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Can Rossi beat Lorenzo at least once in a Race or Qualifying this season?

Can Rossi beat Lorenzo at least once in a Race or Qualifying this season?

  • yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • no

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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Arrabbiata1
3532531370604201

I agree, but will always disagree about the depth of field.

 

I don't think that Barros, Criville, KRjnr, Sete, Nicky, Melandri, and Loris..and probably Biaggi presented anywhere near the level of competition for Vale that Lorenzo, Pedrosa, formerly Stoner and now Marquez present. (Can I tentatively and contentiously add Cal to that? ;) ). This is on the basis of both differential in machinery and talent. Max, Sete, KRjnr, and Melandri in particular had nothing approaching the mental fortitude nor guile of, dare I say the three aliens, - (something which Dani has certainly significantly strengthened over the years) and were renowned for their mental fragility. Criville could hardly be considered contempraneous in terms of challenging a championship campaign. KrJnr won the championship in Rossi's maiden - but learning year, then languished on the abortive Suzuki 990 project which was wholly incapable of taking it to HRC. It was only when the Honda motor was housed in his Dad's chassis that he showed any hint of his former glory - the same year Yamaha ...... up heir own chassis development - and also the year of Loris's greatest challenge to the title.

 

2002 and 2003? The HRC years? Let's not even go there - Rossi's advantage was absurd..it was as embarrassing to watch then as it is now.

 

Transport Dani, Casey, Jorge and Marc as they are now, back to the 990 era (which of course Stoner and Pedrosa debuted impressively in the final year of the formula), and hypothetically with Dani and Casey on factory Honda's and Jorge alongside Vale on an M1 I reckon the Doctor would have prevailled over the Spaniards...just, Stoner being the serious thorn in his side for a multitude of reasons. Marquez would have been simply scary. Such comparisons although fun are ultimately of no validity and purely in the realm of speculation though.

 

Would have loved to have seen Dani, Jorge, and Casey on a 500.


No, you may not add Cal.


That is all.
 
Rossi the clown will get a win or two this season, I'm sure of that.  It just sucks how he purposely had to break his leg to have an excuse to lose out on a fair fight on the year Lorenzo won the championship.  The clown will always have an excuse from now on, even this year if he's healthy...... because he can just say he wasn't in his prime and on a bike that has changed.  Man Rossi pisses me off.
 
eltoro
3533411370708681

...., what is with Jumkie writing these long ... posts lately?  Did he go dry or celibate?


I hear local coke dealers are giving away free samples.
 
eltoro
3533411370708681

...., what is with Jumkie writing these long ... posts lately?  Did he go dry or celibate?


 


:D


I was thinking the same thing.  "Uh, oh, it looks like wifey banished him to the sofa."
 
Garbin
3533441370711223

Are we in danger of over analysing this?  Rossi: older, never been the same since the broken leg and de-motivated as he been there, done it and got the T-shirt?  Guy just hasn't retired because he doesn't have anything better to do (fishing must be particularly crap in Italy)


 


 


Doesn't matter who you are if you retire at the top of your game you buy for yourself a "what if" for all of history. When you are battling with Bautista and you're on the factory bike "what if" is answered. 


 


That is why musicians who joined the "27 club" are revered eternally. 


 


Hmmmm the "27" club - na, just a coincidence. 


 


 


 


 


 


Edit: Jum, it must be summer over there, you are brown, go outside and get browner, go for a swim or ride a bike. Constructing 400,000 word replies is Lex's job.


 


I'd say his supplier has been arrested. 
 
Geonerd
3533351370700262

Superb effort, Jum! 


I agree...a brilliantly reasoned, evaluated and argued post. 


 


I have little to add, particularly since I intentionally omitted the political game surrounding rubber which is albeit integral to the issue but a separate debate in itself. 


 


Jum, we discussed your disapproval of the term 'aliens' during the drive to the border that evening - which is why I said 'dare I say'. 


 


Nonetheless I stand by my view. I don't consider any rider of the Moto GP era on the same level as Stoner, Rossi, Pedrosa and Lorenzo. 


