Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
JohnnyKnockdown
Nonsense. Stoner threw nothing away. Those are the words of someone who believes that great racers Raison d'être (Click on the link to look it up) is satisfying the needs of the fans. Ergo... if he left racing before you were done with him - he has failed. But that's a false assumption.
Who here is really in a position to judge whether his reasons are good enough? It's his life; not yours or Pete's.
He spent his entire childhood schlepping around the world, busting his ..., getting injured, and risking his life
- so he could accomplish his goal. He met that goal. If racing was no longer satisfying, then why the .... should
he continue? Oh yeah.... because a couple of guys on the internet will think less of him. Stoner clearly never cared
about being loved by the fans. If anyone's development is "arrested" it's that of people who think these guys live
for the adulation of the fans. If that were so - wouldn't these guys make themselves more accessible? The greatest
success any human can accomplish is to be self-fulfilled. Apparently some people are so deluded that they believe
Stoner has missed out on the opportunity to be even happier than he is because he has not met expectations of
a few disgruntled fans. Some people on this forum can't stand the idea that Stoner's happiness doesn't hinge on
their praise. Your reasoning is the equivalent of that of guys who stalk famous woman movie stars in the belief that said star will only achieve happiness by being married to you, when in fact the star doesn't know you exist. It's a little sad that some people live vicariously through celebrities - but when you're convinced it's the other way around - it's delusional.
I live on the Lower East Side right on the border between Chinatown and what used to be the biggest shtetl (Jewish ghetto) outside of Krakow, and whenever I leave my building on a day that isn't freezing or raining, there are always a klatch of wrinkled old Jewish women huddled together on the benches in front of my building kvetching about their favorite subject: Why doesn't Babs (Barbara Striesand) do more live concerts these days? After getting a nose job, she maybe forgot her Jewish roots? Now she's too good for us? Has she converted to Christianity after being with all those Goyish movie stars? We made her what she is. She's nothing without us; her fans. How dare she turn her back on us. Such a waste. Oye gevalt! How can she live with herself?
Whenever I pass by the gossiping old biddies - I can't help but be reminded of you and Pete.
Nonsense. Stoner threw nothing away. Those are the words of someone who believes that great racers Raison d'être (Click on the link to look it up) is satisfying the needs of the fans. Ergo... if he left racing before you were done with him - he has failed. But that's a false assumption.
Who here is really in a position to judge whether his reasons are good enough? It's his life; not yours or Pete's.
He spent his entire childhood schlepping around the world, busting his ..., getting injured, and risking his life
- so he could accomplish his goal. He met that goal. If racing was no longer satisfying, then why the .... should
he continue? Oh yeah.... because a couple of guys on the internet will think less of him. Stoner clearly never cared
about being loved by the fans. If anyone's development is "arrested" it's that of people who think these guys live
for the adulation of the fans. If that were so - wouldn't these guys make themselves more accessible? The greatest
success any human can accomplish is to be self-fulfilled. Apparently some people are so deluded that they believe
Stoner has missed out on the opportunity to be even happier than he is because he has not met expectations of
a few disgruntled fans. Some people on this forum can't stand the idea that Stoner's happiness doesn't hinge on
their praise. Your reasoning is the equivalent of that of guys who stalk famous woman movie stars in the belief that said star will only achieve happiness by being married to you, when in fact the star doesn't know you exist. It's a little sad that some people live vicariously through celebrities - but when you're convinced it's the other way around - it's delusional.
I live on the Lower East Side right on the border between Chinatown and what used to be the biggest shtetl (Jewish ghetto) outside of Krakow, and whenever I leave my building on a day that isn't freezing or raining, there are always a klatch of wrinkled old Jewish women huddled together on the benches in front of my building kvetching about their favorite subject: Why doesn't Babs (Barbara Striesand) do more live concerts these days? After getting a nose job, she maybe forgot her Jewish roots? Now she's too good for us? Has she converted to Christianity after being with all those Goyish movie stars? We made her what she is. She's nothing without us; her fans. How dare she turn her back on us. Such a waste. Oye gevalt! How can she live with herself?
Whenever I pass by the gossiping old biddies - I can't help but be reminded of you and Pete.
Keshav
I am obviously with you. The argument about Stoner having "failed" or let down bike racing fans by retiring is always raised by people who hated him anyway and sought to detract from him when he was racing in any case. His actual fans whilst perhaps disappointed they no longer can enjoy following/watching him almost universally understand and are OK with his decision.
