2025 Silly Season

synn said:

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Welcome.
The fundamental difference between later era Honda Marquez vs Teammates and Pecco vs Marquez is that Marquez is getting on board a bike that is greatly influenced by Pecco instead of the other way around. Marquez is highly adaptable, as we have seen, but Pecco is better than just about everyone else in leveraging aero.

It should be an excellent matchup, and I hope it stays on track.

I also hope red mist Martin wins this year and takes the #1 plate to Aprilia.

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A good point. I agree and have posted many times before your return to the forum that imo Bagnaia has ridden the aero bike best, including delivering under pressure which involved staying on his bike better than Martin managed last season.

The bike has certainly been designed for Pecco, and as has been discussed on here probably to negate the advantage MM had from the elements of his riding style which couldn’t be replicated by other humans.

What will be interesting is what Gigi does. His thing is a monomaniacal pursuit of his bikes going as fast as possible imo, and what Daniel Petrucci said a couple of weeks ago while claiming no inside knowledge is ringing true, that Gigi might want to see what a rider like Marc can do on one of his bikes. He won’t radically re-design such a dominant bike, but I could see a few tweaks in MM’s favour if it makes Gigi’s bike faster overall.

surendhar said:

I read somewhere that MM spoke to Gigi before signing the contract and had confirmation that Gigi will be there till 2026 at Ducati. They really have a lot of respect for each other.

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Can’t blame MM there. Ducati haven’t got a great record of man management, engineering etc without Gigi. MM doesn’t want to go back to the Honda days where he has to perform minor miracles to get race wins.

michaelm said:

I haven’t followed what they have been doing engine wise, but if the current engine is still a version of the engine they had when they had their own ECU then a ground up re-design is what they have always needed imo. Nakamoto said way back then that a spec ECU would kill Honda, and threatened to withdraw.

I consider Lex to have a point that aero is counter to Honda ‘s engineering philosophy, but they are also going to need to go aero to succeed in the remaining years of this formula imo.

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Aero isn’t completely gone from 2027 onwards. I suspect that will still be a significant factor and that Gigi (among others most likely) will find ways around the rules to create similar downforce and speed with the ‘reduced’ aero. Much like the double diffuser in F1.

michaelm said:

I have posted my view more than enough about the events concerned, but in regard to “research” there is a tendency for people to find what they want to find.

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Agreed 100% and it doesn’t take the feeling of the tyres or how riders need to save their tyres into the equation. Even in the sprints, guys can’t ride at 100% without using too much tyre.

michaelm said:

What will be interesting is what Gigi does. His thing is a monomaniacal pursuit of his bikes going as fast as possible imo, and what Daniel Petrucci said a couple of weeks ago while claiming no inside knowledge is ringing true, that Gigi might want to see what a rider like Marc can do on one of his bikes. He won’t radically re-design such a dominant bike, but I could see a few tweaks in MM’s favour if it makes Gigi’s bike faster overall.

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There definitely seems to be a want from Gigi to work with MM. Pecco is good to great, no doubt about it, but I’m not sure if he is Lorenzo calibre. Gigi is also well aware what MM did on a substandard Honda, he is aware that if not for MM Ducati likely would’ve won the championship from ‘17-‘19, which is a huge reason why he doesn’t want MM leaving Ducati. But as an engineer and among the best motorcycle engineers ever, there must also be a question in Gigi’s head about what innovations he can try for MM that might make his bike even more untouchable in MM’s hands.

Maybe part of the negotiation with signing marquez included allowing prosecco for his third and probably last title, as martin will stop to get updates. Peccer might have seen his chance and agreed to that. Acosta is coming and he probably cant win against neither marquez nor martin when in the same team, so it might be the move that pleased 2 out of 3 riders, instead 1 of 3. its make hay while the sun shines for bagnaia. Im sure this negotiation included a strict no alcohol clause during summer break

p4p1 said:

Agreed 100% and it doesn’t take the feeling of the tyres or how riders need to save their tyres into the equation. Even in the sprints, guys can’t ride at 100% without using too much tyre.

