decision to rest as those that ride/race would know, most accidents occur when fatigued and at these events even a relatively minor accident could have catastrophic results.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 14 2009, 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tal & Gaz, good bout so far... I've got Gaz ahead on my card... both combatants a little punchy, though...

Thank MickD, and yes a little punchy here as one can only throw the same punches so many times before one gets tired, and with me not being as fit as years ago it is starting to hurt a little but hey, it is fun for all I am sure.

But for me, time to move on as I need to re-energize for the same discussions post-Phillip Island.








Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I partially support your point and always have, but you never asked me so why should I answer?

You should however have noticed that I did not contribute anything outside of what I say now and have in the past which is that superior machinery does and has existed. That being that some people do not have access to the machinery that others have and as such canot compete equally - simple really.

Okee then, but the argument, put forward by some, is that VR has always had superior equipment to his competition, I am saying that his 'MAIN" competition has always had similar or better equipment to him-do we agree on this?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now is where it gets controversial - or can.

We simply do not know how many of VR's opponents had access to overnight specials so you should not and cannot allude to it being the majority.

As for them not being special, well that is an interpretation as to me, if I can get something specifically made to my very requirements and tat is not available to anyone else then yes, taht is special. Others of course likely got tyres to their requirements and of course one would expect that the true 'make-up' of each 'special order' was not divulged to any other rider - so again, yes special.

So yes, they were special tyres made to his requirements and his alone which can or does give an unfair advantage because nobody else had access to those tyres.

But, is it unfair that they could not provide their exact requirements and produce a similar product - no.

I believe they (Michelin) could and would have if asked to do so, it is silly to think that Riders like Max Biaggi, Alex Crivelle, Nicky Hayden and Sete Gibernau would not have done the same, and they did have their specials too. So if VR's main rivals had access to a special tyre tailored to their requirements as well, then for me the playing field is still level, hence the term 'Prototype racing', if you know what you need to win then you become a champion....

VR just ordered better than the others, although both Max and Sete certainly got very close.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What satirical point - you mean the one you wrote in seriousness and then backed away from

Who needs evidence as it does not stop people from presuming anything and you will note that I preface most things with IMO or my opionion and will not end things with 'for a fact' as there is no solid evidence in the public domain. All is supposition based upon actions taken - so it is just that supposition.
I never backed away from it, I had to explain to you, after you (and others) had dissected it as fact, that I did it for ..... and giggles, and with my original satire I never expected to be at this point still defending VR, and I'm not finished yet, I've still to get back and dissect your CS satire yet!!! The door will swing back......

This second paragraph is a little bit demeaning to your argument, you are saying you don't need evidence to support (at times) wild allegations against VR, a supposition or opinion on the matter is of course had by all, but for me if you are going to go there, try to cut down the tall poppy that is VR, and be taken seriously, then you need to bring the proof, otherwise the argument is majorly flawed. Only tabloids make money out of 'Heresay' and 'Conjecture'.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not worried to much about what you say but - are you genuine that it has provided closer racing (and that is a serious question)?

You see, I am not so sure it is the tyre so much as the Yamaha and it's riders as we have not really had close racing involving non-Yamaha manufacturers (remove the wet weather races).

Maybe I need to improve my satire, most aren't getting it. But really, I would need to be partially insane to be sprouting how the 800's are so boring, only then to use rhetoric like 'the control tyre is providing closer racing', so for you mate, just because I like you, the tyre statement was completely tongue in cheek......

So its the Yamaha this year then, I would have to at least partially disagree, because on a number of occasions the Fiat boys have been split by a Honda or two and a Duck. Suffice to say the 'Control Tyre' has improved racing as much as the 800's succeeded in slowing down MotoGP bikes-.... all and NONE

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well a conspiracist would say that they back him up because he gets his way (thought you would like that).

But for me, it is more about leadership and (sit down now, another compliment on the way) one this VR is good at is being leader and as we are always told by yourself and others of similar ilk, his experience means that he must be listened to when he speaks. So, the 'juniors' back him up (note that in the other thread not all seem to) because they know that he will be listened to and because they are not the type to lead by statement (CS does actually and does speak up but his delivery is lacking).

I would not like him to get his way actually, then we would miss out on more potentially amazing performances, the last one I remember was Assen 07, VR was in 10th place in the early laps and despite having a 6 sec deficit to CS (with 9 riders in between!!) he got up and won the race.....this is what I want to see more of, whether it be from VR or almost anyone else......
Judging by his record I'm sure that VR doesn't want to get his way and have the potential to clear out race after race like CS prefers, JB was just quoted as saying 'VR enjoys racing, and MD enjoyed winning' I dare say the latter could also be said for CS......look out here it comes!!!!

