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Casey Stoner is Dr Who

J4rn0 said:
Have you considered that Lorenzo never rode in a different way? He kept his corner-speed smooth style from 125 through 250 and carried it over to MotoGP, where he found a new generation of bikes that could be ridden as he was used to (however a bit more dangerously). So how can you assume that he rides like that out of sheer adaptation, and that he could adapt to any bike in the same way because he's a genius? That's just your, let us say, enthusiastic appreciation, isn't it.
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You obviously have missed the point. Firstly you suggest that Lorenzo's riding style hasn't changed since he was in 125, which is obviously untrue if you'd been watching Lorenzo's career. Secondly, you continue to act as though it's simply good fortune that makes Lorenzo's riding in motogp so good because they bikes happen to work for him. I think that is a huge discredit and a massive simplification of situation. Was Rossi simply lucky that his riding style happened to work when he got to 500/990? No he worked on it, learnt how to get the best of the bike he had, and won. I never said that i think Lorenzo could adapt to any bike and be at a similar level to his current form, but i'm suggesting that in a different era the lessons he learnt and the experience he gained before the premier class would have been different and so would his riding style as a result.
 
J4rn0 said:
Don't be obnoxious. You cannot take words out of context like that...
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I was answering the opposite statement by Tom, i.e. that Lorenzo is using the ideal style for 800cc bikes, just as he would have easily used the ideal style for the 500s, 990s etc. My point being, how do you know Lorenzo could have adapted to the other bikes, as he never rode them (quite obvious, but it seems not obvious enough for you).

It seems to me some of you guys just pretend not to understand, and like to use silly debating techniques
huh.gif
The fact that the 800cc "electronic" bikes have to be ridden in 250 style for maximum results is common wisdom, not my idea btw.

If you continue like this, you hardly need to wait for somebody else to say stupid enough things
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yeah but seriously where are you going with this argument? that that is somekind of advantage?



what i'm trying to say is that it really doesn't matter which bikes he raced and which the current formula is,because we believe that world champions are good enough to kick ... on any bike. the same would be said about rossi and stoner too, i don't see the problem?
 
mylexicon said:
It's not a game. I want the riders to have the fuel and displacement necessary to explore new lines with both the front wheel and the rear wheel. I don't know what kind of sickness is required to force the riders onto a single line b/c "science" has already determined the fastest way around a circuit. I don't want to know what kind of sickness that is. Lorenzo has grown up in a drastically simplified era of MotoGP. Here is you bike, Jorge. Set it up, and ride.



I don't know whether or not Lorenzo is a legend, but I do know that he has grown up in the new lame era of MotoGP without having previously demonstrated that he has requisite skill to ride any kind of motorcycle including the fire-breathing kind that like late-apexes. According to you, late-apexing is clumsy and unsophisticated. If that's true then you should have no problem adding more fuel and more displacement b/c clumsy, unsophisticated bikes and riders don't win races. Adding fuel and displacement would help Lorenzo, so I have to ask, why are you hating on Lorenzo like that by blocking displacement and fuel?
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Sorry i thought you were just kidding around because your statements were even more ridiculous that usual. It's pretty laughable that you think this era of motogp is simplified when you spend so much of your time making observations (and complaints) about how the sport is getting increasingly complicated. I wouldn't say Lorenzo is a legend yet, but to suggest that Lorenzo is less of a rider because he's won in an era you don't particularly like is just sad. He's beaten Rossi who has mastered all era before him, he made the last 990 champion look downright average. I understand that it is more visually exciting to see bikes getting lose and scrappy all over the track, i agree it'd be nice to see a bit more of what goes on. But even if the bikes had enough power for a rider to make an error and square off a corner, he'd still be slower than a rider who didn't make a mistake. There will always be a fastest way of going about riding around a track and the person who can do that without makiing mistakes will win. It'd be nice if the riders making mistakes were kept closer in contention compared to the perfectionist nature of the 800's but we all know the cream rises to the top so i doubt the order would change much.
 
cliché guevara said:
yeah but seriously where are you going with this argument? that that is somekind of advantage?



what i'm trying to say is that it really doesn't matter which bikes he raced and which the current formula is,because we believe that world champions are good enough to kick ... on any bike. the same would be said about rossi and stoner too, i don't see the problem?
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You worry too much about implications. Take things at face value. What is apparent is that Lorenzo is a really fast corner speed rider. We do not know, and cannot know, how good he would be riding different bikes that would require a different style. We never saw him riding any different. Assuming he would 'kick ...' on any bike is bopperism, since there cannot be any proof. It's just fanboy speak.
huh.gif