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A tactic which doesn’t involve cheating and wins you a race needs no defending, particularly if an alternative approach has resulted in 5 dnfs due to early race crashes.

michaelm said:

A good point. I agree and have posted many times before your return to the forum that imo Bagnaia has ridden the aero bike best, including delivering under pressure which involved staying on his bike better than Martin managed last season.

The bike has certainly been designed for Pecco, and as has been discussed on here probably to negate the advantage MM had from the elements of his riding style which couldn’t be replicated by other humans.

What will be interesting is what Gigi does. His thing is a monomaniacal pursuit of his bikes going as fast as possible imo, and what Daniel Petrucci said a couple of weeks ago while claiming no inside knowledge is ringing true, that Gigi might want to see what a rider like Marc can do on one of his bikes. He won’t radically re-design such a dominant bike, but I could see a few tweaks in MM’s favour if it makes Gigi’s bike faster overall.

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Yes, I am sure the 2025 bike will have tweaks that cater to Marquez as well, which is absolutely fair.

I do admire Gigi’s mad scientist approach to extracting performance out of a motorcycle, but I am glad the regulations are keeping him somewhat in check. A few months ago, he did an interview where he said he hoped the 2027 engines would be an ICE+ electric combo a-la F1.

I’d just about stop watching at that point.

surendhar said:

I somehow feel, that they wanted Bez to remain in their team in the hopes of getting factory GP25 for Bez. Also I feel Bez seem to be more loyal to VR than the other academy recruits (even more so than Marini). But I maybe and happy to be wrong in this case.

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The 2025 bikes will de facto go to VR46, with or without Bez , if Pramac goes to Yamaha, because they’re the only customer Ducati team that can pay for them ( from what I remember, the lease for a year old bike with parts and personnel support is about 2-300k, it’s 3x that for the current bike).

Bez stayed with VR46 this year because he didn’t want to give up the family atmosphere to go to another satellite team. But a factory contract is another matter, and VR46 will gladly let him go.

MdubSTYLIE said:

This post should have ended there. If you want to discuss that please take it to another thread. The 2015 Malaysian gp thread is still on the first page of topics in the motogp section of the forum. This isn't the place to discuss this. Welcome though man.

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You're right, sorry. It looks like posts can't be edited in here, but I'll copy that part onto the PI 2015 thread so that at least that comment can also be found where it belongs. Cheers.

synn said:

I do admire Gigi’s mad scientist approach to extracting performance out of a motorcycle, but I am glad the regulations are keeping him somewhat in check. A few months ago, he did an interview where he said he hoped the 2027 engines would be an ICE+ electric combo a-la F1.

I’d just about stop watching at that point.

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Me too, the political push for electrification is nauseating and it would kill this sport.

p4p1 said:

There definitely seems to be a want from Gigi to work with MM. Pecco is good to great, no doubt about it, but I’m not sure if he is Lorenzo calibre. Gigi is also well aware what MM did on a substandard Honda, he is aware that if not for MM Ducati likely would’ve won the championship from ‘17-‘19, which is a huge reason why he doesn’t want MM leaving Ducati. But as an engineer and among the best motorcycle engineers ever, there must also be a question in Gigi’s head about what innovations he can try for MM that might make his bike even more untouchable in MM’s hands.

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Exactly, it looks like Ducati "don't need Marquez to win", but that's because he's not been a contender in the last few years purely due to misfortune. Ducati are well aware that if he's not with them he'll be against them, so they had to sign him. If Ducati signed JM and then lost titles to MM for sure some people at Ducati would have had to be sacked for making stupid recruitment decisions.

FastinFastout said:

Me too, the political push for electrification is nauseating and it would kill this sport.

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I bet if they replaced Moto E with a 250cc two stroke “Nostalgia” cup, viewership would go up 10x.

