How much does it cost to get a ride - Aussie perspectives

Gaz · Jul 8, 2016

JPSLotus said:
It doesn't always come to talent however.

Fans only assume it does because when they see people like Stoner, Lorenzo, or whomever else at the top, they think somehow merit has carried the day. I don't buy that for a second. Arrab has mentioned a number of times on here if the bikes were truly equal, a lot of people would be very surprised with who would actually be at the top.

True and agreed to a degree as whilst dollars may buy the ride, or at least open the door if one is a talentless gimp that door or other doors will close just as quickly as the dollars opened them (there will always be extremely wealthy exceptions).

In Australia, the vast majority of riders cannot make a living from racing alone as the scene is not that wealthy, and whilst that may seem like a perfect environment to buy a ride it actually seems to work the opposite as the teams need the talent to get results, get the recognition and then comes the ever small corporate dollars.

Arrib is not alone with the comment either as I have said the same many times that whilst we look at those that have achieved, how many of the 'also rans' could achieve were they afforded the opportunity. Facts are that we do not know and really, never will know for sure as these riders will not get the opportunity as when it comes to the top, it is not so much the dollars that you bring to buy the ride but the dollars that follow and are attracted to that bike/team because of you.

Sport is business and business is sport, thus dollars rule (unfortunately)

GOAT · Jul 11, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Yes, let's trust Briatore, a man who was convicted of fraud.

A spec series is only flawed if the participants keep the equipment with them. If they only get to touch the equipment under supervision of officials, and cannot travel with the bike/car, it's a whole different ball game. Where there is a will, there is a way. Mind you I'm not advocating for top series to be spec necessarily, just that if the desire is to establish a true meritocracy, it can be done with hard work and effort with the input of the governing bodies of the respective race series.

For example, NASCAR, at any restrictor plate race, NASCAR officials distribute the plates at random, and then install the plate on the car. Crew chiefs are not allowed to ever touch the restrictor plate. Teams also work in open garages so everyone can see what you are doing and nothing is hidden away the way it is in WEC, GP, or F1.

It sure would be interesting if it ever came to that.

However, even if all the riders were racing on the exact same bike, I think it still wouldn't be fair. How would the bikes be developed? How much autonomy will the technicians be given in terms of bike setup?

Take Marquez and Pedrosa for example. I believe Dani's bike isn't that much different from Marquez's. But since the engineers have developed the bike in Marquez's favour, Dani's having a pretty hard time at the moment.

JPSLotus · Jul 12, 2016

GOAT said:
It sure would be interesting if it ever came to that.

However, even if all the riders were racing on the exact same bike, I think it still wouldn't be fair. How would the bikes be developed? How much autonomy will the technicians be given in terms of bike setup?

Take Marquez and Pedrosa for example. I believe Dani's bike isn't that much different from Marquez's. But since the engineers have developed the bike in Marquez's favour, Dani's having a pretty hard time at the moment.

I wasn't advocating a spec series for top tier series. Just primarily for feeder series if the goal is to try and get the best talent to the MotoGP grid.

The trouble with motor racing at large is that getting on the right machine does more to mold public perception than anything else. Most people are wont to ignore that a rider might have a really great bike, but the rider himself might not be a really great talent. Good machinery or lack thereof warps all perspective on actual talent.

Toni Elias is a great example...he's a guy who in spite of winning a GP race, never got a chance to sniff factory machinery in all the years he rode in GP. Most people thought he was a one-hit wonder who just happened to get lucky one day. The only lucky aspect of his victory was getting Pedrosa's cast-off Saturday Night Specials. But he had to ride. He went into MotoAmerica's Superbike class this year on the Yoshimura Suzuki GSX-R 1000. He has 5 wins in a class that has been pretty much dominated more often than not by the Graves Yamaha R1's for quite a number of years. Even though he didn't win either Laguna Seca race Sunday, in race 2, he was nearly 15 seconds clear of his teammate Roger Hayden. He tried some ....... audacious late braking attempts to regain the lead that didn't stick. But ask a GP fan, and they probably wouldn't think much of him if they think motorcycle racing begins and dies with GP. Yet the first time he has gotten a competitive bike in years, he challenges for race wins. Yes the overall talent isn't GP level, but they've got some good riders in there.

Hollywood · Jul 12, 2016

I started in karts when I was a kid came up through Skip Barber series, then formula BMW, Indy lights, then IMSA and Grand Am/ALMS. Bike racing was limited to CMRA and the Aprilia rs250 cup class.

