Rising Sun
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Rising Sun, on 16 Oct 2013 - 08:31, said:
MultiQuoting again... should be fun!
Ah yes, allowing for condescending responses with relative anonymity perhaps? What about multiquoting the same person, you think I could get away with a bit of condescension? Nah, won't even try it. But I will say, I find it hilarious that you would characterize Michaelm's post this way, as to me that would be a bit like calling Mother Teresa stingy. (
"But this reply of yours I find condescending, which also deserves a reply in kind:...") Bat's OP was clearly just a bit of gloating, I'm sure you were aware, replying with a quip...not exactly unexpected. Oh come on, it was funny.
Before I go any further, you should be aware that I consider you and your contributions to the forum right up there on the podium of brilliance. But earlier today I didn't have the time to reply properly. Now, its close to midnight, the kids and wifely are asleep, the Dodger's won their game to hold on for the pennant chase, all is quite, so here you go.
Rising Sun
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Rising Sun, on 16 Oct 2013 - 08:31, said:
Yeah, I've heard of the Yankees. A few years ago Matsui used to play for them, and now Ichiro does. Mladin and Nieto in the same breath? Everyone's entitled to an opinion, I suppose. To me, Mladin was a failure in Grand Prix racing and Nieto a success, so I can see how you can use them both to make points about racing, actually.
Why suppose? I am aware of both MMladin's & ANieto's accomplishments in the sport of moto-roadracing, I perceive many similarities and, as you suggest, differences. Fact is, neither accomplished the ultimate goal, and for me that makes them more similar than different. Mladin according to you was a failure of 'grand prix' racing, ah, by this reasoning, Nieto was a 'failure' of superbike racing. Truth be told, I find the connotation of big boy superbikes more remarkable that junior class GP. In addition, Mladin was clearly coherent about why he wouldn't stick out a run in the top class of grand prix racing, I personally found/find his analysis credible (and certainly given the state of GP, quite plausible). What was Neito's excuse? I don't have anything against Angel Nieto, but for the sake of argument here only. Perhaps for Mladin it came down to this, If you're gonna put your .... on the line, the prospects of wining would/should go into the equation. Not true for everybody's sensibilities though eh, .... Hopkins rode around on a ...... bike in GP and rode his heart out for it (or as KRjr put it: 'he was willing to commit suicide for one extra mid-pack position'. Which he did ironically against Junior on the fateful 03 season opener, but more on that later). Commendable yes, but I can see the good sense in Mladin's wisdom now in my middle age. In my younger years, I cursed him for being chicken-.... mind you.
Rising Sun
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Rising Sun, on 16 Oct 2013 - 08:31, said:
You don't care about the 'lower classes'? Proves the point I made in the Top Ten: if the Spanish would .... off back to those 'lower' classes they had previously concentrated on, all of this bitching and moaning about WWE and MotoSpain ........ would vanish in a cloud of let's return to our previously-scheduled Anglo/American/Italian/Australian domination.
Read again what I said friend. I'll repost it here, I said: "
Sun/Mike, 'lower' class titles are minor leagues. I personally dont care much for them at all..." I don't care for lower category 'titles'. I care about the lower categories, as they are interesting and entertaining, but their titles don't mean much of anything other than the recipient may be ready for the next category, ultimately the premier class. After all, we are talking about a progression here. Your point is not "proven" at all! And I should point out, this IS a better example of what is condescending. Not sure how you have concluded you have "proved" anything, and with all due respect, your allegation is more cynical than the one your are attempting to refute. I find it odd you wouldn't lob something more signifant than simply calling my assertion of Dorna's machinates "........" coupled with your smug reproach that its drawn from English elitism (though you did include Italian, ha.)
You seemed to have taken quite the issue with the pushback to the OP regarding the Spanish junior/lower category success, but I concur with Mikem on this one, success in these categories is nice, but in terms of Big League success, it simply doesn't amount to jack .... my good sir.
