Arrabbiata1
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I agree, but will always disagree about the
depth of field.
I don't think that Barros, Criville, KRjnr, Sete, Nicky, Melandri, and Loris..and probably Biaggi
presented anywhere near the level of competition for Vale that Lorenzo, Pedrosa, formerly Stoner and now Marquez present. (Can I tentatively and contentiously add Cal to that?
).
This is on the basis of both differential in machinery and talent. Max, Sete, KRjnr, and Melandri in particular had nothing approaching the mental fortitude nor guile of, dare I say the three aliens, - (something which Dani has certainly significantly strengthened over the years) and were renowned for their mental fragility. Criville could hardly be considered contempraneous in terms of challenging a championship campaign. KrJnr won the championship in Rossi's maiden - but learning year, then languished on the abortive Suzuki 990 project which was wholly incapable of taking it to HRC. It was only when the Honda motor was housed in his Dad's chassis that he showed any hint of his former glory - the same year Yamaha ...... up heir own chassis development - and also the year of Loris's greatest challenge to the title.
2002 and 2003? The HRC years? Let's not even go there - Rossi's advantage was absurd..it was as embarrassing to watch then as it is now.
Transport Dani, Casey, Jorge and Marc as they are now, back to the 990 era (which of course Stoner and Pedrosa debuted impressively in the final year of the formula), and hypothetically with Dani and Casey on factory Honda's and Jorge alongside Vale on an M1 I reckon the Doctor would have prevailled over the Spaniards...just, Stoner being the serious thorn in his side for a multitude of reasons. Marquez would have been simply scary. Such comparisons although fun are ultimately of no validity and purely in the realm of speculation though.
Would have loved to have seen Dani, Jorge, and Casey on a 500.
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Pov said: Exactly, Stoner has more wins than Biagii, Barros, KRJR and Gibernau combined. I have said it since i put down the cool aid in around 06-07, Rossi's stats are real, and you can only beat who they throw out there, BUT, the level of competition he faced in the first half of his career was sub par compared to the second half. Its not a coincidence that his winning % fell by half once the likes of Stoner, Pedrosa, then Jorge came on the scene. If Stoner were still around, { and i keep hoping it happens} Rossi would be the 5th best rider in the series at this point in time. Had he faced that gauntlet in the early 2000's, his name would not be in the running for GOAT in the series.
As usual, your insight and knowledge of racing history are impeccable. I agree your list of previous competitors did not present
“near the level of competition” as the current ‘new kids on the block’;
however, my reasons to account for the discrepancy are a bit different. I humbly tender my reasons for your examination. I’m not so sure the current
‘krop’ of riders we call "aliens" ( I hate that term) are really that much better or their predecessors that much worse compared to Valentino Rossi. I have read Kropo make the contention that all the young guns, that is the
new krop, starting with the 06 class of rookies, are better because, according to his assertion, they knew they had to up their game to chase the VR rabbit. Honestly, I don’t subscribe to this concocted explanation. Given the premise of such rational, I think it’s an error (at best) to think Valentino’s contemporaries prior to 06 were taken by surprise, acutely oblivious, or not actively trying to beat their celebrated rival with every available means at their disposal; whilst Pedrosa, Stoner, Lorenzo and Marc were decidedly focused on Valentino during their stints in the lower categories. Our perceptions
detect a ‘change’ in the overall competitive level lodged against Valentino at some point in time, as to what
accounts for this ‘change in level’ is up for debate. For the purpose of my assertion, lets call the two diverging periods:
FUC and post-FUC eras (see below). Here is my personal take as to what accounts for the difference in
level of competitiveness as it relates to fellow competitors between eras:
Rossi's uninterrupted "dominance" ended when the tire provision changed!!!
(Arrabi, one small disclaimer, despite me quoting your post, I'm using it also as an intermediary to present my alternate position.) I was more spawned to replay based on Pov's post, of which I will use yours as a springboard to refute. (I couldn't figure out how to do that quote inside a quote, where my intention was to quote you and Pov in that 'picture in picture' style. Edit: I sort of figured it out.)
FUC vs. Post-FUC era (Facilitated Uninterrupted Championships). I disagree with the notion that the competition, in general, was all that better after 07 or was all that inferior prior to 06, though I would agree with some of your individual assessment of particular and respective rider’s mental condition and disparity of machine.
For me the general difference in the seemingly increased level of competitiveness rests largely and primarily on the fact that they no longer were subjected to compete with the disadvantage of having decidedly inferior or non-custom tires!!!