FWIW (nothing imo) if people want to speculate as to the psychological motivations of someone whom they have never met I think he decided that continuing to prove those who didn't like him wrong was not a good reason to continue. I also think his on the edge riding style whilst enjoyable to watch (for me anyway) was never going to be consistent with longevity, both because of the degree of focus it required and the likelihood of eventual significant injury.
When I initially followed the sport people generally seemed able to encompass all of Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Doohan as well as Schwantz and even Gardner having been at least at some stage in their respective careers rather good, and worthy world championship winners. I don't personally see the need to rank current or recent previous riders in some sort of theoretical pantheon and dismiss all those not at its zenith.
I am obviously with you. The argument about Stoner having "failed" or let down bike racing fans by retiring is always raised by people who hated him anyway and sought to detract from him when he was racing in any case. His actual fans whilst perhaps disappointed they no longer can enjoy following/watching him almost universally understand and are OK with his decision.
FWIW (nothing imo) if people want to speculate as to the psychological motivations of someone whom they have never met I think he decided that continuing to prove those who didn't like him wrong was not a good reason to continue. I also think his on the edge riding style whilst enjoyable to watch (for me anyway) was never going to be consistent with longevity, both because of the degree of focus it required and the likelihood of eventual significant injury.
When I initially followed the sport people generally seemed able to encompass all of Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Doohan as well as Schwantz and even Gardner having been at least at some stage in their respective careers rather good, and worthy world championship winners. I don't personally see the need to rank current or recent previous riders in some sort of theoretical pantheon and dismiss all those not at its zenith.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Thanks for taking the time to further discuss this topic regarding the importance of tires. I think you make some good points Talpa, though as JK mentioned I don't agree that Bridgestone was in the same position to provide custom tires over night. However, you make some other interesting suggestions.
Talpa
I made a mistake in my post which a friend pointed out. I said that Bridgestone had notched their first win sometime in 05, actually, checking with BJCpedia, it turns out their first win was in 04, at Brazil with Nakano.
You say best riders deserve the best. I'm curious to know how we could determine who is "the best"? I understand that recourses are limited, and it is a competition after all, however, if a few riders based on both talent and influence based solely on politics consistently get the goods, how can anybody else compete? I don't want to get off on a tangent, however, Pol Espargaro was linked to a factory Yamaha ride. He is talented no doubt, but if if he ends up on a competitive bike and Redding ends up on less, guess who will end up with the better results. Its not hard to predict that Pol would end up with the better results, and guess what people would conclude. Then what happens, Redding's career would ebb and Pol would continue to get facilitated results. Its a difficult dynamic to mitigate, I admit.
The SNS program was a bit shady at best, with no controls or transparency! Much of what we know about it is speculation, save the fact we knew it existed and we know a very few riders were given the opportunity. Try and get Kropos to tell you about the less than competitive tires at the back of the Pirelli semi-truck trailer in Wsbk. Randy Mamola spoke about the SNS program in his Alpinestars blog many years ago, and he said of the few riders (certainly not 8-10 but more like 1-4) it was debatable who got... in his words: "the good stuff". That is, despite the program of custom tires being available to a few riders and teams some may have got what they actually ordered while others might have got slightly less.
Talpa
I agree that VR & Co were the best at exploiting the SNS program....but why? I would start with giving credit to VR to communicate his tire needs and the team to support him in that regard AND Michelin for delivering the goods. This also begs the question, why were others not capable of such success? I remember Colin's quote, he said that VRs tires were hard as ..... Up until 2010, every team Rossi has ridden for has been his team. Do you think Rossi was going to tolerate Edwards getting suitable tires? Even though, I will admit, I don't think Edwards would have really challenged Rossi, as I consider the Italian the more talented rider. But then again, I would also consider Toni Elias far inferior to Rossi, and look what happened on a fateful day where he just happened to stumble on some 'good' tires! But the point is, would have Edwards really been in a position to demand and then get tires that would have risked taking points away from Rossi? I seriously doubt it buddy. After all my friend, les we forget why VR left Yamaha in the first place for what he thought was greener pastures.