 


I also do not subscribe to the view that Marquez had preferential machinery/treatment in Moto2. It's too early to even postulate a possible place in the pantheon of greats in respect of the premier class. I believe had there been no convenient u-turn of the rookie rule - Marquez would still be acquitting himself very well on a supposedly inferior satellite ride. The kid is ridiculously quick and formidably intelligent  - the race craft to match will be forthcoming.
 
Stoner was a ..... Is this the right thread?


 


All I'm seeing is folk crying and pretending that the young guns didn't see Rossi as the benchmark to beat. Get a grip for ..... sake, to quote Nicky, "numbers don't lie." Get over it girls.


 


 


If stoner had half the mental fortitude of vale or even Pedrochio, he would still be racing.


 


Vale was the benchmark, then Bridgestone, then Jorge.
 
basspete
3533821370806494

Stoner was a ..... Is this the right thread?


 


All I'm seeing is folk crying and pretending that the young guns didn't see Rossi as the benchmark to beat. Get a grip for ..... sake, to quote Nicky, "numbers don't lie." Get over it girls.


 


 


If stoner had half the mental fortitude of vale or even Pedrochio, he would still be racing.


 


Vale was the benchmark, then Bridgestone, then Jorge.


How you conflate dissatisfaction with antics, the politics and the field being filled up with ...... CRT bikes - with lack of fortitude - is beyond me. Unlike Dani - Stoner has multiple MotoGp championships and therefore has reason to feel satisfied that he's done what he set out to do. Unlike Rossi - Stoner is not gay, and doesn't suffer from the, hollow, needy, narcissistic compulsion to be in front of the camera. Stoner matured, got married and is raising a family and could give a .... what all the big-talking, macho arm-chair racers think. Apparently his fans and admirers don't much care either.
 
Keshav
3533841370811488

How you conflate dissatisfaction with antics, the politics and the field being filled up with ...... CRT bikes - with lack of fortitude - is beyond me. Unlike Dani - Stoner has multiple MotoGp championships and therefore has reason to feel satisfied that he's done what he set out to do. Unlike Rossi - Stoner is not gay, and doesn't suffer from the, hollow, needy, narcissistic compulsion to be in front of the camera. Stoner matured, got married and is raising a family and could give a .... what all the big-talking, macho arm-chair racers think. Apparently his fans and admirers don't much care either.


 


So why make the effort to post?


If you didn't feel the need to defend him! ;)
 
lil red rocket pilot
3533851370812444

So why make the effort to post?


If you didn't feel the need to defend him! ;)


 


The effort was made to detract.......piss poorly I might add.....
 
Keshav
3533841370811488

How you conflate dissatisfaction with antics, the politics and the field being filled up with ...... CRT bikes - with lack of fortitude - is beyond me. Unlike Dani - Stoner has multiple MotoGp championships and therefore has reason to feel satisfied that he's done what he set out to do. Unlike Rossi - Stoner is not gay, and doesn't suffer from the, hollow, needy, narcissistic compulsion to be in front of the camera. Stoner matured, got married and is raising a family and could give a .... what all the big-talking, macho arm-chair racers think. Apparently his fans and admirers don't much care either.


The field is also filled up with at least 2, maybe 3 of the best riders in the history of the sport.


The rest of the world matured, got married and is raising a family but none of them ( or us) have an opportunity to achieve greatness. Stoner had his opportunity but threw it all away because he never matured. He walked away, giving childish reasons because he is a petulant immature little boy. He became famous at too young of an age and his development was arrested because everyone around him created a false reality. This is common amongst child celebrities. ( see justin beiber). The age they became famous at is the age they can never escape from. He never had to grow up and be a man. He just had to show up, ride fast for a couple laps and cash a gigantic paycheck. Some handle the fame and pressure and some crack. The meltdown we are seeing now from Beiber is amazingly similar to what we saw from Stoner. The world is out to get me but Im all about the music.

The world is out to get me but I just want to ride.

Sound Familar??
 
I still blame my parents to this day for not getting me started in motorsports racing.  I could of been a superstar, given' my dedication, passion, racing spirit, aggression, no holds bar attitude.  I would of decimated the field.


 


Troof !!!  Don't hate. 
 
basspete
3533821370806494

Stoner was a God. Is this the right thread?


