Anthony Gobert's wasted 'talent'

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Young's "The Needle And The Damage Done". One of the most heartbreaking commentaries on the whole Rock 'n' Roll heroin thing.



Also a big Stones fan. Seen them live many times. Kieth was a huge style innovator for rock guitarists everywhere and huge influence on me as a player. When I see any concert footage of the Stones from the last 20 years I'm staggered by how badly he and Woody play. Far as I know Woody is still completely strung out too. The contrast between the awful playing from those two and the magnificent fireworks from Jeff Beck who didn't do the drug thing, is staggering.



I've wondered at times if Kieth hadn't been surrounded by a financial cushion and endless sycophants telling him how great he is

- if he would have perhaps got genuinely clean. Guess we'll never know.

I have only seen the stones once, on their most recent world tour, and they were pretty good, particularly mick and charlie.



I thought ronnie's stuff with rod stewart was fantastic, but still don't think he was the best choice to replace mick taylor, being too similar to keith both in habits and as a guitar player.



I saw wayne kramer play with the remnants of the mc5, and he was actually a better player than back in the day when he was a junkie.



Totally off topic, but I don't think the rolling stones themselves or anyone else can re-produce some of their classics such as brown sugar and particularly jumping jack flash live. I am told by a guitar player friend that while seemingly simple they involve unusual tunings etc; perhaps keith has forgotten how he did them originally for the reasons we have been discussing. I remember phil manazanera of roxy music of whom I am also a fan saying it took him 5 years to work out how to play brown sugar.
 
I do think he gets singled out on here, especially when compared to a lot of musical talents who seem to get a free pass when it comes to drugs.



SoD, I do agree that we seem (in this case) to be singling out Gobert and I as an unabashed massive fan of the guy do find it difficult that he is the person often (or near always) dredged up when discussions oft he nature occur, and yes I do get very drustrated at the constant and derogatory nature in which he is discussed because of his addictions and his stupidity in what he did to feed them. But the simple fact is he did the crime and as such he should do the time, but no, he is not alone in wasting such a high level of unique talent and sadly it is an issue that will continue as sport stops being sport and becomes business.



The reason I feel that we do not discuss musicians and the like in similar terms is that it is more 'accepted' that musicians not be perfect, yet for some reason we expect and some may well say demand the ultimate professionalism from our sports people. There are numerous stories of musicians and actors committing crimes or assaults but we all seem to go, 'ah yeah, but ...........' yet when it comes to sports people and indescretions we seem to immediately want to dumpe and emonise (Tiger Woods another example - different issue).



For me I do see distinct double and sometimes a triple standard that is applied between the people in the public arena and all to sadly we, that same public often forget that these people are human and like us they sometimes need help, guidance and assistance else they lose their way. Whilst no doubt there are many around who could care less we again this past week had the suicide of the retired US athlete and one must wonder strongly about the support base that exists around professional sport for those with issues.



In Australia and employer has a duty of care to their employee and to me, as a contracted athlete you are employed and as such shoudl receive a duty of care from that employer. In the case of Gobert from what I have been told, that duty of care was not always present (the best being provided by one of his US based Ducati teams). It is also one of the reasone why I feel that today we often over'berate the likes of Puig, Mary Spies etc who perhaps play a far more important role that we do truly realise as the temptations for these athlets, both legal and illegal are huge.



But again, and before people think is is justification, the simple fact is that Anthony Gobert is yet to admit he needs help, or ask for help and I do know that people want to provide it and help him before he makes that mistake and ends up ending his, or another life.
 
Tis just plain sad this story. I sympathize with both sides of the argument. Addiction is very tough, and one cannot place enough value on those who overcome it, or never delve there to start with. But everyone is different, and in Gobert's case, his values are far different to what his employers, fans and the public expect from him.



Thankfully when I think of Ant Gobert, the first thing that springs to mind are those two-wheel slides into Honda hairpin-PI 1996 on the ZX-7R........
 
Kesh, sorry man, but you are being way to PC on this.

Addicts are not born as addicts. They fucken choose to do what they do, in full knowledge of the consequences, and then aren't not willing to take responsibility for the consequences when it all goes to .....

I don't know Gobert, never met him, but have known people who I think are similar.



If Gobert wasn't an insanely talented bike rider, and he was just some drug addicted bum in NYC and rolled your elderly nana (or mother) for drug money, or broke in to your house, would you still be saying 'its not his fault he's an addict'. .... no !!!



Look, don't get me wrong, we'd all like to be partying like rock stars, and doing lines of coke of strippers ....., BUT, most people don't (or the ones that do know where to draw the line).

This silly prick didn't know were to stop, and it screwed up his life. Ok, but take responsibility for your actions, and try to sort your .... out. What has Gobert done about it since...... ????

