How much does it cost to get a ride - Aussie perspectives

Richy56 said:

I know lads who didn't have raise any cash other than the entry to race super teens. The grids are only half full at best

It's a club series, granted thundersport is the biggest club but it's not anything more. You might get the odd bsb rider or roads rider to use them as practice events but that's it.

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I do too, but that depends on whether you want to live in someone else's pocket.

Jumkie said:

Excellent posts Hollywood.

Lil Red, I know you helped sponsor Rory, how's he doing?

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

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He had a ..... start to the season mate.
First CEV race got caught up in someone else's accident and broke his wrist.
Assen he was getting back to form in the Rookies race one he was in third battling for second when I think Toba or Saskia highsided right in front of him, had nowhere to got and collected his bike, Race two he got a third, first podium of the season, Lets see what Sachsenring will brimg

Jumkie said:

Excellent posts Hollywood.

Lil Red, I know you helped sponsor Rory, how's he doing?

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

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BTW did you catch up with Benito35 over the weekend?
Hows he doing these days?

JPSLotus said:

I think if you have any interest in 2-wheel racing, you have to know GP is the absolute pinnacle. I'm not big into MX/SX personally. I will watch it here and there, but give me road course racing over dirt track racing any time of the week. It's a great training tool for any rider wishing to go places in road course racing. None of the MX/SX riders are household names by any stretch of the imagination. You know them if you follow it, but you aren't going to know of these guys otherwise because they are towards the bottom of the totem pole in America's sporting world. Their pay reflects it as well. The average person unfamiliar with motor racing is going to be more aware of any of the NASCAR drivers than any other motor racer period. The days of non-NASCAR racers being household names are long gone. Michael Andretti and Al Unser Jr. might have been the last of that group, and more because of the last name than anything.

I don't know, if the option for me was chasing glory on dirt in America, or chasing glory on tarmac globally in GP, I'd go for the latter always. But that is me.

Keep in mind, Wayne Rainey switched to road course racing because he was struggling to win in dirt track racing. There's no guarantee being good at dirt will translate over. Yes some of the best came from dirt backgrounds, but we only ever hear about the success stories. Had Wayne Rainey stuck it out instead of switching to AMA Superbike, it's unlikely anyone would know who he is today.

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Given the sheer number of TV programs and radio announcements for coliseum-filling MX and SX event here in the US - I reckon that's where the money is for young riders as opposed to say flat track racing, which is the ghetto of two wheeled racing. MX and SX have a very wide appeal across a spectrum of blue collar and middle class Americans and the fan base is is huge. Personally - it bores me because it seems more like something that should be run as a sideshow at a carnival as opposed an elite class of racing on prototype machines. But I suspect that the dirt racers who make great money from endorsement are equally indifferent to MotoGp. And while riders in say AMA Superbike can't help but be aware of the glamor and prestige that goes with MotoGp, I think they largely see it as an non-obtainable goal. Having raced the AMA CCS series which was run concurrent with the Camel Pro series weekends, I can tell you that for the most part the participants are largely provincial in the their worldview and don't have ambitions to race outside of the USA. They're quite happy to play in their own backyard. Remember how hard it was to get Spies to go to Europe? A lot of that of course has to do with what many here have already said, ie; the deck is stacked against them in Europe because of all the advantages given there via all the well funded feeder series.

lil red rocket pilot said:

BTW did you catch up with Benito35 over the weekend?
Hows he doing these days?

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Yeah, he was in good spirits. Finished P5 in race.

lil red rocket pilot said:

He had a ..... start to the season mate.
First CEV race got caught up in someone else's accident and broke his wrist.
Assen he was getting back to form in the Rookies race one he was in third battling for second when I think Toba or Saskia highsided right in front of him, had nowhere to got and collected his bike, Race two he got a third, first podium of the season, Lets see what Sachsenring will brimg

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Thanks for update. Sounds like a lot of bad luck. Let's hope he's got that out of the way buddy.

birdman said:

IMO the top talented kids in the US aspire to win MX/SX rather than chase relatively unknown motogp and I don't blame them. This is the series that gets not only the attention of Europe but the world, every MX rider aspires to be there. I've always had a keen interest obviously with Aussie riders getting plenty of opportunities. It would be interesting to see what the likes Villopoto/Stewart/Dungey etc would achieve if they switched to road racing early, I suspect they would be the Rainey's, Lawsons, Spencers of today. Whats your take, does the fame and fortune of MX In the US dwarf motoVR, are these guys household names or is Rossi just as popular over there?

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I don't have exact figures, maybe someone can find, but I remember (don't quote me, I'm forgetting where I leave shoes) a few years back season attendance for both SX & MX over a year was over a million (SX 800K, MX 200K) . I don't think AMA Roadracing has got that over a decade combined.

