2025 Silly Season

Given their signings, I think it is obvious that KTM have gone all in for a championship in the first season of the new rules. They know Pedro is their future and could be a generational talent (I want to see him dominate before I say he is) but their new signings are all guys who are fast, one has rode a Ducati, the other an Aprilia, Suzuki and Yamaha. To me this says they are chasing as much rider feedback on their bike compared to others in an attempt to chase that elusive championship.

mylexicon said:

The next two seasons could be interesting regarding the balance of power between KTM, Aprilia and Ducati, particularly between the latter 2 manufacturers. The guestimates about 2027 hint that Aprilia's aero package and philosophy will still be legal because they are using diffuser concepts. The weird lower bodywork on the side fairings that supposedly creates downforce at full lean will still be legal. The ducting they use to draw air around the bike and push it up towards the tail will still be legal. Ducati and KTM, on the other hand, will lose front wing real estate. If the wing end plate is too close to the outer edge of the bodywork, the closed wing design may not efficiently flow air. The leading edge of the front fairing will also get shorter.

Ducati and KTM will probably figure something out, but if they need to change aero strategy that development could factor into the championship during the next 2 seasons. I guess it will depend on how testing goes.

Wish I could remember where I read these thoughts. Social media is making it difficult to catalog sources. It's there for a blink of an eye. If you don't take a screen shot or like it or something, it vanishes into the black hole algorithmic non-recall. Anyway, thoughts are not my own.

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This is the thing, aero is here to stay. Reducing the wing area size etc will not stop anybody from getting the downforce they want because engineers will come up with ways to make it happen, much like the double diffuser in f1.

warthog1 said:

I do not see those two having the final say. Given much of the backing and formation of the team is coming from VR I think it far more likely the final say is his.

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It would depend on what their contract says, but I would assume, they laid out their reasoning for why they shouldn't take the Yamaha bikes and Rossi agreed with them. As someone pointed out above a large reason they gave him could be to do with sponsorship money making it a zero cost enterprise for Rossi and poor results meaning that he would have to tip in his own money to fund what they need.

p4p1 said:

I assume that Rossi's brand appeal extends further than just motogp fans though. You walk into a Yamaha shop and see pictures of him etc. all it says is 9 x champion. It is good PR regardless.

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Yes, MotoGP fans with any sort of understanding of the sport and history of Rossis actions are less likely to be fans than the average uninformed punter. A new sport bike is a significant purchase, I don't see a picture of him making much difference in swaying that amount of expenditure but yeah I am not always right and people are not always logical.

p4p1 said:

It would depend on what their contract says, but I would assume, they laid out their reasoning for why they shouldn't take the Yamaha bikes and Rossi agreed with them. As someone pointed out above a large reason they gave him could be to do with sponsorship money making it a zero cost enterprise for Rossi and poor results meaning that he would have to tip in his own money to fund what they need.

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Well, the Yamaha would definitely have been a zero cost option if the rumours of Pramac joining Yamaha bear any relation to fact. No the results wont have been there though.

p4p1 said:

I assume that Rossi's brand appeal extends further than just motogp fans though. You walk into a Yamaha shop and see pictures of him etc. all it says is 9 x champion. It is good PR regardless.

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I an led to believe the Japanese manufacturers sell oodles of small bikes in developing countries and there are apparently plenty of 125 bikes in Repsol colours in those markets, and Yamaha likely get great brand recognition with Valentino in such places.

warthog1 said:

Well, the Yamaha would definitely have been a zero cost option if the rumours of Pramac joining Yamaha bear any relation to fact. No the results wont have been there though.

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But what is the overall cost of running a team? They might save on the bikes, but there is still riders salaries, crew chiefs, the crews, team manager, truck drivers etc to consider as well. Are the bikes even 50% of the overall cost of running a team? Even if the bikes are free but you're not getting the same money coming in from sponsorships etc then they could have been worse off.

michaelm said:

I an led to believe the Japanese manufacturers sell oodles of small bikes in developing countries and there are apparently plenty of 125 bikes in Repsol colours in those markets, and Yamaha likely get great brand recognition with Valentino in such places.

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If I was starting a bike manufacturer from scratch, the first bike/s I would make would be 125's in naked, sports etc and trying to flog those off in Asia, knowing they sell them in their millions and you only need to get a small % of those sales to get the money you need to invest in the bigger bikes etc.
It's just a shame we can't get that going here in Aus and have our own bike brand in a country that loves bikes as much as we do.

p4p1 said:

But what is the overall cost of running a team? They might save on the bikes, but there is still riders salaries, crew chiefs, the crews, team manager, truck drivers etc to consider as well. Are the bikes even 50% of the overall cost of running a team? Even if the bikes are free but you're not getting the same money coming in from sponsorships etc then they could have been worse off.