Skip Barber not only was it an excellent starter series but also an education in how the racing business works. Who and how to talk to teams, different types of sponsorships, and most importantly how to spend your money. I wish they had something similar for motorcycle racing, but the business side of things works the same.

since I quit racing and opened my own motorcycle shop I have sponsored a couple young riders... but there is really not a good developmental series in the USA, the KTM series was good, and believe it or not the Harley XR1200 series was good too. It still seems the best place to develop a young riders skills is in Europe.

JPSLotus · Jul 12, 2016

Hollywood said:
I started in karts when I was a kid came up through Skip Barber series, then formula BMW, Indy lights, then IMSA and Grand Am/ALMS. Bike racing was limited to CMRA and the Aprilia rs250 cup class.

Skip Barber not only was it an excellent starter series but also an education in how the racing business works. Who and how to talk to teams, different types of sponsorships, and most importantly how to spend your money. I wish they had something similar for motorcycle racing, but the business side of things works the same.

since I quit racing and opened my own motorcycle shop I have sponsored a couple young riders... but there is really not a good developmental series in the USA, the KTM series was good, and believe it or not the Harley XR1200 series was good too. It still seems the best place to develop a young riders skills is in Europe.

This is why I think Wayne Rainey's efforts in MotoAmerica are so important. It might be the way to finally develop a series that actually gets the attention of Europe, and finally gets quality American riders back onto the grid in GP. Many of the great world champions in GP were all American riders, so I don't think America has lost it's ability to supply great riders. The problem has more to do with Dorna's ........ Spanish bias.

Hollywood · Jul 13, 2016

JPSLotus said:
This is why I think Wayne Rainey's efforts in MotoAmerica are so important. It might be the way to finally develop a series that actually gets the attention of Europe, and finally gets quality American riders back onto the grid in GP. Many of the great world champions in GP were all American riders, so I don't think America has lost it's ability to supply great riders. The problem has more to do with Dorna's ........ Spanish bias.

what I think MotoAmerica needs is an entry level all in house (non private, all bikes managed by the same company) spec class, 250-500cc, caped at $5000 per rider per weekend. Something along the lines on the lines of the KTM cup series, but attached to MotoAmerica.

Richy56 · Jul 13, 2016

Hollywood said:
what I think MotoAmerica needs is an entry level all in house (non private, all bikes managed by the same company) spec class, 250-500cc, caped at $5000 per rider per weekend. Something along the lines on the lines of the KTM cup series, but attached to MotoAmerica.

My word is that how much it is to race in the US.

£4K would see me though a whole season in a budget class in the uk over 9 weekends. That's on a 500cc as well. You could pick up a bike for £1k too

Hollywood · Jul 13, 2016

Richy56 said:
My word is that how much it is to race in the US.

£4K would see me though a whole season in a budget class in the uk over 9 weekends. That's on a 500cc as well. You could pick up a bike for £1k too

granted for club racing $5000 will get you through the season....
but for a semi-pro series when you factor in tires, gas, brake pads, spare parts, race entry, bike fee, and crew fees....$5000 is a bargain!

lil red rocket pilot · Jul 13, 2016

Hollywood said:
granted for club racing $5000 will get you through the season....
but for a semi-pro series when you factor in tires, gas, brake pads, spare parts, race entry, bike fee, and crew fees....$5000 is a bargain!

Rory Skinner had to find £18,000 to compete in the Superteens.
And that was buying hardly any tyres, each race win gained him a new set of rubber. and that did include the cost of the bike,

Hollywood · Jul 13, 2016

lil red rocket pilot said:
Rory Skinner had to find £18,000 to compete in the Superteens.
And that was buying hardly any tyres, each race win gained him a new set of rubber. and that did include the cost of the bike,

you shouldn't need to purchase a bike to run in a series like this, just lease a new race bike through the company that is running the series, they do all the prep work, provide the parts, transport, and crew the bike during race weekend.
Very similar to the Skip Barber series, its worked well at launching the career of so many pro drivers.

Jumkie · Jul 13, 2016

Excellent posts Hollywood.

Lil Red, I know you helped sponsor Rory, how's he doing?