Good point about the tire regs of 07 & 08, I forgot to mention this in my essay. The change in tire allotment did change the game quite a bit, but I disagree it gave Bridgestone the series. Michelin was plenty good even in 2007, and Bridgestone was plenty good in 2006. As I said, Loris/Ducati/Bridgestone was good enough to mount a title challenge. Even without Nicky's good luck (if you can call competing on a lab bike and getting torpedoed by a teammate good luck) and Valentino's bad luck, and I do admit Talps, VR did have lots of bad luck (though this has to be contrasted with the elevated status he had/has enjoyed for many years) even still, I believe without that Catalunya crash, Loris would have ended up the champ. Yes, a bit of speculation, but then again, the SNS program did leave much to the imagination, eh. I'll also add, you are correct that the tire allotment did hasten the demise of Michelin, though I think it was an unintended consequence. When the regs were discussed at the end of 06 to be implemented the following season, they never dreamed that Stoner (or as he was called, Crashy) was going to destroy the competition in 07.
Mr. Burgess was known for pulling a rabbit out of a hat come race day, more often than not, I contend that rabbit came in a FedEx box with a return address from France. I wouldn't blame Michelin for exiting the game, as they were thrown a vote of confidence from Ducati Corse in 2008 when they petitioned to work with the French tire manufacture as they had done exclusively with Bridgestone. Guess who nixed that proposal. On the heels of such a dominant 2007, lets consider why Dorna wouldn't want Ducati to work with Michelin for a moment, shall we? I leave it to you all to speculate the reasons...
Talpa
Agree with your opening sentence above Talps, that is exactly the point I'm trying to make, that is, very small advantages or unmitigated disadvantages (or disparity via a whole host of reasons) can have major repercussions on championships. 6 wins was quite a good season for Stoner right..., contrast that to the record breaking season of 2007 though; and friend, keep in mind the tires had moved away from the idiosyncratic Ducati just enough to make a difference, as you say, a tiny envelop of performance, now multiply that with a quirky unstable platform that is the Ducati (something nobody really actually fully believed until 2011).
I think VR's move to Bridgestone nailed the coffin, though Pedro's switch certainly did beat the dead horse.
Talpa
For the record Talps, I was for the spec tire. I was for it for the fact that it was such an un-level playing field prior to 07. But as you have made the case often, the unintended consequences of having a single tire supplier has left us with even less competition among the entires. At least in the 990 era culminating with 2006 we could on any given Sunday see a satellite on the top step, if not even a privateer! Now as you say, we are left with a ........ quartet of bikes on for the wins, the rest left to eat the crumbs of misfortune from the top 4. I have to disagree with your assessment that Valentino's struggle is due to the peculiar development synergy with the current M1 and the tires; I simply think Lorenzo is and his crew are just better than Rossi & Co. Its really just a continuation from 2010 where Lorenzo was matching and surpassing Rossi (excluding the leg injury). Now Lorenzo is even more confident, experienced, and mature, where I don't think YamahaGP Racing are treating the riders much differently then they did 3 years ago. And before you say that its now Lorenzo's bike, keep in mind when Lorenzo won the title in 2010, the M1 was decidedly Valentino's bike.
I also agree with your point that the 2011 championship was only going to be between Casey and Lorenzo. Pedrosa needed to be on the undisputed most dominant bike (which was delivered the second half of the season after HRC through everything at the project) for him to look halfway decent; whereas at least Stoner soldiered on and pressed for the better part of the first half until he got injured. After that it was pretty much game over and all Lorenzo had to do was manage the title. You can say that Lorenzo's championship was due to his competition being sequestered on inferior machines (some might actually erroneously conclude Lorenzo's rivals were themselves inferior, well in Pedrosa's case they would be right). But just like Rossi's competition was made to contend during the FUC era, in a way Rossi FUCed himself in 2010-2011.
Talpa
I made a mistake in my post which a friend pointed out. I said that Bridgestone had notched their first win sometime in 05, actually, checking with BJCpedia, it turns out their first win was in 04, at Brazil with Nakano.
You say best riders deserve the best. I'm curious to know how we could determine who is "the best"? I understand that recourses are limited, and it is a competition after all, however, if a few riders based on both talent and influence based solely on politics consistently get the goods, how can anybody else compete? I don't want to get off on a tangent, however, Pol Espargaro was linked to a factory Yamaha ride. He is talented no doubt, but if if he ends up on a competitive bike and Redding ends up on less, guess who will end up with the better results. Its not hard to predict that Pol would end up with the better results, and guess what people would conclude. Then what happens, Redding's career would ebb and Pol would continue to get facilitated results. Its a difficult dynamic to mitigate, I admit.