 


All I'm seeing is folk crying and pretending that the young guns didn't see Michelin SNS as the benchmark to beat. Get a grip for ..... sake, to quote Nicky, "numbers don't lie." Get over it girls.


 
basspete
3533821370806494

If stoner had half the narcissism of vale or even Pedrochio, he would still be racing. One is getting dusted up by Bautista, the other has blown his candles out 8 ....... times wishing for a premier class title to compensate Honda for their billion dollar midget. 


 


Ducati was the benchmark, then Bridgestone, then Bautista.


 


 


 


Pete, I just corrected a couple of typo's for ya free of charge (I know being Scottish and all if it ain't free you ain't paying anyway!) 
 
So Jums, well written piece BTW. 


 


Your conclusion is what interests me most, and I'll get to that. 


 


Whilst Bridgestone were improving in 2005-06, they were mostly still well and truly not the 'tyre' to be on in those years. The only thing that changed, as we all know was the tyre supply reg in 2007, and hey presto, Michelin's entire strategy-the SNS's (a strategy which dominated the sport for years) was rendered useless. What was interesting is that Dorna removed Michelin's advantage, only to give it to Bridgestone, due to the very nature of the way the companies supplied product. My preference, in a prototype series, is for the best to be on the best, and if that means rubber that's made overnight then so be it. Bridgestone could have done the same in those years, instead they choked Michelin with a reg.......and especially if the alternative is what we now have, which is a series in which 4 entrants have a shot at winning, a horrendous increase in R & D, crewing and manufacturing cost for any maker game to actually participate, of which there are now only 3, 2 of which who are serious. All of this is mostly due to the Sole tyre supplier, and the type and lack of option of product this supplier supplies. Again I personally would like to see Rubber options instead of what we see now, which is Honda bringing umpteenth Chassis options, some of which for all we know could be built over the course of a race weekend.......at least the SNS's were supplied to multiple teams, giving at least 8-10 riders a shot of winning-instead of what we see now 3 or 4. It was Gobermier who recently was most outspoken about this, particularly with the nature of the Bridgestone's. 


 


Back to how this has effected Rossi, well as we know he and his team were the greatest exponents of the SNS's, they've always based their strategy on Race setup, across the entire weekend, which is predominantly why Rossi has always qualified poorly-this continues today. The others at the time, simply weren't as good, despite many of them having SNS's-Colin famously once said he couldn't actually ride on the rubber Rossi was using. The tyre supply regulation in 2007 gave Bridgestone the series, coupled with the fuel limit decrease, spelt the end for Michelin and their entire philosophy. They also dropped the ball with internal issues providing them an easy out in 2008, not even applying for the sole supplier rights. It certainly was no coincidence that Rossi's utter domination was at an end here, he did however go on to win 2 more titles, one of which under the sole supplier rule in 2009.


 


What isn't debated enough here, and elsewhere is the tiny performance envelop the riders have. A classic example is 2008, the updated Bridgestones apparently didn't suit Stoner ( 6 wins tells me otherwise)-same thing in 2012, a simple compound change and Stoner went from utterly dominant, to a distant third place. Much of the blame for the Sole supplier rule is pointed at Rossi, usually by detractors (make of that what you will), when his contact was up with Michelin at the end of the season 2007-moved to Bridgestone, however recent times and the regulations circumvented for certain Spanish entrants and their monstrous Oil Sponsor's tell me that Pedders dummy spit and switch mid-way through 2008 is far more to blame.


 