Rising Sun
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Rising Sun, on 16 Oct 2013 - 08:31, said:
I care about the history of the 125s and the 250s (less about Moto3 and Moto2, but that's my axe to grind with Dorna). Simoncelli's championship in 2008 and Aoyama's in 2009 were more interesting to me than Rossi's back-to-back. Couldn't really get all that excited about KR Jnr's title in 2000, either, but Nakano/Jacque/Kato/Ukawa in the 250s was something to behold. I even found the panicked, green-scarfed teen and his Italian mates vs the angry Dutchman or Cardus' title hopes collapsing into a pit-lane dummy spit because of a broken shifter as compelling as the battle between Gardner/Doohan/Rainey and Schwantz at the Island in 1990.
As you see, I spoke of their titles. I care about the lower categories; I just don't put much stock in the "titles" other than they may mean the rider is ready to move on. But don't make the mistake that I'm not aware or watch the lower categories with interest, particularly as it pertains to history. My respected and admired friend Arrabi asked me, 'did I not watch Kato in 250s?' Yes, of course. Rising Sun, did you know Kato had many mini-moto titles? He did, and this catapulted him entry to the lower categories of GP. With due reverence to his memory, I ask you, are you going to count these as significant titles? Of course not, because there is an inherent understanding that these are stepping stones in a work in progress. The aim is to move on. And so is the connotation for junior/lower category titles.
Are national titles to be held in the same regard as grand prix junior titles? Interesting that Arrabi brought up Daijiro Kato, coupled with your persistence about caring for 250s above; as I was actually reflecting on his death this weekend given that the F1 race was held at Suzuka. I remember the fatal 03 race well for various reason, particularly given that Nicky Hayden debuted in MotoGP. (Incidentally, so did Edwards, Bayliss, and young John Hopkins in his second year, debuting on the four strokes. Sorry, OCD, but Ducati also made its debut, and quite impressively). Consider this, for all of Kato's dominant and record braking 2001 250 title, he was still made to 'prove' himself on a NSR500. He didn't win any races, understandably, but at least for 03 he would be on the RCV990. Ironically, along side the American national superbike title holder, Nicky Hayden (who started literally from the back of the grid and would end up battling with the reigning Wsbk champ for 5th? or so). My point, the premier category is the Major Leagues, the Big Time, and anything before that is the junior/ minors, and not much more.
If you are still not impressed with my rationale, consider this: Is Marc Marquez still the best Moto2 rider? Just because he has moved on does not mean he wouldn't be capable of another Moto2 title if he were made to compete exclusively for one, right? Its likely if he had remained this year in Moto2, he would have earned the title, and how about the next year, and the next year? Why would you put so much stock in, for example, Angel Nieto's accomplishments, for a rider who remained in a junior class? Had Kato remained in 250s, would he have continued to win 250 titles? Biaggi won 4 250 titles, had he remained, could he have won a 5th? Interestingly, Biaggi is a good case in point of how junior class titles do not quite have the universal appeal you are trying to assign these lower category titles. Hence why Schwantz declared of Pedrosa, (paraphrasing) '8 years on a works machine and he still has not won'. Won what exactly? Is not Pedrosa a world champion?
Rising Sun
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Rising Sun, on 16 Oct 2013 - 08:31, said:
But, hey, whatever floats your boat. You peddle that Dorna groupthink line about silly junior classes squeezed full of teens who are taken out and shot if they don't make it to MotoGP before the age of 22.
I've said Josh Hayes deserves a seat in MotoGP, regardless of his age. Its ........ that he hasn't been seriously considered because of it, as clearly the talent is there. Btw, Hopkins was 19 when he lined up with Kato on that fateful day. Those who havent won their respective lower class titles, I have no issued staying and trying another day, but those who have won, they should move on. So I don't what the heck you're talking about regarding age here. On your other point, I am willing and prepared to substantively debate my assertion I often "peddle" about Dorna, the private entity's influence on the sport. As I said, I consider your contributions on PS worthy of the podium of brilliance (and not some ........ CRT podium either). So with all due respect, you'll need a bit more substance rather than just hot-air to blow this tin-foil sombrero off my head amigo.