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

Richy56 · Jul 13, 2016

lil red rocket pilot said:
Rory Skinner had to find £18,000 to compete in the Superteens.
And that was buying hardly any tyres, each race win gained him a new set of rubber. and that did include the cost of the bike,

I know lads who didn't have raise any cash other than the entry to race super teens. The grids are only half full at best

It's a club series, granted thundersport is the biggest club but it's not anything more. You might get the odd bsb rider or roads rider to use them as practice events but that's it.

birdman · Jul 13, 2016

JPSLotus said:
This is why I think Wayne Rainey's efforts in MotoAmerica are so important. It might be the way to finally develop a series that actually gets the attention of Europe, and finally gets quality American riders back onto the grid in GP. Many of the great world champions in GP were all American riders, so I don't think America has lost it's ability to supply great riders. The problem has more to do with Dorna's ........ Spanish bias.

IMO the top talented kids in the US aspire to win MX/SX rather than chase relatively unknown motogp and I don't blame them. This is the series that gets not only the attention of Europe but the world, every MX rider aspires to be there. I've always had a keen interest obviously with Aussie riders getting plenty of opportunities. It would be interesting to see what the likes Villopoto/Stewart/Dungey etc would achieve if they switched to road racing early, I suspect they would be the Rainey's, Lawsons, Spencers of today. Whats your take, does the fame and fortune of MX In the US dwarf motoVR, are these guys household names or is Rossi just as popular over there?

JPSLotus · Jul 13, 2016

birdman said:
IMO the top talented kids in the US aspire to win MX/SX rather than chase relatively unknown motogp and I don't blame them. This is the series that gets not only the attention of Europe but the world, every MX rider aspires to be there. I've always had a keen interest obviously with Aussie riders getting plenty of opportunities. It would be interesting to see what the likes Villopoto/Stewart/Dungey etc would achieve if they switched to road racing early, I suspect they would be the Rainey's, Lawsons, Spencers of today. Whats your take, does the fame and fortune of MX In the US dwarf motoVR, are these guys household names or is Rossi just as popular over there?

I think if you have any interest in 2-wheel racing, you have to know GP is the absolute pinnacle. I'm not big into MX/SX personally. I will watch it here and there, but give me road course racing over dirt track racing any time of the week. It's a great training tool for any rider wishing to go places in road course racing. None of the MX/SX riders are household names by any stretch of the imagination. You know them if you follow it, but you aren't going to know of these guys otherwise because they are towards the bottom of the totem pole in America's sporting world. Their pay reflects it as well. The average person unfamiliar with motor racing is going to be more aware of any of the NASCAR drivers than any other motor racer period. The days of non-NASCAR racers being household names are long gone. Michael Andretti and Al Unser Jr. might have been the last of that group, and more because of the last name than anything.

I don't know, if the option for me was chasing glory on dirt in America, or chasing glory on tarmac globally in GP, I'd go for the latter always. But that is me.

Keep in mind, Wayne Rainey switched to road course racing because he was struggling to win in dirt track racing. There's no guarantee being good at dirt will translate over. Yes some of the best came from dirt backgrounds, but we only ever hear about the success stories. Had Wayne Rainey stuck it out instead of switching to AMA Superbike, it's unlikely anyone would know who he is today.

Jumkie · Jul 13, 2016

birdman said:
IMO the top talented kids in the US aspire to win MX/SX rather than chase relatively unknown motogp and I don't blame them. This is the series that gets not only the attention of Europe but the world, every MX rider aspires to be there. I've always had a keen interest obviously with Aussie riders getting plenty of opportunities. It would be interesting to see what the likes Villopoto/Stewart/Dungey etc would achieve if they switched to road racing early, I suspect they would be the Rainey's, Lawsons, Spencers of today. Whats your take, does the fame and fortune of MX In the US dwarf motoVR, are these guys household names or is Rossi just as popular over there?

Great take, I absolutely agree.

Btw Birdy, Des Nations will be in my back yard 2017. Glen Helen, CA. Come out.

JP, I disagree. In two wheel (granted a niche sport compared to stick ball) the SX are the biggest names. McGrath, Carmichael, Stewart, Villopoto, these are recognized names. Nobody has ever heard of Nicky Hayden, much less the AMA roadracing guys.

If you remotely follow motorsports in US (already a small group) they will have heard of Jeremy McGrath or Ricky Carmichael. You can list all of the Roadracing greats, nobody will have heard of them.

JPSLotus · Jul 13, 2016

Jumkie said:
Great take, I absolutely agree.

Btw Birdy, Des Nations will be in my back yard 2017. Glen Helen, CA. Come out.

