2025 Silly Season

RE: Ducati and Red Bull... Looks like Marc is still doing promo material for Red Bull (check this vid with Daniel Ricciardo). If the rider you're sponsoring were to jump to your main rival in a few months, would you do these kinds of promos? I think not. You would quietly stop collaborating with him. So the rumors of RB becoming a Ducati sponsor warrant some merit. At the very least I can see Ducati dropping the Monster exclusivity deal and let riders choose their own energy drink sponsor again.

As for Joan Mir, his manager recently said there's still nothing signed yet. Still stuff left to negotiate, maybe somebody else can swoop in.

Sennas_Caress said:

Well, after Micheline became the sole tyre, and Honda got hold of Marquez, Yamaha did regress.

Can't see that too much fault lies at Lin's door.

He bet on Viñales. That didn't come off well, although the idea was ok.

Then they bet on Quartararo. That worked well.

His biggest fault might be to loose the satellite team. That was unfortunate.

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1. He favoured Rossi over Lorenzo who was in his prime still, unlike Rossi who, as good as he was, was on the downside of his career. This cost Yamaha their most recent champion until Fabio joined.
2. He let the satellite team go because they viewed it simply as a revenue stream and not a developmental tool, which was a huge mistake as history has shown.

synn said:

I guess if you’re changing everything about the project down to the nuts and bolts, having consistency in the rider lineup could help. They did say that Mir gave good feedback (As did Marini and Zarco), so if they are REALLY willing to change, this lineup should help them get there.

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I agree. Along those lines, I'm going to be interested to see how Aprilia does next season if they hire an outsider instead of Oliveira. Will it be akin to 2017 with Suzuki when they hired Iannone and Rins (a rookie), and they went in the wrong direction on the engine character?

synn said:

Interestingly, The Race is reporting that M. Marquez’s biggest personal sponsors (I’m guessing Red Bull, Samsung, Oakley) are in discussions with the Factory Lenovo team to potentially replace some of the existing team sponsors.

This implies two things:
- Marquez could potentially bring in a commercial value equal or greater than the existing sponsorship package; which clarifies why Martin and Bastianini got the boot
- They’re expecting Marquez to stick around for 4-5 years, which justifies breaking ties with long term sponsors.

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I would love to be a fly on the wall while they are sorting all this out. Red Bull Ducati 2025?

JPSLotus said:

If you're Red Bull and you manage to displace Monster energy at Ducati, that's going to be a hell of a coup. Maybe this is why they haven't really said too much about anything outside of signing Marc - the sponsor negotiations. I'd have to think they would get that sorted out over the summer and hopefully we know what the sponsor situation is in the coming months.

I think you're right about them expecting Marc to be around for more than 2 years. It wouldn't make sense to break existing sponsor deals unless you think he's going to be around for a bit.

There's no one currently on the grid that can match Marc's sponsorship deals.

I don't know, I've got to give Marc credit. I thought he had huge balls on the race track, but didn't realize even at the negotiating table he has absolutely no fear.

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I don't consider Monster a large partner with Ducati when you consider the logo size vs Yamaha, so I imagine there will be a way to make that deal go away. Simon Patterson is continually convinced that Marc will eventually end up back at Honda but I don't see it, certainly not at the moment. He could end up being a Ducati ambassador and my understanding was that a condition of him signing was guarantees that Gigi would be on board until at least the first season of the new regs.

Marc doesnt strike me as a sentimental guy, and I think he would be quite happy to consider his Honda career closed.

synn said:

This is one of the reasons why the Marquez bros dropped Alzamora. They needed to negotiate outside of HRC and needed someone with sharp teeth.

Interestingly enough, their manager is ex Red Bull marketing.

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I think it was that and because his rushed return, causing further issues in 2020, was somewhat art the behest of Alzamora.

#22 said:

Marc doesnt strike me as a sentimental guy, and I think he would be quite happy to consider his Honda career closed.

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Maybe he could become a Honda ambassador while he rides for Ducati...

MichaelBolton said:

Maybe he could become a Honda ambassador while he rides for Ducati...

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Depends.
What’s the marketing budget of the lawnmower division?

#22 said:

He let the satellite team go because they viewed it simply as a revenue stream and not a developmental tool, which was a huge mistake as history has shown.

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Just a bit of clarification here, that was not Jarvis’ call, it was the factory’s (Same with Honda). Ditto the call to only offer RNF only a one year deal (Which proved to be right because it was propped up with shady crypto money and unsurprisingly imploded).