Far as I know, nothing. Still a bum.



Terrible waste of a very talented life, but no more so than thousands of other people. Only reason we know about AG is because he could ride a bike OK, and that is not a free ticket to respect.

No sympathy from me, sorry.
 
You make the common mistake that most people do. You believe these people take drugs because they are bad.

The opposite is true.



You make the common mistake that most people do. You believe these people are bad because they take drugs.



I know a lot of drug takers. A lot of serious drug takers. The bad are bad, the rest are human. Whether they were on the gear or not.



The bad, the real criminals, are the governments that ignore evidence, that ignore the needs of their society, that pander to the mores of another government which is itself living a lie perpetuated by a 'moral' belief that has been discounted time and again.



And for what? To persecute, imprison, marginalise those in society we should be helping and nurturing.



Sorry, drug or no drug doesn't make someone good, bad or indifferent.
 
You make the common mistake that most people do. You believe these people are bad because they take drugs.



I know a lot of drug takers. A lot of serious drug takers. The bad are bad, the rest are human. Whether they were on the gear or not.



The bad, the real criminals, are the governments that ignore evidence, that ignore the needs of their society, that pander to the mores of another government which is itself living a lie perpetuated by a 'moral' belief that has been discounted time and again.



And for what? To persecute, imprison, marginalise those in society we should be helping and nurturing.



Sorry, drug or no drug doesn't make someone good, bad or indifferent.

Taking drugs is often bad for you though, particularly the legal ones, alcohol and nicotine. Narcotics don't do much bad to you physically, except that no tolerance develops for the respiratory depressant effect. Most of the nasty physical health effects come from what the stuff is cut with, or unhygienic practices associated with the use of the drugs, which also increases the overall incidence of nasty blood borne viruses, so the campaigners against "pandering" to drug use by needle exchange programs etc are not even acting in their own self interest.
 
Like Gilles Villeneuves, he haven't even achieved much in his career





.... me! You're an ignorant prick, aren't you? And it was Villeneuve.



Yeah, never achieved much at all.



How many Canadian Formula Ford, US Formula Atlantic championships? How many Snowmobile titles? How many race wins and podiums? What was it - 5 years as Ferrari's number one driver?



Please, enumerate your achievements...



You do spend a lot of time talking out of your arse.
 
Anecdotally people who are involved in drug and alcohol counselling etc professionally seem to find the narcotic addicts in particular unpleasant to deal with also.



Having been one of those professionals... sorry, you're wrong. For every bunch of junkies I have met, they are all different, just like everyone else in society.



In fact, alcoholics are particularly difficult to deal with. They are unashamed of their addiction, they will lie and cheat and steal and hurt everyone around them - sound familiar? No different to narcotics abusers.



Within the various narcotics addicts, there are noticeable patterns of behaviour. Anecdotally, I would rather give my kids top bunk to a heroin junkie than allow a crackhead to sleep in my garden shed.



When my kids were little, we spent the night at the zoo on a school field trip. One of the guys that spent the evening with us was one of the big cat keepers. He made the comment that if the tigers got loose, he would jump the fence into the lion enclosure rather than be out in the open. They are so unpredictable that even after being their keeper for ten years, he would never turn his back on one.



Meth/Crackheads are similar.



It isn't their fault. It's the drug. Although it takes a bit of work to get addicted. Heroin takes a LOT of work to become addicted - you've really got to get stuck into it.



But, all of them are addicted - they weren't born that way - and if they want to, they can get off. The hardest part is getting them to break the pattern of association. If you can get them away from their social comfort zone you have a chance, but asking someone to give up family and friends is a big ask.
 
Having been one of those professionals... sorry, you're wrong. For every bunch of junkies I have met, they are all different, just like everyone else in society.



In fact, alcoholics are particularly difficult to deal with. They are unashamed of their addiction, they will lie and cheat and steal and hurt everyone around them - sound familiar? No different to narcotics abusers.



Within the various narcotics addicts, there are noticeable patterns of behaviour. Anecdotally, I would rather give my kids top bunk to a heroin junkie than allow a crackhead to sleep in my garden shed.



When my kids were little, we spent the night at the zoo on a school field trip. One of the guys that spent the evening with us was one of the big cat keepers. He made the comment that if the tigers got loose, he would jump the fence into the lion enclosure rather than be out in the open. They are so unpredictable that even after being their keeper for ten years, he would never turn his back on one.



Meth/Crackheads are similar.



It isn't their fault. It's the drug. Although it takes a bit of work to get addicted. Heroin takes a LOT of work to become addicted - you've really got to get stuck into it.



But, all of them are addicted - they weren't born that way - and if they want to, they can get off. The hardest part is getting them to break the pattern of association. If you can get them away from their social comfort zone you have a chance, but asking someone to give up family and friends is a big ask.