The good news for you and all of Lorenzo's fans is that it seems this style is going to remain the most efficient even beyond 2012, since bikes are not supposed to change much and electronic aids are going to stay. It is the other riders who will have to adapt and challenge Lorenzo on his natural ground. Even then, we'll see who kicks whose ......
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Tom said:
Sorry i thought you were just kidding around because your statements were even more ridiculous that usual. It's pretty laughable that you think this era of motogp is simplified when you spend so much of your time making observations (and complaints) about how the sport is getting increasingly complicated. I wouldn't say Lorenzo is a legend yet, but to suggest that Lorenzo is less of a rider because he's won in an era you don't particularly like is just sad. He's beaten Rossi who has mastered all era before him, he made the last 990 champion look downright average. I understand that it is more visually exciting to see bikes getting lose and scrappy all over the track, i agree it'd be nice to see a bit more of what goes on. But even if the bikes had enough power for a rider to make an error and square off a corner, he'd still be slower than a rider who didn't make a mistake. There will always be a fastest way of going about riding around a track and the person who can do that without makiing mistakes will win. It'd be nice if the riders making mistakes were kept closer in contention compared to the perfectionist nature of the 800's but we all know the cream rises to the top so i doubt the order would change much.
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I don't complain that the sport is increasingly complicated. I complain that a human/mechanical sport has been turned into a software engineering contest. The rider's job is increasingly complicated b/c the rider spends less time developing his own skill and more time looking at charts and graphs for setup. The sport itself is becoming less complicated. No more engineering conundrums about how to mate a 24L 990cc engine with a chassis and tires. Everyone knows the game now. Better fuel efficiency. More rigid chassis all the time. Less braking and more cornerspeed b/c there isn't enough fuel for anything else.



You can perform fellatio on Lorenzo all you want. I said he's not fit to sit at the table b/c he hasn't made the rite of passage, and unfortunately for him, his ascension has come at a time when Spanish jingoism has been fueling MotoGP. It's an opinion based upon a very radical formula change and the rise of electronic throttle control which many riders have spoken out against. I didn't write the 21L rule, and it's not my job to pretend that this is the same sport that existed 50 years or even 5 years ago. Honda are playing Group C b/c they miss the 1980s.



None of this has anything to do with me. I'm simply interpreting facts. You don't have to agree, but you at least have to see what's going on. Yes, Lorenzo did great; he's probably a great rider, but this isn't the sport we've been watching/studying for the last 50 years. Lorenzo has his own table b/c he never rode a 990cc in competition. The sooner we get rid of these stupid fuel rules and bore-cylinder rules, the sooner we will regain GP racing, and the sooner Lorenzo can sit at the real table with the other champs.
 
mylexicon said:
I don't complain that the sport is increasingly complicated. I complain that a human/mechanical sport has been turned into a software engineering contest. The rider's job is increasingly complicated b/c the rider spends less time developing his own skill and more time looking at charts and graphs for setup. The sport itself is becoming less complicated. No more engineering conundrums about how to mate a 24L 990cc engine with a chassis and tires. Everyone knows the game now. Better fuel efficiency. More rigid chassis all the time. Less braking and more cornerspeed b/c there isn't enough fuel for anything else.



You can perform fellatio on Lorenzo all you want. I said he's not fit to sit at the table b/c he hasn't made the rite of passage, and unfortunately for him, his ascension has come at a time when Spanish jingoism has been fueling MotoGP. It's an opinion based upon a very radical formula change and the rise of electronic throttle control which many riders have spoken out against. I didn't write the 21L rule, and it's not my job to pretend that this is the same sport that existed 50 years or even 5 years ago. Honda are playing Group C b/c they miss the 1980s.



None of this has anything to do with me. I'm simply interpreting facts. You don't have to agree, but you at least have to see what's going on. Yes, Lorenzo did great; he's probably a great rider, but this isn't the sport we've been watching/studying for the last 50 years. Lorenzo has his own table b/c he never rode a 990cc in competition. The sooner we get rid of these stupid fuel rules and bore-cylinder rules, the sooner we will regain GP racing, and the sooner Lorenzo can sit at the real table with the other champs.
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except for the fellatio part a well argued opinion that i respect very much.

but then again ,does that mean you don't credit stoner?or wouldn't credit spies if he won next year?



don't get me wrong ,i dont want to go in the " if you don't like it ,don't watch it!" direction because clearly we have to criticize .... if we want the sport to get better.but you almost make it sound like the championships worthless at the moment
 
No championchips are worthless, some of these guys ride all their carreers only to be a race winner & not a tiltle holder - Capirossi for example.
 