JP, I disagree. In two wheel (granted a niche sport compared to stick ball) the SX are the biggest names. McGrath, Carmichael, Stewart, Villopoto, these are recognized names. Nobody has ever heard of Nicky Hayden, much less the AMA roadracing guys.

If you remotely follow motorsports in US (already a small group) they will have heard of Jeremy McGrath or Ricky Carmichael. You can list all of the Roadracing greats, nobody will have heard of them.

I take household names to mean those who are known even by those who don't actually follow. The only SX guy that might get there is McGrath. Racing just isn't as big as the four core sports in this country any longer.

I'd wager more people in the US know who Landon Donovan is because of one moment 6 years ago than they will ever know any of the mentioned SX riders. My general rule of thumb is if you have to follow the sport to know the person, then they aren't a household name.

Jumkie · Jul 13, 2016

Fair enough, not "household names" then, but not many are in any sport for that matter. You could name 99.99% of NBA, I wouldn't recognize any. The top top guy is known because often they cross over into popular culture. "Household name" is very exclusive then. In other words if you were to name 100% of NBA players to my wife for example, she would recognize zero. Household names, this standard might be made in singular events, like Olympics, TMZ, World Farce, etc. Like you say, Donovan. Nobody follows MLS, but when Beckham was here they had heard of him.

Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)

birdman · Jul 13, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I think if you have any interest in 2-wheel racing, you have to know GP is the absolute pinnacle. I'm not big into MX/SX personally. I will watch it here and there, but give me road course racing over dirt track racing any time of the week. It's a great training tool for any rider wishing to go places in road course racing. None of the MX/SX riders are household names by any stretch of the imagination. You know them if you follow it, but you aren't going to know of these guys otherwise because they are towards the bottom of the totem pole in America's sporting world. Their pay reflects it as well. The average person unfamiliar with motor racing is going to be more aware of any of the NASCAR drivers than any other motor racer period. The days of non-NASCAR racers being household names are long gone. Michael Andretti and Al Unser Jr. might have been the last of that group, and more because of the last name than anything.

I don't know, if the option for me was chasing glory on dirt in America, or chasing glory on tarmac globally in GP, I'd go for the latter always. But that is me.

Keep in mind, Wayne Rainey switched to road course racing because he was struggling to win in dirt track racing. There's no guarantee being good at dirt will translate over. Yes some of the best came from dirt backgrounds, but we only ever hear about the success stories. Had Wayne Rainey stuck it out instead of switching to AMA Superbike, it's unlikely anyone would know who he is today.

Im not talking about you or I as mature age. I'm talking future racers. Think grassroots, 5 year old kids. What would they more likely be exposed to, the MX/SX scene or Motogp? Who would they dream to emulate, Bubba Stewart or Nicky Hayden? What can parents in the US actually access in junior racing, dirt bikes or road circuit?

If its anything like my childhood, the first object that ever really captured my attention was not a footy or cricket bat it was a crappy old mini bike in the shed with nobby tires.

From there it was meeting other kids on crappy bikes. So I can really relate to the childhoods of the Raineys, Lawsons, Stoners. It was also no big deal for my old man to hook up a trailer and take us to the local MX track. First time I saw an MX race as a kid it blew my mind like nothing I've seen since.

That's our culture. Jumkie mentioned des Nations. Its obvious USA has world class talent. Its just they aren't riding road bikes. When you have to mortage the house just to get a slight chance at the dream maybe that's not such a bad thing. I honestly see the US MX/SX as a superior series in determining talent.

birdman · Jul 13, 2016

Jumkie said:
Great take, I absolutely agree.

Btw Birdy, Des Nations will be in my back yard 2017. Glen Helen, CA. Come out.

Would love to. Pencil in, checkbook out.

lil red rocket pilot · Jul 14, 2016

Hollywood said:
you shouldn't need to purchase a bike to run in a series like this, just lease a new race bike through the company that is running the series, they do all the prep work, provide the parts, transport, and crew the bike during race weekend.
Very similar to the Skip Barber series, its worked well at launching the career of so many pro drivers.

That depends on if you want to keep it at the end of the season, His Dad has a bike sales and repair servicing etc shop.
It's nice to go in there and see the collection of championship winning bikes

However I do believe they have leased the bike this season to help finance the red bull rookies and CEV although RSF are helping a lot with the CEV.

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How much does it cost to get a ride - Aussie perspectives

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