We are basically in agreement, I totally agree that the criminalisation/moralistic approach is wrong, and one of my major points of argument on this thread has been that the difference in attitude to "legal"drugs vs illegal ones is hypocritical and not logically based. Certainly vastly more health and social problems are caused by legal drugs, including domestic violence and car crashes.
 
I remember phil manazanera of roxy music of whom I am also a fan saying it took him 5 years to work out how to play brown sugar.



One of the most underrated (by the general public) musicians of his era, IMO.



I count my attendance at one of the 801 concerts as a high point in over 40 years of listening and working with musicians.
 
Please, enumerate your achievements...



You do spend a lot of time talking out of your arse.



Urm, he chickened out of a Superkart race that HE challenged ME to once....so his achievements are little...just like his balls.
 
So would I - those things are ....... mental. I managed to spin about ten times in one lap... I think there were 12 or so corners...
<




Some of those spins happened in a straight line, though... I'm not a complete waster
<
 
One of the most underrated (by the general public) musicians of his era, IMO.



I count my attendance at one of the 801 concerts as a high point in over 40 years of listening and working with musicians.

As it happens I bought a new vinyl edition of the 801 live record today. Never saw them, but have seen him with Roxy Music, including in Sydney on the relatively recent tour with paul thompson back on drums and a cute female violinist who was just as good as eddie jobson.
 
I think it was actually in Sydney that I first saw Manzanera - I think it was with Stomo Yamashta and Steve Winwood - GO was the name of the 'band'. He wasn't a member as such, but was roped in to do a couple of tracks... I'll have to dig it out...



I might be wrong...
 
So would I - those things are ....... mental. I managed to spin about ten times in one lap... I think there were 12 or so corners...
<




Some of those spins happened in a straight line, though... I'm not a complete waster
<



Thats why girls dont play the game
<
 
You make the common mistake that most people do. You believe these people are bad because they take drugs.



I know a lot of drug takers. A lot of serious drug takers. The bad are bad, the rest are human. Whether they were on the gear or not.



The bad, the real criminals, are the governments that ignore evidence, that ignore the needs of their society, that pander to the mores of another government which is itself living a lie perpetuated by a 'moral' belief that has been discounted time and again.



And for what? To persecute, imprison, marginalise those in society we should be helping and nurturing.



Sorry, drug or no drug doesn't make someone good, bad or indifferent.



Drugs do make decent people behave badly. Crack in particular. I don't literally mean that a person takes a drug and Voila! becomes the antichrist.

But people who never stole or prostituted themselves before regularly do so in order to feed their habits. That is undeniable.



Also... it should be clear; not all drug takers are addicts. There is a large segment of humanity that are capable of using drugs in a recreational fashion.

Addicts are a whole other breed.
 
I don't see how Gobert's ability at racing a motorbike has any relevance in this discussion. Everyone is good at something, and everyone has the potential to be happy. It is sad when anyone gets caught up in something like serious addiction, whether it is legal/socially acceptable or not, unfortunately this can easily lead to crime. I appreciate that we on this forum are more interested in the case of Gobert because he is did something that we have a passion for, but in the greater scheme of things going from a world class bike rider to a drug addict is no greater shame than any other person who goes down the same unpleasant route.



I disagree. I tend to see the world through the lens of oportunity (losses and gains), and Gobert's loss was far greater than the loss of "someone else". Gobert had the riding skills to inspire and entertain millions of people, and he had the ability to earn millions for himself, his employer, and the sport's organizers. Economic growth sounds trivial, but those profits, if properly employed, eventually become well-being for other people and society at large. Instead of creating a charity foundation for elderly pensioners and underprivileged youth, Gobert is robbing pensioners. The loss is immense. Motorcycle racing and economic productivity are not an egalitarian affairs, thus, grafting egalitarian moralism onto Anthony Gobert's career does not mitigate the actual loss.



I do think moral philosophy is part of Gobert's demise, but the philosophy moral governance pertains to the FIM drug testing policies, which ultimately started Gobert down the slippery slope to societal pariah. The FIM adopted a drug policy that made no improvements to the sport (spectacle, profit, or safety). On the contrary, the hardline policy regarding marijuana usage put the sport in a position to suffer. The FIM should have explained to the fans, sponsors, teams, and television personnel the realities of hiring imperfect individuals, the purpose of drug testing policy, and the need for policy reform. Instead, the FIM simply burned Gobert at the stake b/c it was convenient, and the rules created the illusion that the FIM had the moral high ground. There was no reason to dismiss Gobert. No moral paradigm compelled his dismissal b/c no one else had been injured or wronged. No economic paradigm compelled Gobert's dismissal b/c he could not be replaced. Perhaps, insurance costs could be quoted, but then, those costs could easily have been put directly on Gobert himself. Perhaps the economics of insurance would have taught him to steer clear of weed.