Just occurred to me how appropos is the comparison of Stoner to Dr. Who - because

every time he wins the boppers Daleks all come out of stage left screaming, Exterminate! Exterminate!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16NEccsNUDM&feature=related[/media]
 
cliché guevara said:
except for the fellatio part a well argued opinion that i respect very much.

but then again ,does that mean you don't credit stoner?or wouldn't credit spies if he won next year?



don't get me wrong ,i dont want to go in the " if you don't like it ,don't watch it!" direction because clearly we have to criticize .... if we want the sport to get better.but you almost make it sound like the championships worthless at the moment
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Stoner rode a 990. He lit the rear wheel up all over the circuit, and he crashed on the front (frequently) if he pushed into the corner too hard like he was on a 250. Imo, Stoner lived the 990 experience and he made the rite of passage before winning in 2007. He almost won at Turkey in 2006 and he was the fastest man on the circuit at Qatar until he overtaxed his tires.



Spies is a tough case b/c everyone knows that he can ride a big bike. He's the best superbike rider (another obvious yet somehow controversial remark) in the world and he was the reigning WSBK champ up until Biaggi capture the title this year. Imo, Spies has to prove he can ride cornerspeed b/c he never did anything on a 600. If he wins, I think he will demonstrate that he has the full repertoire.



I want for Lorenzo to make the jump to a liter bike without a fuel-limited formula or adaptive mu-learning fuel mapping. I can assure you, I'm not part of the people holding him back and forcing him to continue his 250 ways on a bike with an electronically controlled throttle. I'm dying for the kid to get on a 24L 990 with few electronic rider aids.



The only reason to continue riding GP right now is for the money and the thrill of riding a prototype bike that no one has ever ridden. The glory and the superlative rider accolades are becoming a thing of the past b/c the rider skill set is becoming so restricted. In the old days the riders controlled everything. In the new days, the riders control everything, but the throttle. People like to pretend that the riders still control the throttle but if all throttle control is supplied by the rider, why do they equip the bikes with TC, wheelie control, and adaptive fuel mapping? crickets



It's a shame b/c the riders are probably significantly better now that the sport has become so big and the talent pool has become so deep.
 
Lex, I think you are being a bit harsh on Lorenzo. He didn't write the 800 rules, he just won in them. "Rite of passage"? I've often wished Nicky would have been born earlier to have competed in the two-stroke era. I'm certain he would have become a legend, but who has control over their birth? Lorenzo won while his main and most significant competition was on same based equipment and is the "standard" of the sport. I have much more admiration for his title because of this fact. And of course, because it points towards confirmation of my view that this a machine/influence driven sport.
 
mylexicon said:
I don't complain that the sport is increasingly complicated. I complain that a human/mechanical sport has been turned into a software engineering contest ..................................... the sooner we will regain GP racing, and the sooner Lorenzo can sit at the real table with the other champs.
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I don't go with the artificial close racing manufactured in some forms of american motorsport like nascar, but dorna/the msma seem to have forgotten that what they are involved with is racing; have they surreptitiously removed it from their charter?



As far as lorenzo is concerned he can only ride what he is given as well as he can, which is very well, so at this stage he can only be judged on that with the hope that he will get to prove himself on something different in the future. He did nearly kill himself in his first year in motogp but progressed to riding pretty well mistake free as well as ungodly fast this year suggesting some ability to adapt.
 