I’ve also heard that Yamaha and Honda leases were more expensive than the European bikes precisely because the factories saw them as a revenue stream. Thats changing at least at Yamaha now in their quest to woo Pramac.

synn said:

Depends.
What’s the marketing budget of the lawnmower division?

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$0

Honda Exiting Gas Lawn Mower Market

synn said:

Just a bit of clarification here, that was not Jarvis’ call, it was the factory’s (Same with Honda). Ditto the call to only offer RNF only a one year deal (Which proved to be right because it was propped up with shady crypto money and unsurprisingly imploded).

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Oh I'm sure it was, but Jarvis didn't push back like he could have. I distinctly remember an interview with him around 2018 when (prior to Tech 3 leaving) he was asked about giving them more support or at least 1 factory bike (which at least Honda was doing by that point with LCR) and he snapped back at the reporter simply saying words to the effect of 'If they want newer bikes, they can pay for newer bikes, it's simple'

I believe it was always Jarvis' and Yamaha's opinion that VR46 would take over the Tech 3 Yamaha supply anyway, which was another reason Tech 3 left for KTM.

synn said:

I’ve also heard that Yamaha and Honda leases were more expensive than the European bikes precisely because the factories saw them as a revenue stream. Thats changing at least at Yamaha now in their quest to woo Pramac.

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Yup, I heard the same thing. I think it stems back to the time when Ducati was a bad bike so were cheaper to lease (think of AB Cardion, Avintia etc). As I stated above, Honda did at least have a 3rd 'factory spec' bike in a customer team as far back as 2015 with Crutchlow. Though I'm not sure how much good that did, except maybe to test the crash strength of fairings.

synn said:

Depends.
What’s the marketing budget of the lawnmower division?

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Remember when Nakamoto said HRC could just outspend everyone on aero development? Maybe he just meant they could do that, not that they would get anywhere doing it.

#22 said:

'If they want newer bikes, they can pay for newer bikes, it's simple'

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To be fair, Poncharal probably started every year with a healthy budget; enough to lease two factory bikes, and like a good Frenchman spent half of it on Gauloises and Beaujolais.

MichaelBolton said:

RE: Ducati and Red Bull... Looks like Marc is still doing promo material for Red Bull (check this vid with Daniel Ricciardo). If the rider you're sponsoring were to jump to your main rival in a few months, would you do these kinds of promos? I think not. You would quietly stop collaborating with him. So the rumors of RB becoming a Ducati sponsor warrant some merit. At the very least I can see Ducati dropping the Monster exclusivity deal and let riders choose their own energy drink sponsor again.

As for Joan Mir, his manager recently said there's still nothing signed yet. Still stuff left to negotiate, maybe somebody else can swoop in.

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Marc has a deal with Red Bull, they can flood the internet and social media with images of him and their product (logo) as long as he is under contract, and we all know once something is on internet it is there forever! Even if he does switch to Monster, the vast majority of media content out there will feature him with Red Bull, and will forever be associated with Red Bull. Marc will still be selling product for Red Bull long after he has left, so if you are Red Bull use him while you got him!

Same thing is going on with Prado, possibly switching from Red Bull GasGas in MXGP to Moster Energy Kawasaki in SMX. The vast majority of his success and world championships have come while sponsored by RB, anytime anyone googles him he will likely pop up wearing RB, So why would Monster spend millions to bring him over??

p4p1 said:

This is the thing, aero is here to stay. Reducing the wing area size etc will not stop anybody from getting the downforce they want because engineers will come up with ways to make it happen, much like the double diffuser in f1.

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It's true that a new era of aero performance is here to stay. Teams have invested in the aero equipment/personnel, and the development will surely continue.

Technically, teams have always been free to pursue aerodynamic performance gains, but they were deemed high cost and low reward. Ride height changed the game by allowing variable wing attack and even variable drag for the entire bike/rider package. If the ride height ban actually works, aero performance should become less rewarding. It seems like the GPC are merely trying to make aero less appealing again.

The regulatory voodoo on the front fairing is perhaps about balancing downforce and drag to alter braking distances. They have shortened the "box" for the front fairing which moves the leading edge back. This will surely increase drag to keep top speeds in check. However, the additional drag will also shorten braking distances so narrowing the front fairing is a theoretical attempt to reduce downforce and increase the locking properties of the front tire to lengthen braking.......and we still don't know how the Michelins will change.

There is perhaps another major financial change to the aero equation. It was rumored that some MotoGP teams had built out F1-caliber aero operations because they were running CFD and sims for F1 teams to skirt the limits in F1. Liberty Media own MotoGP and F1 now. If Liberty cracks down on this transfer of resources between F1 and MotoGP, the manufacturers may lose revenue for their aero programs. Perhaps this is why some of the manufacturers have agreed to make aero less influential.