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Those running the team might like to be successful as well, which they have been far more likely to be with bikes from Ducati so far, if they are looking long term then that might trump bring a brand recognition team for Yamaha.

michaelm said:

Those running the team might like to be successful as well, which they have been far more likely to be with bikes from Ducati so far, if they are looking long term then that might ..... bring a brand recognition team for Yamaha.

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I don't think anyone gets into racing to not be successful, and VR doesn't do anything to not be successful. With the new ownership, rule changes etc there could be a lot changing.
My completely left field thing to happen after the rule change is for Liberty to fund a 'Ferrari' team and who better to be the face of the Ferrari MotoGP effort than Rossi, a fellow Italian legend, who races cars, has tested Ferrari F1 etc. Is it likely? No but I would be very surprised if VR46 isn't a part of Liberty's plans as a factory team in the future. Whether that is BMW, Ferrari, Yamaha, Harley or someone else who knows.
But I do believe that the the racing industry at the top level is changing and manufacturers are going to or have started to ask for a bigger piece of the pie to fund their racing programs at almost a 0 cost. The factories have all the power, they are the show, they generate interest, more factories with good bikes creates more interest in the series (Gigi understood this which is why he was happy to give the Japanese teams more concessions), the factories will want a bigger piece of pie from Liberty who bought MotoGP to make money and if they are making money while factories are running their racing programs at a loss, why wouldn't they demand more income from the series? Perhaps the factories and IRTA demand 50%+ of the income to fund their efforts.

p4p1 said:

But what is the overall cost of running a team? They might save on the bikes, but there is still riders salaries, crew chiefs, the crews, team manager, truck drivers etc to consider as well. Are the bikes even 50% of the overall cost of running a team? Even if the bikes are free but you're not getting the same money coming in from sponsorships etc then they could have been worse off.

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As per this post;

p4p1 said:

Without knowing the innerworkings of the Ducati and Pramac relationship, it does feel that Ducati were happy to let Pramac make the decision whether they would stay or not without trying overly hard to entice them to. VR46 will likely never be short of being able to fund their own riders and bikes, while it sounds like Pramac were going to have trouble if not fully supported by Ducati.
MM brings in $$$ if only sponsorship and with Audi tightening the belt, that money could be very important going forward for them. Not to mention his still existent talent.
As far as replacing Martin and Bastianini goes, they might not be dime a dozen riders but there is some good talent coming through the classes and they may believe (correctly or not) that their wins and strong recent results are because of the bike rather than because they are the best(ish) talents on the grid.

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It seems it would cost less to go with Yamaha. The same is true for VR46 as it is for Pramac with respect to cost. Given VR was apparently penciled in as the eventual Yamaha satellite previously I don't think sponsorship funding was the reason unless he is pocketing it.

p4p1 said:

I do find that extremely interesting.
It also leads me to believe that Lin Jarvis' retirement was forced onto him by Yamaha, his handling of Rossi at Yamaha being one of the bigger nails in his coffin IMO. He is directly or indirectly responsible for losing Lorenzo (who despite his age, very well could have claimed a championship for Yamaha in 2020 given what eventuated), losing their satellite team (tech3) because it seemed obvious and clear at the time that the VR46 satellite team was going to replace them, that did not eventuate and has left Yamaha at a disadvantage etc.

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Let's not forget that Lin is closing in on 70, having led Yamaha's operations for a quarter of a century, and now have to deal with at least half the year being track side.

Yamaha before Lin was on a decade long barren spell. Then came the championships with Valentino and Lorenzo.

All as the underdog to Honda, the big brother.

Lin has also managed to steer the Japanese into accepting change, and a lot quicker than Honda.

warthog1 said:

I do not see those two having the final say. Given much of the backing and formation of the team is coming from VR I think it far more likely the final say is his.

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It was confirmed publicly.
Rossi wanted to go with Yamaha, Mooney and Pertamina after that, wanted to stay with Ducati. Uccio and Pablo Nieto are the ones negotiating the sponsorship deals and running the team day to day. Rossi plays no major role in the running of the team and is more or less fully committed to car racing.

synn said:

It was confirmed publicly.
Rossi wanted to go with Yamaha, Mooney and Pertamina after that, wanted to stay with Ducati. Uccio and Pablo Nieto are the ones negotiating the sponsorship deals and running the team day to day. Rossi plays no major role in the running of the team and is more or less fully committed to car racing.