When Bridgestone entered the fray in 02 they were of no consequence to the title contenders, as long as your machine was not shod with the brand, you might contend. (Same for Dunlops.) The clench of Michelin over Uninterrupted Championships did not look to be released any time soon; this resulted in a
de facto single tire supplier…that is, they singularly supplied the titles (and the wins for that matter). While quietly making improvements in relation to Michelin’s dominance, Bridgestone tried to find a way to quell the advantage held by the French company over MotoGP racing. Nobody noticed because they hadn't yet challenged the status quo. Sometime in 05 they scored their first win. At the end of 05, Bridgestone were making improvements, and by 06 the Japanese tire company had caught up to the French, but still
nobody really noticed. And why would they as the hat remained a Michelin cap on the head of Valentino during the podium ceremonies.
Spectators were fixated on a string of circumstance in 2006, no, not that its unusual for riders to endure mechanicals, crashes, torpedoes from friends & foes, forced and unforced errors during a season; but the fact these were also, that is, in addition happening to Valentino meant that only cursory attention was given to tire parity. The talking points on the lips and keyboards of spectators and journalists alike were about VR's ‘bad luck’ (or was it Hayden’s good luck); I mean, how else could anybody explain the idiosyncrasy and indecorous conferring of a title on a fluke pretender which rightfully belonged to Mr. Rossi? Meanwhile, the Japanese tire engineers unmoved by the war of words conducted in racing forums continued to press on. Loris' chance for headlines were dashed at Cataluña.
Otherwise more attention might have been focused on Bridgestone had Loris continued his competitive run, quite
conceivably resulting in a 2006 Ducati Bridgestone title. Thank fake-God…providence intervened.
The end of FUC and the beginning of the post-FUC era started with a bang, or should I say, a screamer. Who was talking about the tires back then? Kropo recently lamented that it’s soap style drama that has been missing lately when he wrote about the “war of words” between Scott Redding and Pol Espargaro (see his latest entry). It’s the human drama we as spectators follow with much interest, and frankly, he is right. Thing is when we are focused on the drama, sometimes behind the scenes material is missed. The war of words between riders in 06 never really happened, even when Pedrosa torpedoed Hayden, the Kentuckian refused to throw the Spaniard under the bus. Opting to punch the sky into oblivion and curse the air around him while the .... flinging was left to armchair fanboys such as myself.
Enter 2007, Stoner who had previously been sequestered by 3rd tier Michelins on a 2nd tier satellite Honda, was suddenly
unshackled by the much improved but relatively unnoticed Bridgestones. Most of the attention initially and erroneously focused on the straight-line speed of the Ducati GP7 (and how couldn’t they, as its the “fundamental of racing”, right Rob?…I digress). Bridgestones were not only making hay with Stoner’s superb results, but it also looked like John Hopkin’s Suzuki was finally coming around too. Kawasaki was making small but steady progress, the
common denominator among these was the Japanese
tires adorning the wheels.
The generally accepted advantage Stoner enjoyed (according to most) was the Ducati GP7’s speed dominance over Valentino’s M1 (shelving the fact all the other GP7s in the field, equally as fast, struggled to make mid-pack on any given Sunday.) So something is to be said about individual talent, however, it was still made possible by a tire that combined with Stoner’s ability resulted in success,
a success that he could not achieve on 3rd tier Michelins. Again, as in 04-05 while Bridgestone made progress, scoring the odd win & podium here and there, most moths were contemplating the radiant light coming from Valentino and basking in its glory. We had accepted that 06 was a fluke year, however 07 was again frustrating for Dorna’s TV ratings, a brazen situation that could not and would not remain unmitigated. (Sorry Krops, that tin hat of mine is surgically attached to my head).
At some point Valentino surmised it was the Michelins that were holding him back, an advantage that Dorna tried to alleviate predicated on Valentino's behest. A mild request from Valentino combined with a placid warning to the league of prospective withdrawal, that was more than ample reason to garner Dorna’s attention, because of course threats of leaving the championship would be catastrophic for the promoter. The shrewd negotiation tactic worked. In 2008, order was restored and the rightful king sat on the throne once again. In 2008,
where were the “superior” new krop of contenders of Pedrosa, Lorenzo and Casey, the
supposed "better" competition? I would propose they were suffering from a vestibule of the FUC era, where tires (if you were on the right ones) sway massive influence toward titles. That is, for 2008 the new
krop of rivals tasted the flip side of the coin. (I should mention, Pedrosa had the luxury of custom tires back in 06).
Rossi was the only one to make the switch starting 08, and a new tire to boot, one seemingly now formulated for the benefit of Valentino Rossi (if not by design then by happenstance), les we forget the 08 spec Bridgestone changed so much that Casey pleaded to be allowed to use the 07 spec. Lorenzo was still making trips to the moon despite his impressive debut, meanwhile
Pedrosa, still enjoying the failure of his own personal Pedrocycle was scheming how he could tantrum his way into Carmelo Clause’s good graces. The Christmas present came early and Pedrosa was soon enjoying Bridgestones mid season.