FastinFastout said:

Exactly, it looks like Ducati "don't need Marquez to win", but that's because he's not been a contender in the last few years purely due to misfortune. Ducati are well aware that if he's not with them he'll be against them, so they had to sign him. If Ducati signed JM and then lost titles to MM for sure some people at Ducati would have had to be sacked for making stupid recruitment decisions.

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I had this feeling when repsol honda signed Lorenzo thst they did it to eliminate the competition by having them in their own team

warthog1 said:

Marquez has nerve on the bike and off it

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Yes you can play hard when you have plenty of opitons

synn said:

If you want secrets, poach engineers, not riders.

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What manufacturers need, in particular Honda is overall thinking so each development doesn't impact other aspects of the bike. This is why Gigi should be the highest paid non rider in MotoGP

michaelm said:

Not Gigi though. If they could get him they would have

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I suspect that Gigi could name his price

p4p1 said:

Aero isn’t completely gone from 2027 onwards

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They are still going to have some aero, just reduced due to limitations on where they can put it ie different maximum dimensions

ApriliaRS250 said:

Maybe part of the negotiation with signing marquez included allowing prosecco for his third and probably last title, as martin will stop to get updates. Peccer might have seen his chance and agreed to that. Acosta is coming and he probably cant win against neither marquez nor martin when in the same team, so it might be the move that pleased 2 out of 3 riders, instead 1 of 3. its make hay while the sun shines for bagnaia. Im sure this negotiation included a strict no alcohol clause during summer break

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Audi have said they want MM

synn said:

A few months ago, he did an interview where he said he hoped the 2027 engines would be an ICE+ electric combo a-la F1.

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In F1 they call this energy return. Ducati wanted it and I think they were right but not biggie either way

synn said:

Bez stayed with VR46 this year because he didn’t want to give up the family atmosphere to go to another satellite team. But a factory contract is another matter, and VR46 will gladly let him go.

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Bez made a mistake but who would of known that the GP24 was such a big step over the GP23

synn said:

I bet if they replaced Moto E with a 250cc two stroke “Nostalgia” cup, viewership would go up 10x.

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I Love two strokes, back in the day I had 2 RD350's (air cooled vintage) Both brought cheap, the first one in New Zealand had expansion chambers which I rode around a couple of race tracks on track days (I also had a GS550 to ride around which was faster but not as much fun) and in Australia I had my second RD350 which was stock and tried to kill myself (as you did in your youth) riding fast in places [for those who know Sydney] for example Glaston Gorge while trying to avoid the Police. Nowadays I'm older and boring...

I’ve had an Aprilia RS125 many moons ago and it was probably the best smiles/ hour bike in the world (when it worked).

Nothing beats 2 strokes, a shame future generations will never know what that is like.

mikesbytes said:

Yes you can play hard when you have plenty of opitons

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There were other options but none of them as good. Well played and turning down the second best option at Pramac, with the risk it meant no 2025 Ducati, took balls imo.

synn said:

I’ve had an Aprilia RS125 many moons ago and it was probably the best smiles/ hour bike in the world (when it worked).

Nothing beats 2 strokes, a shame future generations will never know what that is like.

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This was my first proper bike with a full licence. Aprilia AF1 125 Futura, the precursor of the RS. Beautiful, fast, light, fun, popular with girls... it drank a lot of oil though.

Never owned an RD350 but rode two different models. Crazy bike, very powerful and dangerous, suspensions/chassis/brakes not as good as engine (compared to say the Aprilia).

FastinFastout said:

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This was my first proper bike with a full licence. Aprilia AF1 125 Futura, the precursor of the RS. Beautiful, fast, light, fun, popular with girls... it drank a lot of oil though.

Never owned an RD350 but rode two different models. Crazy bike, very powerful and dangerous, suspensions/chassis/brakes not as good as engine (compared to say the Aprilia).

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One of my closest friends had several RDs, which I have ridden. The brakes were shyte and the engines screamed, which was part of the appeal when one was young and stupid.

As you would imagine from my name i love twostrokes too. Have attended the last 250cc donington gp and couldnt be bothered with fourstrokes back then so i left after the 250cc race