Thank for the 'second' compliment, we are really getting somewhere! Aren't we?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Matter of opinion really - not exciting, but for me not boring.

V8's with the exception of Bathurst are boring.

when a fantastic WSBK race is on at the same time, I know which one I'll be watching.....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And you have not really answered any of my questions either.

But, I would suggest that you read what I have written again, abd maybe a second time as the answer is there and simply it is that his influence is waning as DORNA are now looking at other meal tickets, plus a direct about face by DORNA would be to big a loss of face for the organisation. There, said it again.

A loss of face? haven't they already lost most of that anyway? And this is nothing but another opinion/supposition without concrete evidence to back it up, there said it again.....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wrong.
I didn't mention VR until responding to your post so have no idea who bought VR into the conversation and sorry to say but satire may not be your strongest point as for me (and it appears others) that post did not read as satire.
As for your constant defence of VR, that is not a problem I expect for most but you (like I actually) do go well overboard at times with our responses and all we end up doing is rehashing and repeating which in fairness, is more boring than question time.

As no one else would, I brought VR's detractors comments into it, as you did with CS's in your original post. My post didn't read as satire to those who didn't want it to, or those stupid enough not to read it properly in the first place!
To me, other VR supporters, and those who don't believe in theories that lack merit i.e Conspiracy Theories, it reads as Satire......In the eye of the beholder

What you call boring re-hashing, is only us trying to establish the facts for a relevant argument, I would suspect you of all here would respect this, and it is still better than 'CS has sand in his ......, and VR is a Gay ....star' type stuff, is it not.....and nothing can be as boring-or demoralizing!! as question time

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: An aside.

You lament the 'boredom' of the 800cc era and say that it is the reason why the formula must change, but you also state that the racing is closer with the advent of the control tyre. So the question is how close does racing need to be for it not to be boring or is the 800cc formula evolving by the rule changes to be not-so-boring?

Again, as above, my reference to the tyres improving the quality of racing was completely tongue in cheek, I'm surprised you missed this mate, bit tired?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 15 2009, 02:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner was putting himself and others in danger while riding with fatigue. It takes a man with integrity and some humility to admit that and remove himself from the situation. In a field of big egos (and as some riders have shown, a disregard for other’s safety) its at least refreshing for somebody to take the very difficult position of removing oneself from competition; unfortunately for him it has proven to be highly criticized. I’ve read may here advocating for “safety” but this has not been extended (perhaps because of a shallow perspective on the subject) to removing a potentially hazardous rider. We have see time and time again how a loss of momentary focus or a unrealistic ambition for a impossible gain in race position can result in crashes (Kallio, DeAngelis, Takahashi, etc.). Casey can simply do nothing right in the eyes of some, but can you imagine the outcry had in a moment of fatigue (physical or mental) he takes out one of the front runners (which is where he usually runs) like say Lorenzo or Rossi? (God help us). I can imagine the headline: Stoner crashes Rossi, admits fatigue—is he too selfish to remove himself from competition while ill?

Anytime a rider competes with injury, he is putting himself and others at risk, MD with a bleeding still tracted leg in 92, VR with a broken wrist in 06, Loris with several broken bits in 06, Pedders Knee this year, JL with 2 broken ankles last year......the list is endless

It is a good PR comeback for CS though, I'm genuinely impressed with this one, maybe they hired VR's publicist for a one-off!!

And Jumkie, just imagine the reaction, you and others would have had if VR did the same thing as CS did,

'Valentino Rossi sacrifices his world championship chase and takes 3-race break due to mystery illness which worlds top doctors cannot diagnose, comes back better than ever in Portugal with no apparent signs of illness'

Oh .... this sounds like a conspiracy theory, I thought you would have posted this by now.....
VR also can do no right in the eyes of some-that door keeps on swinging!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 15 2009, 05:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Reading the entire article gives one the distinct impression that the whole "mystery illness" debacle and ensuing mud-slinging would have been preempted if Casey had issued communications as frank and informative at the start rather than (hopefully) the end of this story.

Tal & Gaz, good bout so far... I've got Gaz ahead on my card... both combatants a little punchy, though...