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I have not read that. Source?
VR may be focussed on car racing, I don't see that as meaning he is completely removed from decisions involving the team that bears his name. Negotiations would take time and presence, but being informed and involved in decision making would not require enough time to stop him racing cars it seems to me.

warthog1 said:

I have not read that. Source?
VR may be focussed on car racing, I don't see that as meaning he is completely removed from decisions involving the team that bears his name. Negotiations would take time and presence, but being informed and involved in decision making would not require enough time to stop him racing cars it seems to me.

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It was on GPone or something.
I don’t aim to convince you if you already have your mind made up. But the reality is that VR46 the team, VR46 the academy and Valentino Rossi’s personal brand are all distinct commercial entities with their own commercial interests and partners.

They may be United in name and do get mileage out of it, but the day to day operations are run distinctly.

synn said:

It was confirmed publicly.
Rossi wanted to go with Yamaha, Mooney and Pertamina after that, wanted to stay with Ducati. Uccio and Pablo Nieto are the ones negotiating the sponsorship deals and running the team day to day. Rossi plays no major role in the running of the team and is more or less fully committed to car racing.

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Are you saying that Mooney and Pertamina wanted to stay with Ducati? Because if so, it sounds like their major sponsors said if VR46 go to Yamaha, they will pull their sponsorship. I agree with what Warthog said, it makes more sense for Uccio and Nieto to be dealing with the time consuming stuff and presenting Rossi options.
Make no mistake, if Rossi wanted his team on Yamaha's, they would be on Yamaha's. He is still the boss. But presenting him with valid reasons why they should stay with Ducati, despite his Yamaha interests would sway him. I don't see Rossi giving up total control of his team and this brand to anyone.

synn said:

It was on GPone or something.
I don’t aim to convince you if you already have your mind made up. But the reality is that VR46 the team, VR46 the academy and Valentino Rossi’s personal brand are all distinct commercial entities with their own commercial interests and partners.

They may be United in name and do get mileage out of it, but the day to day operations are run distinctly.

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Of course but it's doubtful any decision is made without Rossi's blessing or against what Rossi wants. As I said above, he may have said he wanted to switch to Yamaha, it was clearly explored but found to be a poor business decision for the team.

p4p1 said:

Are you saying that Mooney and Pertamina wanted to stay with Ducati? Because if so, it sounds like their major sponsors said if VR46 go to Yamaha, they will pull their sponsorship. I agree with what Warthog said, it makes more sense for Uccio and Nieto to be dealing with the time consuming stuff and presenting Rossi options.
Make no mistake, if Rossi wanted his team on Yamaha's, they would be on Yamaha's. He is still the boss. But presenting him with valid reasons why they should stay with Ducati, despite his Yamaha interests would sway him. I don't see Rossi giving up total control of his team and this brand to anyone.

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Rossi, all things equal probably wants to stay with Yamaha, but he’s also smart enough to know this means mid pack results for a while.

Maybe that’s a concession he’s willing to make (And one Pramac seemingly will make), but not what the team sponsors want, at least for now.

Things can change and probably will change in a couple of years, but sponsorship is the primary reason they are sticking with Ducati, according to Uccio.

Other parts of the VR46 franchise are similarly segregated. The talent management team is completely separated from the race team to avoid conflicts of interest. This is why they managed to negotiate Marini’s renewal with VR46, and then negotiated a factory deal with HRC (A team that has no love lost for Rossi, incidentally).

To put it in a more succinct way, Rossi makes money off all of this, as he is the owner and founder, but he also is smart enough to put each division in the hands of people who can run them autonomously and make him that money.

p4p1 said:

Of course but it's doubtful any decision is made without Rossi's blessing or against what Rossi wants. As I said above, he may have said he wanted to switch to Yamaha, it was clearly explored but found to be a poor business decision for the team.

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This is basically what I said.
Rossi’s personal preference was to go to Yamaha, but the team and their sponsors wanted to stay with Ducati for commercial reasons. Commercial reasons won.

synn said:

This is basically what I said.
Rossi’s personal preference was to go to Yamaha, but the team and their sponsors wanted to stay with Ducati for commercial reasons. Commercial reasons won.

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You appeared to suggest the decision is made without any input from Rossi. I very much doubt that is the case.