In SoCal we have 5 SX races, 3 in Anaheim, 1 in San Diego, 1 in LA, the stadiums sell out. MX has 2, well attended.

I've often wondered if the a few of the top guys crossed over to RR how might they fair. Make no mistake, the SX/MX riders are thee most talented & fit two-wheel racers period. The ones who reach the top are from a much greater pool trying to reach the top. The amateur series is a war zone.

birdman said:

Im not talking about you or I as mature age. I'm talking future racers. Think grassroots, 5 year old kids. What would they more likely be exposed to, the MX/SX scene or Motogp? Who would they dream to emulate, Bubba Stewart or Nicky Hayden? What can parents in the US actually access in junior racing, dirt bikes or road circuit?

If its anything like my childhood, the first object that ever really captured my attention was not a footy or cricket bat it was a crappy old mini bike in the shed with nobby tires.

From there it was meeting other kids on crappy bikes. So I can really relate to the childhoods of the Raineys, Lawsons, Stoners. It was also no big deal for my old man to hook up a trailer and take us to the local MX track. First time I saw an MX race as a kid it blew my mind like nothing I've seen since.

That's our culture. Jumkie mentioned des Nations. Its obvious USA has world class talent. Its just they aren't riding road bikes. When you have to mortage the house just to get a slight chance at the dream maybe that's not such a bad thing. I honestly see the US MX/SX as a superior series in determining talent.

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Absolutely! Spot on. See my above post. You can go pick up a beater MX for your kid on the change you find underneath the lazy boy. When my kid was 4 my buddy came over on his bday and gave him his son's old KDX50. I offered him money, he said nah, just pass it along when he's done with it. Which I did, to my nephew. I go out to the desert, there are countless kids putting around on MX bikes. To see kids on RR bikes, you have to go to the track. The dad has to be very committed to do it. Where as MX is a family camping trip. To find a RR bike for a 4-5 year old is a mission.

At all the SX races, during intermission there is a peewee KTM race. 3-4 year olds 'racing'. Yes, racing already. A dad sees that, goes home, buys his kid a 50cc. The kids see that, dad, buy me a bike. I've been watching RR with my boys, never have they told me, dad, buy me a CBR, or Ninja. They know the name Nicky Hayden since they could speak, make no mistake, probably was their first word, but they see RR as something only for special athletes. They watch the peewee in a stadium pack with 50K people at Dodgers Stadium, they wanted a bike.

Imagine what that translates into in terms of talent pool in a nation of 350M. So the kids that get to the top of a 20 racer main event are sometimes special. The last guy to qual for a main even was in the top riders for a respective heat race. It's supper competitive.

Jumkie said:

Fair enough, not "household names" then, but not many are in any sport for that matter. You could name 99.99% of NBA, I wouldn't recognize any. The top top guy is known because often they cross over into popular culture. "Household name" is very exclusive then. In other words if you were to name 100% of NBA players to my wife for example, she would recognize zero. Household names, this standard might be made in singular events, like Olympics, TMZ, World Farce, etc. Like you say, Donovan. Nobody follows MLS, but when Beckham was here they had heard of him.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

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Your wife doesn't know Michael Jordan?

I think generally speaking about sports, there are plenty of athletes who are household names where if you follow the news on any level, it's impossible to not have some semblance of who they are even if you are not interested in the sport. Now that soccer is getting bigger in the US, I would feel comfortable saying the two biggest household names globally in sports are Lio Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Beckham is still known, but more because of the Hollywood celeb environment than anything else.

birdman said:

Im not talking about you or I as mature age. I'm talking future racers. Think grassroots, 5 year old kids. What would they more likely be exposed to, the MX/SX scene or Motogp? Who would they dream to emulate, Bubba Stewart or Nicky Hayden? What can parents in the US actually access in junior racing, dirt bikes or road circuit?

If its anything like my childhood, the first object that ever really captured my attention was not a footy or cricket bat it was a crappy old mini bike in the shed with nobby tires.

From there it was meeting other kids on crappy bikes. So I can really relate to the childhoods of the Raineys, Lawsons, Stoners. It was also no big deal for my old man to hook up a trailer and take us to the local MX track. First time I saw an MX race as a kid it blew my mind like nothing I've seen since.

That's our culture. Jumkie mentioned des Nations. Its obvious USA has world class talent. Its just they aren't riding road bikes. When you have to mortage the house just to get a slight chance at the dream maybe that's not such a bad thing. I honestly see the US MX/SX as a superior series in determining talent.