Thanks mate, at least I've scored with you. BTW great new Avatar, very cool

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 14 2009, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Reading the entire article gives one the distinct impression that the whole "mystery illness" debacle and ensuing mud-slinging would have been preempted if Casey had issued communications as frank and informative at the start rather than (hopefully) the end of this story.
It may have placated the open-minded such as you, but such a state of mind is not necessarily common where he is concerned ; telling the truth as he sees it has not got him very far in recent years. I think he probably wanted to feel he was recovering, to have some sort of explanation for his symptoms and to demonstrate he was competitive in a race or races now that he is recovering before going into detail.

Hey, there's still a day or so to go isn't there, so why not.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Okee then, but the argument, put forward by some, is that VR has always had superior equipment to his competition, I am saying that his 'MAIN" competition has always had similar or better equipment to him-do we agree on this?

Just as the argument put forward by others is that the superior speed of the Ducati won the 2007 title, one can argue and opinions are just that are they not?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I believe they (Michelin) could and would have if asked to do so, it is silly to think that Riders like Max Biaggi, Alex Crivelle, Nicky Hayden and Sete Gibernau would not have done the same, and they did have their specials too. So if VR's main rivals had access to a special tyre tailored to their requirements as well, then for me the playing field is still level, hence the term 'Prototype racing', if you know what you need to win then you become a champion....

Sorry, do you mean that Michelin would have passed informationed regarding Rossi's tyres to others or that Michelin would have done Overnight specials - just clarifying?

As for prototype racing - for me it is just that and should not just apply to the mechanical componentry but tyres as well - simple for mine.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>VR just ordered better than the others, although both Max and Sete certainly got very close.

Agreed - and at times I suspect to close for comfort but their fault was again the old consistency.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I never backed away from it, I had to explain to you, after you (and others) had dissected it as fact, that I did it for ..... and giggles, and with my original satire I never expected to be at this point still defending VR, and I'm not finished yet, I've still to get back and dissect your CS satire yet!!! The door will swing back......

Ok, here goes.

On first reading using your history I failed to see or read any satire, sarcasm certainly but not satire. Since you have pointed it out I have re-read a few times and still fail to see satire but can still see the sarcasm so yes, maybe it is your writing or my reading - either way you say you meant it one way and it was read another - no harm done as it has kept each of us amused for a while.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This second paragraph is a little bit demeaning to your argument, you are saying you don't need evidence to support (at times) wild allegations against VR, a supposition or opinion on the matter is of course had by all, but for me if you are going to go there, try to cut down the tall poppy that is VR, and be taken seriously, then you need to bring the proof, otherwise the argument is majorly flawed. Only tabloids make money out of 'Heresay' and 'Conjecture'.....

Not really as I do not proclaim that what I say is factual and when I do I try to post links to the articles/information. I also avoid trying to use terms like 'for a fact' or 'that is a fact' when discussing aspects or points that are simply opinion (and have had MDub make fun of that aspect because of my use of IMO - all goo though).

Now, any judgements that I make are no different to your judgement that CS has 'dogged' it somewhat (as an example).

You see, as you accuse me and others of lacking evidence there is just as little evidence to assert that CS has not suffered a genuine illness or injury that required the absence to heal - yet it does not stop you making supposition or unfounded comments.

Certainly you have your point of view (and opinion) based upon your reading of events and hell, you are fully entitled to it and it is a point you do try to argue, just as those that feel VR may have had superior equipment, or may have received preferential equipment etc. There is absolutely no difference between the two extremes and the point is that we do not have access to the actual transcripts etc, thus it is opinion based upon observations, which makes for interesting discussion.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe I need to improve my satire, most aren't getting it. But really, I would need to be partially insane to be sprouting how the 800's are so boring, only then to use rhetoric like 'the control tyre is providing closer racing', so for you mate, just because I like you, the tyre statement was completely tongue in cheek......

Read above points.

As for the control tyre, yeah I wasn't so sure given where you posted it so will cop that one as an oversight if it makes you feel better.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So its the Yamaha this year then, I would have to at least partially disagree, because on a number of occasions the Fiat boys have been split by a Honda or two and a Duck. Suffice to say the 'Control Tyre' has improved racing as much as the 800's succeeded in slowing down MotoGP bikes-.... all and NONE

Where do I say that?

