2025 Silly Season

synn said:

Yes, I am sure the 2025 bike will have tweaks that cater to Marquez as well, which is absolutely fair.

I do admire Gigi’s mad scientist approach to extracting performance out of a motorcycle, but I am glad the regulations are keeping him somewhat in check. A few months ago, he did an interview where he said he hoped the 2027 engines would be an ICE+ electric combo a-la F1.

I’d just about stop watching at that point.

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I was kind of aghast when he said he was hoping for a hybrid engine for 2027. It's bad enough watching the aero shitshow, but hybrid engines would be horrid. Plus it would drive costs up immensely. Which maybe he doesn't care about since they would no doubt have Audi funding the whole thing since the VW group cares about what they can sell as being road relevant to the board. I don't think hybrid engines are the future for GP because if they were, Honda would have been pushing for them as well as an engineering exercise to figure out what they could learn. I think their F1 endeavor proved everything they needed to learn when it comes to hybrid engines.

Listen, I've got no doubt it would be fascinating from an engineering standpoint, but god would it be .... to watch. With F1 being what it is, MotoGP --especially being owned by Liberty Media now-- needs to stay away from that sort of ..... I don't have a problem with the switch to 850cc engines, but I'll be curious what happens with the aero setup. Plus with most rider contracts only being good till then, we might get a huge shakeup on not only the engineering side of things, but also the rider market. However, I suspect Ducati will deliver a rocketship in 2027. Question will be where do the other factories shakeout.

mikesbytes said:

Never understood Honda's logic on making the bike incompatible with Hayden

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HRC weren’t considering Hayden when they started making changes in 2005-2006. Fuel capacity had been reduced and displacement and capacity would be further reduced in 2007. Honda were pursuing a concept that they believed would be made manifest by the rules changes. When Hayden took a big lead into the summer break, HRC supposedly got extra greedy and made even bigger changes, but maybe that was always the plan.

I don’t think it was about Pedro either. He was just the person paid to ride a bike that was built to a fantasy idea. That 800cc and 21L of fuel would lead to cornerspeed bikes and accelerating on the side of Michelin’s superior rear tire. Needless to say, the exact opposite occurred. It took 2-3 years for Honda to recover, and then they had to pay Stoner to ride the bike to its potential.

michaelm said:

I haven’t followed what they have been doing engine wise, but if the current engine is still a version of the engine they had when they had their own ECU then a ground up re-design is what they have always needed imo. Nakamoto said way back then that a spec ECU would kill Honda, and threatened to withdraw.

I consider Lex to have a point that aero is counter to Honda ‘s engineering philosophy, but they are also going to need to go aero to succeed in the remaining years of this formula imo.

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The current rules strike me as a rehash of the 800s. Honda and Yamaha are flat footed. They were not aware of how Ducati planned to change the game (this time without Bridgestone). HRC/Yam lack of competitiveness is not really caused by engine performance or chassis dynamics so they can’t just flip a switch and close the gap. Ride height and aero have re-written the engineering playbook, and these changes are antithetical to the Japanese notion of sports motorcycling.

To the Japanese, ride height and aero are pointless and irresponsible use of resources. To Ducati, these systems equal wins and technological progress which which will be used to goad customers into spending premium prices.

The Japanese realize that Europe is hacking the industry the Japanese more or less created. Part of HRC wants to save face and learn this new aero/ride-height discipline, while another part of them wants to slam the ban hammer on the negotiating table. The issue is that the Japanese cartel is falling apart. Kawasaki and Suzuki are gone. Yamaha is not big enough or profitable enough to offset the expanding European companies. If BMW join, it’s basically checkmate. Europe will have its own Honda in the GPC and SBKC.

HRC are basically being forced to watch people blunder away the sport and industry that they built, while also being confronted with the reality that it’s happening because the Japanese cartel made several serious blunders. Full steam ahead towards the cliff and hope you learn how to make it fly before you get there? Or batten down the hatches and don’t come up for air until the sport destroys itself? Or something else?

The 850cc euro will not be the same as the 800cc wrap because there’s a bore limit.

synn said:

The 850cc euro will not be the same as the 800cc wrap because there’s a bore limit.

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Agree. The current 1000cc ride height rules are like the 800’s insofar as the Japanese manufacturers are somewhat reluctant to deal with what they’ve ratified.

They believed, imo, that hydraulic ride height was a parlor trick similar to the early-90s. Then Ducati showed their hand, and HRC realized they inadvertently gave the store away. No Doohan or Rossi or Marquez or anyone is going to be the difference maker in this formula, not until all of the bikes are within a tenth of each other.

Synn my apologies for being a hard ass to you on your return to the forum. I was expecting something different. You have been a great addition to the forum. My bad.

mikesbytes said:

Nowadays I'm older and boring...

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And still alive !

MdubSTYLIE said:

Synn my apologies for being a hard ass to you on your return to the forum. I was expecting something different. You have been a great addition to the forum. My bad.

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No worries, happy to be here and have productive conversations!

mylexicon said:

Ride height and aero have re-written the engineering playbook, and these changes are antithetical to the Japanese notion of sports motorcycling.

To the Japanese, ride height and aero are pointless and irresponsible use of resources. To Ducati, these systems equal wins and technological progress which which will be used to goad customers into spending premium prices.