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Dirt bikes will definitely capture the imagination first. I wanted a dirt bike when I was a kid, one parent said no, that was the end of that. Dirt bikes are the starting point for most everyone otherwise. Endless places to ride that don't cost anything more than fuel, riding gear, and general maintenance.

Maybe it's not a bad thing that they are riding dirt bikes now, but I think it is personally. But that's purely because of my POV that I would rather watch road racing any day of the week over MX/SX. As a participant, MX/SX is far more accessible than any road racing even as an adult due to costs of operating the machines. Sadly it's not going to get any cheaper to race road machines ever.

JPSLotus said:

Your wife doesn't know Michael Jordan?

I think generally speaking about sports, there are plenty of athletes who are household names where if you follow the news on any level, it's impossible to not have some semblance of who they are even if you are not interested in the sport. Now that soccer is getting bigger in the US, I would feel comfortable saying the two biggest household names globally in sports are Lio Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Beckham is still known, but more because of the Hollywood celeb environment than anything else.

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Haha, my elderly mom has heard of Jordan. I don't know why I thought you meant current players. So yeah wifey has heard of a few of the greats.

Agree about the celeb aspect. I know the Kardashians have made a few NBA players famous...

lil red rocket pilot said:

That depends on if you want to keep it at the end of the season, His Dad has a bike sales and repair servicing etc shop.
It's nice to go in there and see the collection of championship winning bikes
However I do believe they have leased the bike this season to help finance the red bull rookies and CEV although RSF are helping a lot with the CEV.

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why keep the bike at the end of the season? the bike is only good for one class of racing... my entire racing career I always leased. I watched some of the guys that owned their cars in the IMSA series and it requires full time mechanics just to keep the car going all season.

Jumkie said:

I've often wondered if the a few of the top guys crossed over to RR how might they fair. Make no mistake, the SX/MX riders are thee most talented & fit two-wheel racers period. The ones who reach the top are from a much greater pool trying to reach the top. The amateur series is a war zone.

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I think now with the move to 4 strokes its obviously stacked in favor of Europe or more specifically Spain. So like others have said the cross over seams less a factor of skills than it is $$$$ backing.

Back when it was 500cc two stroke, well there was no way to prepare anyone to ride that evil thing was there? Might as well come from dirt, obviously dirt track, I think Doohan and Schwantz rode MX. In fact the gist of it seams to be the guys who raced anything and everything did better on 500s than Europeans who raced more strictly wheels in line small capacity road racers.

Didn't Schwantz ride Trials?
I seem to recall suggestions that it was the source of his throttle control.

JPSLotus said:

Dirt bikes will definitely capture the imagination first. I wanted a dirt bike when I was a kid, one parent said no, that was the end of that. Dirt bikes are the starting point for most everyone otherwise. Endless places to ride that don't cost anything more than fuel, riding gear, and general maintenance.

Maybe it's not a bad thing that they are riding dirt bikes now, but I think it is personally. But that's purely because of my POV that I would rather watch road racing any day of the week over MX/SX. As a participant, MX/SX is far more accessible than any road racing even as an adult due to costs of operating the machines. Sadly it's not going to get any cheaper to race road machines ever.

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The one thing road racing has over MX is speed. The need for speed, theres no doubt about it, Im as addicted as anyone.

Banging through the grearbox of an MXer and topping out at what, 50 mph? Its not particularly exciting on flat ground or asphalt. banging through the gears on any sportsbike, oh yeah!

Still I see the dirt bike as the ultimate 2 wheel design. The reason why, when it comes to circuit racing, 2 wheels offers no advantage, 4 wheels is simply faster.

But MX, its based on natural terrain, make that gnarly terrain. Forget 4 wheels, there aint nothing else designed that can go faster or even get around when theres jumps and drop - offs. Bikes can basically go where nothing else can, then race around it.

Talking whether GP are aware of SX, they definitely are, I know Stoner obviously know Villopoto well, also Dani went to SX. I dont think they are just being polite when they say they come away more than impressed. The thing is you really need to stand there in front of a triple jump ramp to appreciate its insane, its basically a huge wall that practically goes vertical and any sane person would never attempt to jump it, its hard enough just to ride over it. Then think these guys have the throttle absolutely pinned with a minute margin for error, both on the triples and the whoops. .... the whoops are probably bigger than Dani Pedrosa is.

So yeah while speed is a big thing I reckon I could manage to get a GP bike around a track, even pin the throttle on the straight, appreciate the speed. But an SX track, .... no would'nt attempt it, which I'm guessing is the same impression the GP riders get when they see it.

birdman said:

The one thing road racing has over MX is speed. The need for speed, theres no doubt about it, Im as addicted as anyone.