But the real problem, imo, is much bigger than Gobert or WSBK. Individuals are taught personnel responsibility in all situaitons b/c it is the only way. We simply can't sit around and wait on decency from our fellow human beings. We take our lumps and we move on, hopefully without a massive chip on our shoulder. Unfortunately, I feel that the doctrine of personal responsibility encourages society to affirm the consequent. Gobert must be held 100% repsonsible for his actions; therefore, the FIM must not be to blame. Nothing could be farther from reality. Gobert is held 100% accountable b/c that is best for Gobert, but the FIM clearly had policies that put the sport and its competitors in jeopardy. The FIM chopped down a Redwood tree to harvest the lumber or they cut a channel in the Great Barrier Reef to make a better beach break (or whatever analogy you like). Why? B/c they created rules that served rulesmakers, not a greater good. This is a theme as old as human history. Jesus vs. the Pharisees. The English peasants vs. King John (Magna Carta). Thousands more examples could be listed.



A man's career was ruined b/c he was convicted of a victimless crime. The employment decisions of a multinational corporation were usurped by a not-for-profit club. For sport, Gobert now robs pensioners, rather than racing motorcycles. The FIM look the other way as if they never even knew him, and they pretend that nothing great has been lost. I find that kind of cowardice and short-sightedness from leadership personnel to be far more detestable than Gobert's apparent lack of self-control. If Gobert can lose everything b/c he failed in his abstract repsonsibilities to society, the FIM personnel should be held to the same standard. That's the egalitarian equity that is lacking in the story of Anthony Gobert.
 
I do think moral philosophy is part of Gobert's demise, but the philosophy moral governance pertains to the FIM drug testing policies, which ultimately started Gobert down the slippery slope to societal pariah. The FIM adopted a drug policy that made no improvements to the sport (spectacle, profit, or safety). On the contrary, the hardline policy regarding marijuana usage put the sport in a position to suffer. The FIM should have explained to the fans, sponsors, teams, and television personnel the realities of hiring imperfect individuals, the purpose of drug testing policy, and the need for policy reform. Instead, the FIM simply burned Gobert at the stake b/c it was convenient, and the rules created the illusion that the FIM had the moral high ground. There was no reason to dismiss Gobert. No moral paradigm compelled his dismissal b/c no one else had been injured or wronged. No economic paradigm compelled Gobert's dismissal b/c he could not be replaced. Perhaps, insurance costs could be quoted, but then, those costs could easily have been put directly on Gobert himself. Perhaps the economics of insurance would have taught him to steer clear of weed.



But the real problem, imo, is much bigger than Gobert or WSBK. Individuals are taught personnel responsibility in all situaitons b/c it is the only way. We simply can't sit around and wait on decency from our fellow human beings. We take our lumps and we move on, hopefully without a massive chip on our shoulder. Unfortunately, I feel that the doctrine of personal responsibility encourages society to affirm the consequent. Gobert must be held 100% repsonsible for his actions; therefore, the FIM must not be to blame. Nothing could be farther from reality. Gobert is held 100% accountable b/c that is best for Gobert, but the FIM clearly had policies that put the sport and its competitors in jeopardy. The FIM chopped down a Redwood tree to harvest the lumber or they cut a channel in the Great Barrier Reef to make a better beach break (or whatever analogy you like). Why? B/c they created rules that served rulesmakers, not a greater good. This is a theme as old as human history. Jesus vs. the Pharisees. The English peasants vs. King John (Magna Carta). Thousands more examples could be listed.



A man's career was ruined b/c he was convicted of a victimless crime. The employment decisions of a multinational corporation were usurped by a not-for-profit club. For sport, Gobert now robs pensioners, rather than racing motorcycles. The FIM look the other way as if they never even knew him, and they pretend that nothing great has been lost. I find that kind of cowardice and short-sightedness from leadership personnel to be far more detestable than Gobert's apparent lack of self-control. If Gobert can lose everything b/c he failed in his abstract repsonsibilities to society, the FIM personnel should be held to the same standard. That's the egalitarian equity that is lacking in the story of Anthony Gobert.

I agree.



It is obviously reasonable for FIM to have a policy against riders riding under the influence of marijuana, alcohol etc, or performance enhancing drugs if such exist for bike racing. The teams themselves can reasonably expect their riders not to partake of drugs to an extent that detracts from their performance, and I imagine this is at least implied in their contracts.



Whether someone has indulged in recreational marijuana use in the last 3 months which is what testing for that drug discerns has not got much to do with anything imo, and I can't see that it is the role of sporting organisations to enforce moral paradigms, particularly in regard to victimless crimes, as you say.
 

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