@ lex : i think you're being a bit unfair. i mean thats kind of a double standard that you're applying there because superbikes aren't whatever you'd want to call "real gp bikes"



i certainly understand your point,its much the same as in f1 where people say that the drivers in the 80s were the real men.

but by saying such things you discredit the whole sport
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though i certainly do NOT agree with the current and the upcoming formula ,i think its important to differentiate what dorna and msma .... up and who are the riders that make the most out ouf it.



i don't know,i'm just really uncomfortable with your statements about real champs...winning a title in such a manner against the likes of rossi,stoner,pedro and all those other great great riders is freakin awesome.even if they raced mopeds ,they would be the best guys in the world and hence would gain my respect
 
Lex, I can understand your argument and why you argue it. However, I think that your inference that the rider does not control the throttle is off the mark to a degree. The first counter argument would be if the rider sits on the bike with it running and does not touch the throttle, what happens? The second argument or question would be, do you think that there is any feel between the throttle and the reaction to it of the engine, drive train and rear wheel? If there is no feel than I would have to agree with you 100% if there is feel then I would have to disagree with you to what ever % that feel is in comparison to a cable operating a carburettor on a similarly powered motorcycle would feel.



It is my opinion, and it can only be opinion because I have not ridden one let alone all of the 800cc MotoGP bikes, that the electronics that stand between the throttle and the rear wheel simply change the feel not remove it. It could easily be argued that the feel of the throttle and the rear wheel would be different between a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke, a twin and a 4, an inline and a V or L configuration. I bet there is even a different feel between a Yamaha MotoGP bike and a Ducati one. What I am getting at here is despite the components both electronic and mechanical that stand between the rider and the rear wheel it takes a rider to feel how those components work individually and as a package and then extract the most from them and themselves as possible. Therefore I don't see a dumbing down of the rider skill set just an adaptation of it to a slightly new set of skills, as after all it is still a racing motorcycle.
 
mylexicon said:
None of this has anything to do with me. I'm simply interpreting facts.
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It has a lot to do with you, because it is your interpretation of the facts that i disagree with. Don't pretend like you are just the messenger of a holy message. This may not be exactly the same sport as it was originally but your beloved 990's are closer to what we have now than they are to 1949 in every single way. The fundamentals of the sport have not changed, and Lorenzo's title is as valid as ANY other. Rite of passage my ..., you don't half make me laugh. I hope you sell .... for a living for way more than its worth, you could make a fortune deceiving ....... if some of your posts are anything to go by. Christ, compared to you jumkie seems unsure of his opinions
 
mylexicon said:
Thankfully, Krop is not the establishment. The only establishment who speak highly of Casey Stoner (the person) are Toby Moody and Julian Ryder. However, none of Stoner's proponents from the establishment disagree that Stoner is bad at handling the press or that he has a tendency to run his mouth at people who've spoken ill of him. What people like Krop and Toby Moody do say is that Stoner's vindictive loathing of the MotoGP establishment is merely his response to MotoGP and that Casey is an otherwise decent human being.



Imo, the fans need a better grasp of the argument. Stoner is indeed an anti-establishment Aussie who handles the press and other PR aspects of the sport quite poorly. He's also shown that he can hold a grudge against people who cross him, and he will hit out when given the opportunity. However, Casey Stoner is not a bad person.



Sometimes I think that MotoGP fans are obsessed with embracing dichotomy just to oversimplify everything. Rossi, the Pontiff vs. Stoner, the pariah. Is it not possible for the Pontiff to have a dark side (a side Rossi has clearly displayed in many instances throughout his career)? Is it not possible for the pariah to have many redeeming qualities, but still function as a pariah of sorts in comparison to Rossi?



My only problem with Stoner is that he is unabashedly anti-establishment, but then he whines when people attack him. What does he expect, and why does he give them the satisfaction of ruining his mood? Prior to this post I have never mentioned Stoner's whining so I have not leveled a single gripe against his character. You claim that I am being unfairly harsh, but I cannot be held responsible for reality.



True: Casey Stoner is the alien when he's on his game

True: Casey Stoner has won more 800cc races than any other rider to date

True: Casey Stoner makes most of his own PR problems

True: Casey Stoner holds grudges and he hits out at people who criticize him



If the guy has to be perfect for you to admire him, I can't help you.
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I still take issue with you over your use of language, particularly the word vindictive=



1. disposed to seek vengeance

2. characterized by spite or rancour



Its your decision to decide what you say, but there is an element of character-assasination there.

Its a bit like labelling Rossi as psycopath, because he uses all means at his disposal to seek personal gains. Again, such a term is excessive, inappropriate and unwarranted.



......and no, Stoner doesn,t have to be perfect for me to admire him. I am quite aware of his imperfections. As Krop has previously stated...............all motogp riders are the peak of their profession and to achieve success in such a competitive field (as is probably the case with most elite sportsmen and women) need to have a single-minded, obsessive approach to their sport, that is quite alien (that word again!) to the way the rest of us think and behave. We need to understand that they are different from us, and because the show they put on gives us so much pleasure, we need to accept their different approach to life, and not exaggerate their peculiarities.
 