What I say or at least attempt to make is that this year is Yamaha dominant and they are primarily providing the closer up front racing - is that not true (the racing question)?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would not like him to get his way actually, then we would miss out on more potentially amazing performances, the last one I remember was Assen 07, VR was in 10th place in the early laps and despite having a 6 sec deficit to CS (with 9 riders in between!!) he got up and won the race.....this is what I want to see more of, whether it be from VR or almost anyone else......
Judging by his record I'm sure that VR doesn't want to get his way and have the potential to clear out race after race like CS prefers, JB was just quoted as saying 'VR enjoys racing, and MD enjoyed winning' I dare say the latter could also be said for CS......look out here it comes!!!!

Something many have said, no surprises nor is it a detrimental trait and personally, I suspect that VR would love to win by 5 seconds plus at the moment rather than fight as he has had to of late.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thank for the 'second' compliment, we are really getting somewhere! Aren't we?

Not really getting anywhere as you seem to read whatever you choose into argument/discussion and make your own suppositions.

Again, please go back through my posts and find where I have been critical of VR to the degree that you seem to insinuate for it does not exist - and yes that is deliberate and carefully done on my part.

But here we go and again - he is a leader, were he not he would not be where he has gotten as were he a follower he would never have been able to develop a bike to his requirements as otherwise he would have accepted what he was given.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>when a fantastic WSBK race is on at the same time, I know which one I'll be watching.....

And you call yourself a Rossi fan ............ really


Me, I watch MGP and then replays of WSBK because I prefer MGP, but then I also suspect that you are far from alone and will readily admit that at the moment the spectacle of WSBK is a bit better but is that the numbers on the grid, or the battle between the new boy and old man?









Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A loss of face? haven't they already lost most of that anyway? And this is nothing but another opinion/supposition without concrete evidence to back it up, there said it again.....

Exactly - an opinion, should I not have them?

And correct me, but is it not your opinion that they have already lost most of that anyway?

Or are you asking me my opinion again?

So where is your evidence that they have already lost most of that anyway?

See, it applies both ways.

You can call for evidence to back up the opinions of myself and others, and I can call for you to produce evidence but I tend to think that neither can do so.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As no one else would, I brought VR's detractors comments into it, as you did with CS's in your original post. My post didn't read as satire to those who didn't want it to, or those stupid enough not to read it properly in the first place!
To me, other VR supporters, and those who don't believe in theories that lack merit i.e Conspiracy Theories, it reads as Satire......In the eye of the beholder

Refer above - I still see sarcasm but not satire but hey, that is the way I read it.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Oct 14 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What you call boring re-hashing, is only us trying to establish the facts for a relevant argument, I would suspect you of all here would respect this, and it is still better than 'CS has sand in his ......, and VR is a Gay ....star' type stuff, is it not.....and nothing can be as boring-or demoralizing!! as question time

No, what I call boring/rehashing is the same argument/discussion each and every post and we just keep going around in circles time and again.

I fully respect that needs and rights of people to opinions (and the rights for those to be discussed) and I full enjoy the factual posts with links to articles from which discussion can flow as these are of interest.

But you have made your point/argument in numerous discussions now with myself, Jumkie, Austin and MichaelM and now back with me, to name a few, each time the same arguments apply which from you is basically that VR did not have superior equipment and deserves credit for his achievements - fullstop. When people question aspects (as is their right) you take umbrage and start again with your evidence requirements (and that is fair enough) but you also do not produce evidence that he has not had superior equipment - just your opinion and supposition.

See, it is a vicious circle you want evidence of others who want evidence of you but no conclusive evidence exists thus people surmise and form opinions based upon their reading/interpretation of the known facts (ie. numbers). Personally (and opinion again here) I strongly suspect that many within the game do not know the truth themselves as they are pawns and basically get on with their bit of the equation, as should we.





Gaz

Note: Crap, found out there is a limit to the number of quoted blocks one can use - doh

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just as the argument put forward by others is that the superior speed of the Ducati won the 2007 title, one can argue and opinions are just that are they not?

Mate I'm just warming up here!! They are just opinions, and many have suggested that VR has always had superior equipment, you have back me up in defending this. But as I keep saying, factual evidence is required to back it up and make it more than just an opinion-more so in the case of VR because of his outstanding record. This is why I asked you for the evidence to support your argument.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry, do you mean that Michelin would have passed informationed regarding Rossi's tyres to others or that Michelin would have done Overnight specials - just clarifying?