The SNS program was a bit shady at best, with no controls or transparency! Much of what we know about it is speculation, save the fact we knew it existed and we know a very few riders were given the opportunity. Try and get Kropos to tell you about the less than competitive tires at the back of the Pirelli semi-truck trailer in Wsbk. Randy Mamola spoke about the SNS program in his Alpinestars blog many years ago, and he said of the few riders (certainly not 8-10 but more like 1-4) it was debatable who got... in his words: "the good stuff". That is, despite the program of custom tires being available to a few riders and teams some may have got what they actually ordered while others might have got slightly less.
Talpa
I agree that VR & Co were the best at exploiting the SNS program....but why? I would start with giving credit to VR to communicate his tire needs and the team to support him in that regard AND Michelin for delivering the goods. This also begs the question, why were others not capable of such success? I remember Colin's quote, he said that VRs tires were hard as ..... Up until 2010, every team Rossi has ridden for has been his team. Do you think Rossi was going to tolerate Edwards getting suitable tires? Even though, I will admit, I don't think Edwards would have really challenged Rossi, as I consider the Italian the more talented rider. But then again, I would also consider Toni Elias far inferior to Rossi, and look what happened on a fateful day where he just happened to stumble on some 'good' tires! But the point is, would have Edwards really been in a position to demand and then get tires that would have risked taking points away from Rossi? I seriously doubt it buddy. After all my friend, les we forget why VR left Yamaha in the first place for what he thought was greener pastures.
Good point about the tire regs of 07 & 08, I forgot to mention this in my essay. The change in tire allotment did change the game quite a bit, but I disagree it gave Bridgestone the series. Michelin was plenty good even in 2007, and Bridgestone was plenty good in 2006. As I said, Loris/Ducati/Bridgestone was good enough to mount a title challenge. Even without Nicky's good luck (if you can call competing on a lab bike and getting torpedoed by a teammate good luck) and Valentino's bad luck, and I do admit Talps, VR did have lots of bad luck (though this has to be contrasted with the elevated status he had/has enjoyed for many years) even still, I believe without that Catalunya crash, Loris would have ended up the champ. Yes, a bit of speculation, but then again, the SNS program did leave much to the imagination, eh. I'll also add, you are correct that the tire allotment did hasten the demise of Michelin, though I think it was an unintended consequence. When the regs were discussed at the end of 06 to be implemented the following season, they never dreamed that Stoner (or as he was called, Crashy) was going to destroy the competition in 07.
Mr. Burgess was known for pulling a rabbit out of a hat come race day, more often than not, I contend that rabbit came in a FedEx box with a return address from France. I wouldn't blame Michelin for exiting the game, as they were thrown a vote of confidence from Ducati Corse in 2008 when they petitioned to work with the French tire manufacture as they had done exclusively with Bridgestone. Guess who nixed that proposal. On the heels of such a dominant 2007, lets consider why Dorna wouldn't want Ducati to work with Michelin for a moment, shall we? I leave it to you all to speculate the reasons...
Talpa
Agree with your opening sentence above Talps, that is exactly the point I'm trying to make, that is, very small advantages or unmitigated disadvantages (or disparity via a whole host of reasons) can have major repercussions on championships. 6 wins was quite a good season for Stoner right..., contrast that to the record breaking season of 2007 though; and friend, keep in mind the tires had moved away from the idiosyncratic Ducati just enough to make a difference, as you say, a tiny envelop of performance, now multiply that with a quirky unstable platform that is the Ducati (something nobody really actually fully believed until 2011).
I think VR's move to Bridgestone nailed the coffin, though Pedro's switch certainly did beat the dead horse.