Banging through the grearbox of an MXer and topping out at what, 50 mph? Its not particularly exciting on flat ground or asphalt. banging through the gears on any sportsbike, oh yeah!

Still I see the dirt bike as the ultimate 2 wheel design. The reason why, when it comes to circuit racing, 2 wheels offers no advantage, 4 wheels is simply faster.

But MX, its based on natural terrain, make that gnarly terrain. Forget 4 wheels, there aint nothing else designed that can go faster or even get around when theres jumps and drop - offs. Bikes can basically go where nothing else can, then race around it.

Talking whether GP are aware of SX, they definitely are, I know Stoner obviously know Villopoto well, also Dani went to SX. I dont think they are just being polite when they say they come away more than impressed. The thing is you really need to stand there in front of a triple jump ramp to appreciate its insane, its basically a huge wall that practically goes vertical and any sane person would never attempt to jump it, its hard enough just to ride over it. Then think these guys have the throttle absolutely pinned with a minute margin for error, both on the triples and the whoops. .... the whoops are probably bigger than Dani Pedrosa is.

So yeah while speed is a big thing I reckon I could manage to get a GP bike around a track, even pin the throttle on the straight, appreciate the speed. But an SX track, .... no would'nt attempt it, which I'm guessing is the same impression the GP riders get when they see it.

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Well I think the ultimate comparison would be the UK road racing events like IOM, Ulster, Southern, etc. Frankly, that is the epitome of being bat .... insane, and SX with all of its batshit jumps cannot come close to the idea of riding down public roads in excess of 200MPH with every wall, light post, telephone pole, tree, and so on just sitting there ready to knock the life right out of your body. But either way, both receive major props.

While 4 wheels is always going to be the quickest around the circuit assuming the car is built to do it, it's not always about how quickly you get around the circuit as some series get mistakenly hung up on. It's about creating a product that when consumed, creates a visceral impression that cannot be replicated by anything. Whether it's triple jumps on a dirt bike or Casey Stoner in his prime drifting a bike at 160MPH, it's about seeing something that you cannot yourself do being done.

That riding a GP bike, any of us can do without trouble compared to going around a SX track, is certainly true. But it's not the right comparison as the real comparison would be riding a GP bike on the limit. It's something perhaps a dozen men on the planet can do with the consistency of a metronome. Pinning the throttle on the straight? Would you be willing to pin it at Mugello knowing you are going to be hitting 225MPH before the braking zone? Hell, even getting within 10MPH of Michael Dunlop's IOM record 133MPH lap would be impossible for any one of us.

Mind you I'm not disparaging SX or anything of that nature. I just feel to ride a GP bike, or road racing bike at the limit is just as difficult, if not so more difficult especially since we forget how razor thin the margins actually are even in GP. Look at Loris Baz who suffered that tire blowout at Sepang at 180MPH. The bike went sideways, and he was lucky to not be killed. In GP right now, you have to worry about the construct of the tires as you are trying to push the machine to it's engineering limits. Think of how ...... up that is. SX doesn't see .... like that going on.

birdman said:

I think now with the move to 4 strokes its obviously stacked in favor of Europe or more specifically Spain. So like others have said the cross over seams less a factor of skills than it is $$$$ backing.

Back when it was 500cc two stroke, well there was no way to prepare anyone to ride that evil thing was there? Might as well come from dirt, obviously dirt track, I think Doohan and Schwantz rode MX. In fact the gist of it seams to be the guys who raced anything and everything did better on 500s than Europeans who raced more strictly wheels in line small capacity road racers.

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Dirt background was definitely more beneficial during the 500cc era because it was the only way to get the throttle control necessary to ride the 500cc machines. But even at that, there was still a hell of a learning curve for anyone who got onto a 500cc machine. Took Rainey a couple of years to learn how to ride the bikes. Actually, King Kenny was the only one to come and start winning on them.

Mx/Sx is the purest form of riding. You dont get a sense of it until you see it live. An mx bike is out of shape 99% of the time on a surface that is constantly changing.
Road racing is more about absolute focus and precision

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Mx/Sx is the purest form of riding. You dont get a sense of it until you see it live. An mx bike is out of shape 99% of the time on a surface that is constantly changing.
Road racing is more about absolute focus and precision

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Agree you have to fit as .... to ride at a decent level of MX.

Where as on the roads you can be fast as .... and slightly fat. John mcguiness is the perfect example.

Personally for me what I love about GP racing is the precision. Those guys can hit the same piece of Tarmac every lap which I just think is awesome at those speeds

I think on short circuits you need to be little, when somebody like Valentino Rossi is considered big for a GP racer it shows how small these guys are, he's only 10 stone, compare that to a road racer like Michael Dunlop who weighs 14 stone, huge difference.