So if we are to conclude that the rubber on the road, and Rossi's ability to use it, is the main contributing factor to his dominance of the sport during the 990 era, we then must also conclude that Stoner's dominance in 2007 (particularly due to the surprise nature of his dominance that year-and subsequent failure to ever reproduce this on the Ducati) was also mostly down to rubber-and his ability to use it. With the Bridgestone noose tightening evermore post 2009, Honda being what they are grabbed the best rider for the job- outspent, and outnumbered the competition in 2011 to finally grab on 800cc title, only to have this strategy backfire in 2012 and hand the title to Jorge and Yamaha. Stoner's decline in 2008 and 2012, once again is popularly contributed to a change in rubber supply to improve things for the competition, a lot of the proponents of this theory however don't apply the same explanation to Rossi's decline, in this case the competition is better now, Rossi only won because of this or that etc. Rossi's decline in 2007 can be directly attributed to rubber supply with a far more drastic change to the materials than what was 2008 or 2012, even in 2006 when he had two rubber failures during races. Not too mention his failure at Ducati, which as we are now seeing is predominantly due to rubber supply and Ducati's inability to engineer the bike around the tyre, whilst the competition, move on in leaps and bounds year after year. And even Rossi's troubles now with the Yamaha, being such a honed machine to work with the rubber, and Jorge's style, can either be attributed to Rossi never being good enough/not ever a match for the current crop without significant tech advantages or to a lack of rubber which works for Rossi and his machine..........just as with Casey or Jorge in 2011 ;)


 


Therefore 'rubber on the road' didn't just have game changing significance from 2001-2006......all results need to be viewed with the consideration of rubber and how it may or may not work for a particular rider and the competition. 
 
I stopped reading on sentence # 7 when you stated that Bridgestone could have made SNS.

Dude did you realize that it was logistically impossible for Bridgestone to build and ship being a continent away from the Euro rounds which count for most of the schedule. This is what made saturday night specials so special. Noone else COULD pull it off
 
JohnnyKnockdown
3533951370828877

I stopped reading on sentence # 7 when you stated that Bridgestone could have made SNS.

Dude did you realize that it was logistically impossible for Bridgestone to build and ship being a continent away from the Euro rounds which count for most of the schedule. This is what made saturday night specials so special. Noone else COULD pull it off


 


I believe they've always had Europeon Distribution/manufacturing centres 
 
Talpa
3533961370834445

I believe they've always had Europeon Distribution/manufacturing centres 


 


 


The Kobe earthquake in 2010 or 2011??? pretty much flattened Dunlops race tyres, they were all made in Japan. Without doing the research I would guess that Bridgestone are much the same, all their top end stuff is made in house, still a hell of a flight for SNS for any round other than Japan or Malaya really. Even Sepang stretches it.
 
Andy Roo
3533971370836020

The Kobe earthquake in 2010 or 2011??? pretty much flattened Dunlops race tyres, they were all made in Japan. Without doing the research I would guess that Bridgestone are much the same, all their top end stuff is made in house, still a hell of a flight for SNS for any round other than Japan or Malaya really. Even Sepang stretches it.


Kobe was '95 I think. The March 2011 quake had an off shore epicentre.


 


I never knew that Dunlop's Japanese operation had been affected so badly as a result. Most of the footage of destruction focussed on the resultant Tsunami and Fukushima are you saying that it was the economic fall out that crippled operations or due to damage to the plant and associated infrastructure?
 
Arrabbiata1
3534021370848038

Kobe was '95 I think. The March 2011 quake had an off shore epicentre.


 


I never knew that Dunlop's Japanese operation had been affected so badly as a result. Most of the footage of destruction focussed on the resultant Tsunami and Fukushima are you saying that it was the economic fall out that crippled operations or due to damage to the plant and associated infrastructure?


 


Did some quick wiki and google facts. 


 


Sumitomo group is Dunlop Goodyear etc and they are the worlds biggest tyre conglomerate. The groups R & D facility is in Kobe, The R and D facility suffered heavily in the kobe 95 (sorry for the year brainfart) with damage in sales, rebuilding etc in excess of 200 million (USD).


 


The companies race tyres are produced in the facility (close relationship to R & D) 


 


Yokohama also had its motorcycle tyre division in Kobe and the 1995 quake caused them to sell off to Shinko tyres and focus on cars only.   


 


Dunlop went through a period of transferring race tyre manufacturing to other plants in Japan. 


 


http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/19950206/ISSUE/302069958/sumitomo-rubber-regrouping-after-kobe-quake


 


Bridgestone has an R and D facility near Rome but produces its race tyres in Japan.  Actually Bridgestone has 4 R and D facilities around the globe and about 50 manufacturing locations. From their Wiki page and tirebusiness etc.  


 


That is a melding of a number of articles. 


 


They don't do SNS tyres, or can't is more the point. 


 
 

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