Despite Lorenzo and Hayden's pleas, both were to remain on Michelin tires! Michelin had fallen out of the good graces of the contenders (well the important contenders at the time).
It was deemed, if you had Michelins you could 'no longer compete'!!! Stop and think about this for a moment. You mean just a minor difference in suitability of tire (even if you are on a factory RCV or M1 as were Lorenzo and Hayden) and one's fortunes to contend change?!?
It wasn't enough to be on a factory Yamaha or Honda, it had to be a factory Yamaha or Honda WITH Bridgestones! (I've made the case that Pedrosa is not the "alien" that everybody thinks he is more times than you've told us Parish and Cox are cocks, and I've enjoyed every exquisite time you have repeated it my dear friend; but I'll say it again, Valentino's only competition in 08 was a ........ midget pretender aided by more influence than talent. Everybody is suddenly in awe of Pedros improvements, which coincidently start with the latter end of last year when the RCV became the undisputed best bike on the grid? Really? Put the ...... on a smidgen less and I guarantee we will see the limp .... contender that we have enjoyed making fun of for the last 8 years. ...., lets not even talk about putting him on a satellite or Ducati.) Who else was going to win the 08 title, in Lorenzo's rookie year given the fact tires had moved decidedly away from Stoner while Pedrosa got Bridgestones mid season? That is a fine way of Facilitating titles, wouldn't you say? I know when somebody is getting FUCed when I see it.
This doesn't exactly point to a change in level of talent but rather a change in the package one must use to contend! Interesting, right Toni Elias (06 Estoril). (For those not getting the reference, in 2006 Toni Elias, by mere happenstance used Pedrosa’s discarded custom tires, it was the first and only time Elias would win a MotoGP race. A rather compelling anecdote for the power of suitable tires as it relates to success on the track).
That is the gist of my assertion: it’s the tires that can make or break championships, and it was during the FUC era that Valentino enjoyed a series of Uninterrupted Championships--titles that were facilitated by custom tires, superior brand of tires including the years others were sequestered on inferior specs. Once Bridgestone company was able to annul the advantage held by Michelins, the championship run was interrupted! The changing of the guard between previous and supposedly “inferior” competitors (Biaggis, KRjrs, Barros, Setes, Melandris, Loris’ & Haydens) whom decidedly competed during the FUC era (while the Pedorsas, Stoners, Lorenzos were post-FUC)
coincided with the changing of tire parity! As to adding
Cal Crutchlow to the post-FUC era of competitors against VR? Absolutely you can add Cal to the list for this year, after all he is in fact beating Rossi on the
same spec tires on a
satellite rendition of the bike Valentino is riding. That is
exactly and precisely my point! Its not so much that the new
krop are better but rather they now have the "luxury" of competing on
more level playing field (well, at least those riding a packaged capable to challenge VR). It’s a situation that for the most part, the new
krop of riders did not experience except when Rossi was again elevated to the tires of his choosing. Otherwise they (the new
krop) would have competed on the back foot as predecessor rivals did during the FUC era. They were not inferior to the new
krop, they were simply not experiencing being FUCed every year.
What happened to the new super krop of challengers after 2009? Is it that they finally lived up to the notion that they had gunned for Valentino all this time but perhaps had forgot about it the previous 2 years? After 08, Michelins dropped out, and Dunlops went back to their
Island (no not the UK, I meant Moto2). With Bridgestone the single tire supplier, the spec tire was to become the staple. If there is any doubt as to just how influential tires can be toward a championship, look no further than 2012. Even with what was generally accepted (coming into the season) as the best machine/rider combo on the grid, Stoner’s RCV encountered problems with the new tire. Even the talent of Casey (who was the only man able to tame the wildest of MotoGP beasts) could not mitigate the situation! That is saying something. It wasn’t until HRC designed and presented a legion of chassis configurations did Pedrosa finally looked to turn the corner. Meanwhile, the M1’s characteristics where much better suited to deal with the peculiar tire (one that again had been changed because riders complained about early race heating issues). One can say it was a championship of attrition, but then again, most are, save the odd 2007 annihilation of the competition.
There are other facets that I could list in the FUC and post FUC eras to
account for the ‘change in level’ of competition regarding Rossi’s rivals. However, I content the primary reason for VR’s tenure of uninterrupted run of titles vs. the assertion that the new krop of riders are superior, can best be understood if one examines
were the rubber actually meets the road.