MichaelBolton said:

RE: Ducati and Red Bull... Looks like Marc is still doing promo material for Red Bull (check this vid with Daniel Ricciardo). If the rider you're sponsoring were to jump to your main rival in a few months, would you do these kinds of promos? I think not. You would quietly stop collaborating with him. So the rumors of RB becoming a Ducati sponsor warrant some merit. At the very least I can see Ducati dropping the Monster exclusivity deal and let riders choose their own energy drink sponsor again.

As for Joan Mir, his manager recently said there's still nothing signed yet. Still stuff left to negotiate, maybe somebody else can swoop in.

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Maybe. It's also possible that this event was planned and contracts were signed long before Marc chose factory Ducati. Red Bull could also try to saturate the market with Marquez media in hopes that everyone will be indifferent if he moves to Monster next season.

Media contracts are like the Wild West. Difficult to determine what's happening unless you're in the strategy meetings.

JPSLotus said:

Remember when Nakamoto said HRC could just outspend everyone on aero development? Maybe he just meant they could do that, not that they would get anywhere doing it.

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Sure, and I can outspend everyone taking a dump, if I rip up $100 bills while doing it.

mylexicon said:

Maybe. It's also possible that this event was planned and contracts were signed long before Marc chose factory Ducati. Red Bull could also try to saturate the market with Marquez media in hopes that everyone will be indifferent if he moves to Monster next season.

Media contracts are like the Wild West. Difficult to determine what's happening unless you're in the strategy meetings.

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And as always, everything has a price.

michaelm said:

I an led to believe the Japanese manufacturers sell oodles of small bikes in developing countries and there are apparently plenty of 125 bikes in Repsol colours in those markets, and Yamaha likely get great brand recognition with Valentino in such places.

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So many small scooters in Indonesia have Repsol colours, and more MotoGP teams colours. Very popular, and I'm sure an effect is there. Lots of bikes with '46' Rossi branding too.

And more. I saw huge billboards for Pramac in Indonesia. Including riders and MotoGP bikes. With the energy supply there being a bit unreliable, I'm not surprised that it's good business for a company selling portable generators finds it viable to advertise there.

#22 said:

Sure, and I can outspend everyone taking a dump, if I rip up $100 bills while doing it.

And as always, everything has a price.

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That was before Ducati were in the Audi/VW stable, and I also agree with Lex that Honda straight out disapprove of aero on bikes as a matter of bike engineering principle.

I can remember Honda saying a few years back they could make or had made a bike with aero which was much faster but which fatigued the rider within a lap. The current aero GP bikes aren’t quite at that level, but current riders (? Alex Espargaro) have complained about them being more tiring to ride.

michaelm said:

That was before Ducati were in the Audi/VW stable, and I also agree with Lex that Honda straight out disapprove of aero on bikes as a matter of bike engineering principle.

I can remember Honda saying a few years back they could make or had made a bike with aero which was much faster but which fatigued the rider within a lap. The current aero GP bikes aren’t quite at that level, but current riders (? Alex Espargaro) have complained about them being more tiring to ride.

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Since then, Gigi seemed to have found a way to make a fast aero bike that is not too tiring for the rider

surendhar said:

Since then, Gigi seemed to have found a way to make a fast aero bike that is not too tiring for the rider

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It still is, look at the frequency of arm pump surgery for modern day riders.
The bikes just got better at turning compared to the initial attempts.

Wow. Mir renewing with HRC may not be a done deal yet.
GPone is reporting that HRC is trying to sign Toprak. Now THAT would be a coup!
Article is in Italian, you’ll have to use Google translate.

synn said:

Wow. Mir renewing with HRC may not be a done deal yet.
GPone is reporting that HRC is trying to sign Toprak. Now THAT would be a coup!
Article is in Italian, you’ll have to use Google translate.

SBK, La Honda vuole portare Toprak Razgatlioglu in MotoGP!

SBK: Secondo quanto appreso, HRC ha avanzato un’offerta a Kenan Sofuoglu per avere il turco in squadra già il prossimo anno con l'obiettivo di strapparlo a BMW

m.gpone.com

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I woke up 5 minutes ago to a news article that Kenan was expecting Toprak to try and get into GP for 2025.

I nearly choked when I saw that. I nearly choked again reading what you posted about HRC trying to sign him. I actually think that would be a great move for Honda since Mir is not a rider who belongs on the RC213V. There's nothing about that bike that fits his riding style. Toprak on the other hand I think might just be the right rider for the bike.