Jumkie said:
Bunny, again, not sure what issue u hav with Lex's take. Its actually a very endearing quality, one that i like about him. And one that i think Lex nailed.



Well buddy, About Hayden, i dont think Rossi or Lorenzo or Pedro are that much faster or slower than Nicky. Watch 06 again. That was the first and last time at least 3 of that list were on fairly equal footing. Saying the other 3 "aliens" r head and shoulders compared to Hayden without qualifying it IS my point. I hav no problem peeps including u thinking im crazy or losing cred ranking Hayden so high. But stop and consider the following, how crazy would i hav sounded if i had said Rossi would be 15th and barely a nano sec faster than 'daddy-purchased-never been on a 800cc-seat of Karel Abraham??? Pause...



Now we could hav said Rossi would hav beat Stoner if they were Ducati teammates all our lives and never known. That is until now that we got a glimpse. Well my glimpse was 06. And thats while Nicky had many documented problems, but when his bike was decent, and the same could be said about Rossi that year, then we had a situation where he did dice with him. If we now choose to ignore the difference in experience 07 forward, then what can i say to convince u? I dont need convincing. I know that this sport is machine driven results combined with rider clout, both of which Hayden's never had! EXCEPT the 06 fluke where Honda was without Rossi while its sights were on their new rookie answer for the future. I shouldnt hav to go over what was the 07-08 Honda to explain his results. Im done with that. So that in a nut shell why i think Nicky is faster and better than a superficial assessment.
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I think the consencus here is that Hayden is not top 5, and you will probably have a bit less success in convincing people here that that is the case than say that Hayden, Stoner and Lorenzo are worthy world champions.

It all boils down to personal opinion I suppose, and the willingness to back your claim. Good luck
<
 
mylexicon said:
Stoner rode a 990. He lit the rear wheel up all over the circuit, and he crashed on the front (frequently) if he pushed into the corner too hard like he was on a 250. Imo, Stoner lived the 990 experience and he made the rite of passage before winning in 2007. He almost won at Turkey in 2006 and he was the fastest man on the circuit at Qatar until he overtaxed his tires.



Spies is a tough case b/c everyone knows that he can ride a big bike. He's the best superbike rider (another obvious yet somehow controversial remark) in the world and he was the reigning WSBK champ up until Biaggi capture the title this year. Imo, Spies has to prove he can ride cornerspeed b/c he never did anything on a 600. If he wins, I think he will demonstrate that he has the full repertoire.



I want for Lorenzo to make the jump to a liter bike without a fuel-limited formula or adaptive mu-learning fuel mapping. I can assure you, I'm not part of the people holding him back and forcing him to continue his 250 ways on a bike with an electronically controlled throttle. I'm dying for the kid to get on a 24L 990 with few electronic rider aids.



The only reason to continue riding GP right now is for the money and the thrill of riding a prototype bike that no one has ever ridden. The glory and the superlative rider accolades are becoming a thing of the past b/c the rider skill set is becoming so restricted. In the old days the riders controlled everything. In the new days, the riders control everything, but the throttle. People like to pretend that the riders still control the throttle but if all throttle control is supplied by the rider, why do they equip the bikes with TC, wheelie control, and adaptive fuel mapping? crickets



It's a shame b/c the riders are probably significantly better now that the sport has become so big and the talent pool has become so deep.
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rite of passage....................sheesh, who gives a rats anus.

Riders rcords are determined by world championships and race wins, not some arbitary " rite of passage" browny points.



Lex, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet over many things right now. To me there is a belligerent streak in you now, or is that an overly harsh assessment
<




(PS: Your technical knowledge of the sport is exceptional, and I enjoyed your posts without the personal assessments)
 
Bunyip said:
I think the consencus here is that Hayden is not top 5, and you will probably have a bit less success in convincing people here that that is the case than say that Hayden, Stoner and Lorenzo are worthy world champions.

It all boils down to personal opinion I suppose, and the willingness to back your claim. Good luck
<
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Where would Hayden rank in ur estimation if the grid were all current Ducatis? Where would Hayden rank if the grid were all 2007 Pedrocycles? Where would Hayden rank if the grid wer all 990cc?
 

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