Talpa
3533941370826305
So if we are to conclude that the rubber on the road, and Rossi's ability to use it, is the main contributing factor to his dominance of the sport during the 990 era, we then must also conclude that Stoner's dominance in 2007 (particularly due to the surprise nature of his dominance that year-and subsequent failure to ever reproduce this on the Ducati) was also mostly down to rubber-and his ability to use it. With the Bridgestone noose tightening evermore post 2009, Honda being what they are grabbed the best rider for the job- outspent, and outnumbered the competition in 2011 to finally grab on 800cc title, only to have this strategy backfire in 2012 and hand the title to Jorge and Yamaha. Stoner's decline in 2008 and 2012, once again is popularly contributed to a change in rubber supply to improve things for the competition, a lot of the proponents of this theory however don't apply the same explanation to Rossi's decline, in this case the competition is better now, Rossi only won because of this or that etc. Rossi's decline in 2007 can be directly attributed to rubber supply with a far more drastic change to the materials than what was 2008 or 2012, even in 2006 when he had two rubber failures during races. Not too mention his failure at Ducati, which as we are now seeing is predominantly due to rubber supply and Ducati's inability to engineer the bike around the tyre, whilst the competition, move on in leaps and bounds year after year. And even Rossi's troubles now with the Yamaha, being such a honed machine to work with the rubber, and Jorge's style, can either be attributed to Rossi never being good enough/not ever a match for the current crop without significant tech advantages or to a lack of rubber which works for Rossi and his machine..........just as with Casey or Jorge in 2011
Therefore 'rubber on the road' didn't just have game changing significance from 2001-2006......all results need to be viewed with the consideration of rubber and how it may or may not work for a particular rider and the competition.
For the record Talps, I was for the spec tire. I was for it for the fact that it was such an un-level playing field prior to 07. But as you have made the case often, the unintended consequences of having a single tire supplier has left us with even less competition among the entires. At least in the 990 era culminating with 2006 we could on any given Sunday see a satellite on the top step, if not even a privateer! Now as you say, we are left with a ........ quartet of bikes on for the wins, the rest left to eat the crumbs of misfortune from the top 4. I have to disagree with your assessment that Valentino's struggle is due to the peculiar development synergy with the current M1 and the tires; I simply think Lorenzo is and his crew are just better than Rossi & Co. Its really just a continuation from 2010 where Lorenzo was matching and surpassing Rossi (excluding the leg injury). Now Lorenzo is even more confident, experienced, and mature, where I don't think YamahaGP Racing are treating the riders much differently then they did 3 years ago. And before you say that its now Lorenzo's bike, keep in mind when Lorenzo won the title in 2010, the M1 was decidedly Valentino's bike.
I also agree with your point that the 2011 championship was only going to be between Casey and Lorenzo. Pedrosa needed to be on the undisputed most dominant bike (which was delivered the second half of the season after HRC through everything at the project) for him to look halfway decent; whereas at least Stoner soldiered on and pressed for the better part of the first half until he got injured. After that it was pretty much game over and all Lorenzo had to do was manage the title. You can say that Lorenzo's championship was due to his competition being sequestered on inferior machines (some might actually erroneously conclude Lorenzo's rivals were themselves inferior, well in Pedrosa's case they would be right). But just like Rossi's competition was made to contend during the FUC era, in a way Rossi FUCed himself in 2010-2011.
barbedwirebiker
Scroll down the page until you see "Valentino Rossi's profile" then click on "Grid".
All the orange boxes are poles, green and blue front row starts.
2009: 7 poles, 6 other front row starts, never qualifies lower than 4th.
2008: only 2 poles, 8 other front row starts, 3 other second row starts
2007: 4 poles, 7 other front row starts
2006: a bad year. 5 poles, but only 3 other front rows starts
2005: 5 poles, 4 front row starts
2004: 5 poles, 8 front row starts
2003: 9 poles, 4 front row starts, 2 fourths and a fifth
2002: 7 poles, 3 front row starts
2001: 4 poles, 7 front row starts
2000: rookie season. 2 front row starts
2010: damages shoulder, breaks leg.
2011: moves to Ducati
Yeah, Rossi never qualified well.
http://www.motogp.com/en/riders/Valentino+Rossi
Scroll down the page until you see "Valentino Rossi's profile" then click on "Grid".
All the orange boxes are poles, green and blue front row starts.
2009: 7 poles, 6 other front row starts, never qualifies lower than 4th.
2008: only 2 poles, 8 other front row starts, 3 other second row starts
2007: 4 poles, 7 other front row starts
2006: a bad year. 5 poles, but only 3 other front rows starts
2005: 5 poles, 4 front row starts
2004: 5 poles, 8 front row starts
2003: 9 poles, 4 front row starts, 2 fourths and a fifth
2002: 7 poles, 3 front row starts
2001: 4 poles, 7 front row starts
2000: rookie season. 2 front row starts
2010: damages shoulder, breaks leg.