The Japanese realize that Europe is hacking the industry the Japanese more or less created. Part of HRC wants to save face and learn this new aero/ride-height discipline, while another part of them wants to slam the ban hammer on the negotiating table. The issue is that the Japanese cartel is falling apart. Kawasaki and Suzuki are gone. Yamaha is not big enough or profitable enough to offset the expanding European companies. If BMW join, it’s basically checkmate. Europe will have its own Honda in the GPC and SBKC.

HRC are basically being forced to watch people blunder away the sport and industry that they built, while also being confronted with the reality that it’s happening because the Japanese cartel made several serious blunders.

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Motorcycle racing, Grand Prix style started in Europe, and it was the European bikes that were the dominant forces until both the British and Italian brands called it quits by the early seventies.

The Japanese, through hard work and industrial espionage, took over the smaller classes, and when MV Augusta dropped out, became sole supplier of bikes.

Ducati, Aprilia and KTM have merely evolved what is possible, and considering how much faster the bikes are, they have developed in the right direction, since racing is about reaching the finishing line quickest.

The Japanese have a different way of development, they historically are a top down hierarchy, while the European brands are less so. The races and testing being mostly done on European tracks also helps the European brands.

It’s all cyclical.

in the first wave, Europeans set the paradigm of passion and backyard engineering.

Then the Japanese came with ruthless manufacturing efficiency and damn near drove the Europeans out of business, on track and in the showroom.

Now the tide has turned again and the Europeans are showing what’s possible with aero and the Japanese are caught on the back foot.

Let’s see in 10 years if the pendulum
swings back. If not, Darwin is right again.

Well this is interesting…

He's a good friend of Fabio. I guess Fabio is the one pushing for this.

MichaelBolton said:

He's a good friend of Fabio. I guess Fabio is the one pushing for this.

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The Andorra cartel lol

In other news, strong rumors of Maverick having said no to Aprilia, presumably to sign as a Honda rider for a fortune. Boneheaded move IMO (for both Mav and Honda), although there's a possibility Aprilia is lowballing him now that they've got Martín. I imagine they'll go after one of Bezzecchi or DiGia.

MichaelBolton said:

In other news, strong rumors of Maverick having said no to Aprilia, presumably to sign as a Honda rider for a fortune. Boneheaded move IMO (for both Mav and Honda), although there's a possibility Aprilia is lowballing him now that they've got Martín. I imagine they'll go after one of Bezzecchi or DiGia.

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Not surprised, Maverick has 2, maybe 3 good years left in him at the top level. He’s probably looking at the best payday until retirement. Which I totally understand.

It’s also a good thing for Aprilia potentially. A Martin+ Bastianini/ Bez lineup would be absolutely box office for them.

This is prototype racing, it is supposed to be about cutting edge development and thinking outside the box. The rules are changing, but there is still going to be aero development, and engineers looking at every way possible to bend the rules in their favor.

ApriliaRS250 said:

as martin will stop to get updates.

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Has this been confirmed? Just sucks if it's true.

There’s been talk that Audi told Ducati to choose MM

JPSLotus said:

I was kind of aghast when he said he was hoping for a hybrid engine for 2027. It's bad enough watching the aero shitshow, but hybrid engines would be horrid. Plus it would drive costs up immensely. Which maybe he doesn't care about since they would no doubt have Audi funding the whole thing since the VW group cares about what they can sell as being road relevant to the board. I don't think hybrid engines are the future for GP because if they were, Honda would have been pushing for them as well as an engineering exercise to figure out what they could learn. I think their F1 endeavor proved everything they needed to learn when it comes to hybrid engines.

Listen, I've got no doubt it would be fascinating from an engineering standpoint, but god would it be .... to watch. With F1 being what it is, MotoGP --especially being owned by Liberty Media now-- needs to stay away from that sort of ..... I don't have a problem with the switch to 850cc engines, but I'll be curious what happens with the aero setup. Plus with most rider contracts only being good till then, we might get a huge shakeup on not only the engineering side of things, but also the rider market. However, I suspect Ducati will deliver a rocketship in 2027. Question will be where do the other factories shakeout.

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and the bike would be horrendously heavy with the batteries which doesnt bode well for safety

I own a couple cars, one is electric, and I think it's fantastic. It would be better if the whole thing were a lot more analog, as it were, but it's still ridiculously quick. I think an electric motorcycle could be fantastic, but the energy density on the batteries needs to be significantly better. If they could build something with 120-150 HP, 100 mile range at ~80 MPH, with fast changing and weighing not much over 400 lbs, then I might be interested. I expect we'll get there, but it's going to take a while.

Sennas_Caress said:

Motorcycle racing, Grand Prix style started in Europe, and it was the European bikes that were the dominant forces until both the British and Italian brands called it quits by the early seventies.

The Japanese, through hard work and industrial espionage, took over the smaller classes, and when MV Augusta dropped out, became sole supplier of bikes.

Ducati, Aprilia and KTM have merely evolved what is possible, and considering how much faster the bikes are, they have developed in the right direction, since racing is about reaching the finishing line quickest.

The Japanese have a different way of development, they historically are a top down hierarchy, while the European brands are less so. The races and testing being mostly done on European tracks also helps the European brands.

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My only concern is the segue used to arrest control of the sport. Ride height is explicitly banned, and it’s been a dead end. A coordinated race to the bottom that culminates in the sale of the sport to a reality-tv sports empire is a precarious situation.

Whatever. Things change. But the signs hint that GP and the underlying industry could devolve into a plaything for plutocrats, not a serious business for sportsmen, but we’ll see. The 2027 formula and upcoming SBK rules could turn the sport in a different direction.