As for prototype racing - for me it is just that and should not just apply to the mechanical componentry but tyres as well - simple for mine.
Its just my opinion, but I'm sure many of VR's competitors running Michies would not have put up with he alone getting specials.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You see, as you accuse me and others of lacking evidence there is just as little evidence to assert that CS has not suffered a genuine illness or injury that required the absence to heal - yet it does not stop you making supposition or unfounded comments.
As there is no evidence to suggest that he did have something, the cycle is vicious isn't it, Most riders suffer a crash and have an x-ray and plaster to help their case, Casey has been to the world's best physicians only to come up with zero......so just as you make your suppositions, I am entitled to mine, why not- we are all working on 'Guilty until proven innocent' here .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Certainly you have your point of view (and opinion) based upon your reading of events and hell, you are fully entitled to it and it is a point you do try to argue, just as those that feel VR may have had superior equipment, or may have received preferential equipment etc. There is absolutely no difference between the two extremes and the point is that we do not have access to the actual transcripts etc, thus it is opinion based upon observations, which makes for interesting discussion.

So until it is proven that he did, the popular argument (or in legal terms) should be 'Innocent until proven guilty' right. When you start to throw rocks...............


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I say or at least attempt to make is that this year is Yamaha dominant and they are primarily providing the closer up front racing - is that not true (the racing question)?

Looking at the season as a whole, no it is not true, we have had 2.5 close races, Catalunya and Germany, Brno sort of until the spill. Not really a good ratio, 3 in 14.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Something many have said, no surprises nor is it a detrimental trait and personally, I suspect that VR would love to win by 5 seconds plus at the moment rather than fight as he has had to of late.
Maybe at the moment, and you dodged this one pretty well, certainly not across his career as was my point.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not really getting anywhere as you seem to read whatever you choose into argument/discussion and make your own suppositions.

Again, please go back through my posts and find where I have been critical of VR to the degree that you seem to insinuate for it does not exist - and yes that is deliberate and carefully done on my part.

But here we go and again - he is a leader, were he not he would not be where he has gotten as were he a follower he would never have been able to develop a bike to his requirements as otherwise he would have accepted what he was given.

I haven't been directly quoting you as a VR abuser, if you go back through mine as well, others certainly. But you did chose to pull apart my Satirical post, which makes me question why, to try to make me look silly or because you believe most of the rubbish I put in that post?

I thought that you being the level-headed one you would happily give us a Similar defensive sarcastic post for VR....
And you wouldn't oblige me, as you stated, you felt as though VR hasn't coped the flack requiring it!! If you haven't seen the flack put on VR here then I suggest it is you who needs to really go back and check out previous posts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And you call yourself a Rossi fan ............ really


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 15 2009, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Me, I watch MGP and then replays of WSBK because I prefer MGP, but then I also suspect that you are far from alone and will readily admit that at the moment the spectacle of WSBK is a bit better but is that the numbers on the grid, or the battle between the new boy and old man?

Gaz

Yes indeed, relevant machines, more of them, Two races plus SS.....its not that I want Motogp to diminish, I just hate to see being run into the ground due to technical regulations.

BTW-I still love you

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>V, you knew I would have tojust for the fun of it and to wind up a few others but you are wrong here as Rossi has not won like no other ... ever.

He is second in total race wins and championships to Ago so that is an incorrect statement (but hey, I do know what you mean but couldn't help myself and want to fire others up a bit)

Come on Gaz… 77 to 68 MotoGP/500, you knew I meant Top Class!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I suppose it is perspective and while I do fully agree with you here, I wonder why the likes of CEii and even DP etc have such high media profiles given their records to date (genuinely wonder that actually).

Come on Gaz, you knew what I meant there too… Even Lorenzo has a few ‘wins’ (6 MotoGP) and is a great PR… But still, with few wins this PR stuff being discussed would not last too many years, less so over a decade. So I guess yes, we agree completely as you say.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No rider has ever always had the 'best of' but all do deserve an opportunity to have access to teh 'best of' (oh, and that is just an opinion there ) as that then shows the true ability of the riders as the excuses are removed (and no VR criticism).

I don’t mind riders having access to the best machinery/equipment, but some ‘Anti-Yellow’ claim ‘Always’ has Rossi had it. We know it’s not true, if you tell me Rossi has access actually, or several Seasons, I have no argument. But ‘Always’ is pushing too much.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 13 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know you are joking a bit with that line but, for me, to say that people can only be compared when they have equalled Rossi is wrong as Rossi has (throughout his career) been compared to many who had better records at the time of comparison.

To me, there are riders who are as quick as VR over one lap, but one lap is not a race and no points are awarded so it is race finishes that count and it is the consistency that VR has shown that many seem to overlook as to be where he has been for so long is an achievement in itself.

Gaz