2011: moves to Ducati
Yeah, Rossi never qualified well.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Krops, thank for this post. Actually, I knew VR had a decent qual record, but I will admit, I had the impression his grid positions were often contrasted by his race result. An interesting chart might be, where did VR finish in races he was not the pole man (no pun).
Jumkie
I had the same impression. But then I was looking up old pole records, and kept seeing Rossi's name, so I checked. What is true is that his win count usually exceeded his pole count, so it is is technically true to say that he raced better than he qualified. But while going from 3rd on the grid to 1st is technically an improvement, qualifying 3rd is still qualifying extremely well. That may be the source of the confusion.
JohnnyKnockdown
Honestly?? Slightly long bow to draw I would have thought. A guy who retires to raise a family and run around in v8's a few weekends a year being compared to Beiber and his exotic monkey collection?
Honestly?? Slightly long bow to draw I would have thought. A guy who retires to raise a family and run around in v8's a few weekends a year being compared to Beiber and his exotic monkey collection?
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
All all of you ignorant or just not paying attention.
Stoner didnt retire. He quit and joined another series.
Your point that he left GP to raise a family and go fishing is moot when he traded one job for another.
I know you keep grasping for excuses because none of the others made any sense other then to portray him as a weak minded quitter.
Keshav you used words like self fulfilled and happy. A self fuffilled, happy person doesnt go around tossing barbs at his past and present competitors.
Maybe you got the wrong Aussie because the only one I see in that position is Bayliss.
You are mistaken that you think he has let down people like me who are fans. Im glad the little .......... is gone. If hes not happy riding the silver platter handed him then the ungrateful .... should .... off. I would much rather a guy with passion tool around in last place
then see a mega talent with no heart like Casey Gobert rail at the unfair world that has placed him on the best motorcycle on the planet.
Stoner didnt retire. He quit and joined another series.
Your point that he left GP to raise a family and go fishing is moot when he traded one job for another.
I know you keep grasping for excuses because none of the others made any sense other then to portray him as a weak minded quitter.
Keshav you used words like self fulfilled and happy. A self fuffilled, happy person doesnt go around tossing barbs at his past and present competitors.
Maybe you got the wrong Aussie because the only one I see in that position is Bayliss.
You are mistaken that you think he has let down people like me who are fans. Im glad the little .......... is gone. If hes not happy riding the silver platter handed him then the ungrateful .... should .... off. I would much rather a guy with passion tool around in last place
then see a mega talent with no heart like Casey Gobert rail at the unfair world that has placed him on the best motorcycle on the planet.
JohnnyKnockdown
On that point, can I just say that there's a little difference in the "job" and it's impact on his ability to raise a family in his chosen way. One is a series that is European-based and required him to be based o/s, and consisted of 18 race weekends. The other "job" is based in his now home state, and has a grand total of 7 race weekends for the entire year, and all are held in Australia.
I can see your point in some respects, and each to his own in relation to the points that I don't really agree with, but I just think it's somewhat harsh to level MotoGP and the V8 development series as same/same.
On that point, can I just say that there's a little difference in the "job" and it's impact on his ability to raise a family in his chosen way. One is a series that is European-based and required him to be based o/s, and consisted of 18 race weekends. The other "job" is based in his now home state, and has a grand total of 7 race weekends for the entire year, and all are held in Australia.
I can see your point in some respects, and each to his own in relation to the points that I don't really agree with, but I just think it's somewhat harsh to level MotoGP and the V8 development series as same/same.
s
JohnnyKnockdown
Your attitude and the attitude of those of your ilk was the same when he was on the worst (prior to CRT) bike on the planet which if I was to indulge in the kind of speculation which is your wont is perhaps why he decided that a sizeable proportion of motogp fans (I very advisedly don't say bike racing fans) weren't worth worrying about. If his retirement further pisses you and other such people off, so much the better. If you wish to draw parallels with Anthony Gobert, I can only assume you are suggesting Stoner should have won 20 premier class world titles and 400 premier class races at the very minimum but for weak-mindedness, given his and Gobert's relative achievements.
JohnnyKnockdown
Your attitude and the attitude of those of your ilk was the same when he was on the worst (prior to CRT) bike on the planet which if I was to indulge in the kind of speculation which is your wont is perhaps why he decided that a sizeable proportion of motogp fans (I very advisedly don't say bike racing fans) weren't worth worrying about. If his retirement further pisses you and other such people off, so much the better. If you wish to draw parallels with Anthony Gobert, I can only assume you are suggesting Stoner should have won 20 premier class world titles and 400 premier class races at the very minimum but for weak-mindedness, given his and Gobert's relative achievements.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Talpa
Very well constructed post and already dissected by Jum.
I agree with much of what you say but had to take exception to this - it was hardly a 'simple compound change' that crippled the Honda's last season. It was a last minute major alteration to the carcass itself which became much softer and easier to get heat into. The solution in the event for HRC, was funnily enough a 'simple' one - but wasn't forthcoming until Laguna in the wake of innumerable chassis revisions.
Also Jum, I disagree that the proverbial JB 'rabbit out of the hat' on race day was solely down to SNS' and an auspicious DHL delivery from Clermont Ferrand on a Sunday morning . As I mentioned in the Bautista thread, it owed as much to systematic elimination - even serendipitous experimentation during morning warm up..and sometimes even a change in the weather. There are huge interrelated variables, often in flux, and constantly exerting influence throughout a race weekend - in respect of that, let's give Alex Briggs and Brent Stephens their due too. When we learned that the garage had 'found' something it didn't always mean a large package on a sack barrow at the back of the garagemarked for the attention of Mr Rossi and Mr.Burgess .
Very well constructed post and already dissected by Jum.
I agree with much of what you say but had to take exception to this - it was hardly a 'simple compound change' that crippled the Honda's last season. It was a last minute major alteration to the carcass itself which became much softer and easier to get heat into. The solution in the event for HRC, was funnily enough a 'simple' one - but wasn't forthcoming until Laguna in the wake of innumerable chassis revisions.
Also Jum, I disagree that the proverbial JB 'rabbit out of the hat' on race day was solely down to SNS' and an auspicious DHL delivery from Clermont Ferrand on a Sunday morning . As I mentioned in the Bautista thread, it owed as much to systematic elimination - even serendipitous experimentation during morning warm up..and sometimes even a change in the weather. There are huge interrelated variables, often in flux, and constantly exerting influence throughout a race weekend - in respect of that, let's give Alex Briggs and Brent Stephens their due too. When we learned that the garage had 'found' something it didn't always mean a large package on a sack barrow at the back of the garagemarked for the attention of Mr Rossi and Mr.Burgess .
Arrabbiata1
I largely agree with what Talpa thinks about the control tyre, if not necessarily with his extrapolation of his conclusions to individual riders. I think it has made competition less rather than more even, and has increased rather than decreased costs.
I personally think that Rossi won all those races and championships because he is really good, and that like Mick Doohan the ability of him and his team to set up bikes was a very significant part of his edge, hence his reluctance to share his data in which he was similar to Doohan. He also managed to find things overnight after the sns tyre era, with Laguna Seca 2008 one example.
I can't see how he can have instructed Michelin very precisely on how to cook the tyres, I suspect they looked at the conditions and the tyre wear data etc from the practice sessions and went from there, obviously taking account of the preferences in general of the elite riders for whom they were catering. I also find it hard to believe that Michelin discriminated heavily in favour of Rossi against HRC.
Both he and Stoner now look as though they had extreme tyre preferences though, and it was said during 2007 with the original "hard" Bridgestone that no-one other than Stoner could make it work, similar to what Edwards said about Rossi's SNS tyres.
I agree with Jumkie that the law of unintended consequences operated after the abolition of the SNS tyres, with no-one including Australian fans foreseeing how the 800 Ducati and the tyre which Bridgestone had developed would suit Stoner so well, or even that Stoner was capable of putting together a whole season. If Ducati had got their pre-season preference, which was Marco Melandri well ahead of Stoner, it seems likely Michelin riders would have finished first and second in the 2007 championship.
I largely agree with what Talpa thinks about the control tyre, if not necessarily with his extrapolation of his conclusions to individual riders. I think it has made competition less rather than more even, and has increased rather than decreased costs.
I personally think that Rossi won all those races and championships because he is really good, and that like Mick Doohan the ability of him and his team to set up bikes was a very significant part of his edge, hence his reluctance to share his data in which he was similar to Doohan. He also managed to find things overnight after the sns tyre era, with Laguna Seca 2008 one example.
I can't see how he can have instructed Michelin very precisely on how to cook the tyres, I suspect they looked at the conditions and the tyre wear data etc from the practice sessions and went from there, obviously taking account of the preferences in general of the elite riders for whom they were catering. I also find it hard to believe that Michelin discriminated heavily in favour of Rossi against HRC.
Both he and Stoner now look as though they had extreme tyre preferences though, and it was said during 2007 with the original "hard" Bridgestone that no-one other than Stoner could make it work, similar to what Edwards said about Rossi's SNS tyres.
I agree with Jumkie that the law of unintended consequences operated after the abolition of the SNS tyres, with no-one including Australian fans foreseeing how the 800 Ducati and the tyre which Bridgestone had developed would suit Stoner so well, or even that Stoner was capable of putting together a whole season. If Ducati had got their pre-season preference, which was Marco Melandri well ahead of Stoner, it seems likely Michelin riders would have finished first and second in the 2007 championship.
kindo
Stoner hated the GP paddock. It really was as simple as that.
Given that Mr Stoner has spent the last few months in the US, due to the Australian tax authorities taking a surprisingly keen interest in his business affairs, this argument would appear not to hold water.
Stoner hated the GP paddock. It really was as simple as that.
Wow. Casey is long gone and Vale's little yellow-thonged clownettes still won't forgive him.
Sure, Casey wasn't the most eloquent guy on the paddock. Also, sometimes he may have been better served to keep his mouth shut. But he is human - a simple human with flaws. However, this flawed farm boy could ride a bike.
If we all want to psychoanalyze, then perhaps the Stoner detractors would better analyzing themselves. I think most of the scorn thrown Stoner's way is not for the way he handled himself in front of a camera or his lack of gratitude etc. I believe the scorn is because many people found it a very bitter pill to swallow that their god (Rossi) was being shown up by a human being. For years Rossi was pumped up as some kind of god-like figure and perhaps even Rossi himself eventually believed it. In front of the camera, Rossi does come across as a great and fun guy. But it's an act. We will never know, but perhaps Rossi was a real ....... towards Stoner when the cameras weren't rolling. And Stoner didn't play the game when the cameras WERE rolling. Maybe there is a reason Stoner openly showed Rossi no respect. But for the unquestioning Rossi worshipers, the idea that their perfect God is far from perfect is unthinkable. Rather than face reality, it's easier for people to hate the messenger. In this case, the messenger is Stoner.
Sure, Casey wasn't the most eloquent guy on the paddock. Also, sometimes he may have been better served to keep his mouth shut. But he is human - a simple human with flaws. However, this flawed farm boy could ride a bike.
If we all want to psychoanalyze, then perhaps the Stoner detractors would better analyzing themselves. I think most of the scorn thrown Stoner's way is not for the way he handled himself in front of a camera or his lack of gratitude etc. I believe the scorn is because many people found it a very bitter pill to swallow that their god (Rossi) was being shown up by a human being. For years Rossi was pumped up as some kind of god-like figure and perhaps even Rossi himself eventually believed it. In front of the camera, Rossi does come across as a great and fun guy. But it's an act. We will never know, but perhaps Rossi was a real ....... towards Stoner when the cameras weren't rolling. And Stoner didn't play the game when the cameras WERE rolling. Maybe there is a reason Stoner openly showed Rossi no respect. But for the unquestioning Rossi worshipers, the idea that their perfect God is far from perfect is unthinkable. Rather than face reality, it's easier for people to hate the messenger. In this case, the messenger is Stoner.
Kropotkin
I am sure you are right, particularly given that you are informed by actually having talked to the bloke.
From my less informed perspective I think having a second world championship for a different manufacturer again widely attributed to bike advantage, and regulation changes again rapidly following a championship win confirmed his belief that things tended not to work in his favour, whether or not the regulation changes were aimed at him.
I am sure you are right, particularly given that you are informed by actually having talked to the bloke.
From my less informed perspective I think having a second world championship for a different manufacturer again widely attributed to bike advantage, and regulation changes again rapidly following a championship win confirmed his belief that things tended not to work in his favour, whether or not the regulation changes were aimed at him.
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