Yearly tally

I get exactly what your saying Jumkie, and I could agree with you on most of it, but only if I got into a certain mind set, and I try not to.   Unfortunately, in my POV, most of the world has turned to a capitalist money making pile of .....  There is nothing anymore that is done for the sole purpose of enjoyment, or satisfaction in it's purest form.  Everything is tied to a money making scheme.  Everything, from the most mundane has been tied into big business.  I guess that is progress, or the lack of proper regulations in certain aspects of life.  


 


What I just wrote is unfortunately how I see things, but I don't try to live my day to day with that way of thinking.  I'd be bad for me and others.  When things get too commercial for me, I piss off and tap into the next little known adventure.  How's that all relate to GP?  I guess I might try to ignore what you perceive to be a spoon fed event.  I'm sure there are advantages that happen to some, but are negated to others, but that's the way the cards are sometimes dealt.  And like you said, there is nothing "little we" can do about it.  So instead of getting all worked up and pissed at a situation, I can either enjoy it or piss off and forget it (Vespa Racing is Legit!!).  I guess it helps if one of your nationalities is whooping ...!  


 


But you must admit, CEV has been working it's ... of for the last 10-15 years and doing an amazing job.  There has no other country investing in lower classes like Spain.  And this was not Repsol backed or Dorna.  It might be now, but previously it wasn't.  


 




And a quick answer to Chopper-  If Spain was not looting and murdering in South America back in the day, it would have been Portugal, England, or whoever had gotten there first.  England took care of much of that in the North and Portugal in parts of South America and Africa.  Belgium and Germany took it's share there too.  GB had good parts of Asia and Oceania under their rule.  And you know that it wasn't pretty for the locals in any of those areas either!


 


And most importantly, the mix of Spanish and Indigenous American blood made for some beautiful people.  Can you imagine the pale skinned, ...... teeth, thin haired mess South America would be if GB had done the raping and pillaging there!  Ughhhh.

baturro.

But you must admit, CEV has been working it's ... of for the last 10-15

years and doing an amazing job.  There has no other country investing in

lower classes like Spain.  And this was not Repsol backed or Dorna.  It

might be now, but previously it wasn't.

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No, it was the spanish Telecom giant Telifonica i believe.




 

And a quick answer to Chopper-  If Spain was not looting and

murdering in South America back in the day, it would have been Portugal,

England, or whoever had gotten there first.  England took care of much

of that in the North and Portugal in parts of South America and Africa.

 Belgium and Germany took it's share there too.  GB had good parts of

Asia and Oceania under their rule.  And you know that it wasn't pretty

for the locals in any of those areas either!


 

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And most importantly, the mix of Spanish and Indigenous American

blood made for some beautiful people.  Can you imagine the pale skinned,

...... teeth, thin haired mess South America would be if GB had done

the raping and pillaging there!  Ughhhh.

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Britain didn't murder them, we just put them to work. If you look at the old British empire countrys now compared to spains you will see most of the Ex British are quite successful. Name me one ex spanish that's worth a .... ?


 


For the record though, i take your above comments as meant with a degree of banter and humour as i'm sure you took my comments.

baturro

3636951381871462

I get exactly what your saying Jumkie, and I could agree with you on most of it...

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Good exchange Bat, as I 've said, you are a very level headed person, even if you prefer Pedro to Lorenzo.


 
baturro

3636951381871462

And most importantly, the mix of Spanish and Indigenous American blood made for some beautiful people.  Can you imagine the pale skinned, ...... teeth, thin haired mess South America would be if GB had done the raping and pillaging there!  Ughhhh.

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Yes, I can imagine, they're called Argentinians.

Jumkie

3636991381873190

Good exchange Bat, as I 've said, you are a very level headed person, even if you prefer Pedro to Lorenzo.


 


 


 


Yes, I can imagine, they're called Argentinians.

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hahahahahahaha.

baturro is the sacrificial lamb on PS for Spanish motorcycle racing

eltoro

3637011381873343

baturro is the sacrificial lamb on PS for Spanish motorcycle racing

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I'm sure baturro laughed his head off when he started the spanish love thread. Knowing full will he was fishing in a well stocked fish tank.  My main concern for Spain is the likelihood the country maybe running out of sore throat lozenges . The whole country cheering and screaming after every single race.

chopperman

3637021381874039

I'm sure baturro laughed his head off when he started the spanish love thread. Knowing full will he was fishing in a well stocked fish tank.  My main concern for Spain is the likelihood the country maybe running out of sore throat lozenges . The whole country cheering and screaming after every single race.

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No worries compa, they prefer sucking .... and the ensuing throat treatment that cums with it, for this particular ailment.  The hemorrhoids they get from putting so many butts on the seats at GPs is treated in comparable fashion I'm told.

chopperman

3636811381858992

Rome wasn't built in a day. Back when Rossi was the golden boy he was very marketable, even in spain. To have spanish riders as marketable was the long term plan that is now the case.

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I agree, Rome wasn't built in a day: the Spanish have developed the sport at all levels patiently for years, and apparently better than others. There are so many verifiable facts confirming their effort over many years, and none supporting far fetched conspiracy theories... Italy used to fill the premier class podium 10 years ago, remember? Biaggi, Capirossi, Rossi were like Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Marquez. There was no conspiracy then, there is none now.

J4rn0

3637051381874408

I agree, Rome wasn't built in a day: the Spanish have developed the sport at all levels patiently for years, and apparently better than others. There are so many verifiable facts confirming their effort over many years, and none supporting far fetched conspiracy theories... Italy used to fill the premier class podium 10 years ago, remember? Biaggi, Capirossi, Rossi were like Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Marquez. There was no conspiracy then, there is none now.

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Ok, maybe your correct, maybe not. Thats see what happens in the future with Pol Aspagero and Scott Redding regarding the rides they get offered in the premier class. And as i remember no rules were scrapped at the last second for those Italian riders you listed. That imo is where Dorna showed their hand.

J4rn0

3637051381874408

 

I agree, Rome wasn't built in a day: the Spanish have developed the sport at all levels patiently for years, and apparently better than others. There are so many verifiable facts confirming their effort over many years, and none supporting far fetched conspiracy theories... Italy used to fill the premier class podium 10 years ago, remember? Biaggi, Capirossi, Rossi were like Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Marquez. There was no conspiracy then, there is none now.

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.........The "Spanish" havent done .... particularly extraordinary other than be owned by the same entity that brings us GP.


Btw, if they have concentrated on making MotoGP champions, they're doing a piss poor job of it. One solitary champ since Creville. The new champ elect needed quite the blind eye (no pun) to get in the position. More than the supposed Spanish academies, they needed Stoner to retire and Dorna to erase pesky rules. That doesn't quite reflect well on a collective effort to produce anything now does it.

Jumkie

3637131381879418

.........The "Spanish" havent done .... particularly extraordinary other than be owned by the same entity that brings us GP.


Btw, if they have concentrated on making MotoGP champions, they're doing a piss poor job of it. One solitary champ since Creville. The new champ elect needed quite the blind eye (no pun) to get in the position. More than the supposed Spanish academies, they needed Stoner to retire and Dorna to erase pesky rules. That doesn't quite reflect well on a collective effort to produce anything now does it.

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And thats not forget Gibbers. Never came through the traditional feeder series yet jumped straight on the full factory backed Telifonica Honda. How did that happen ?? well it happened because he was spanish and the grandson of Mr Bultaco.

chopperman

3636961381872424

baturro.


No, it was the spanish Telecom giant Telifonica i believe.




 


Britain didn't murder them, we just put them to work. If you look at the old British empire countrys now compared to spains you will see most of the Ex British are quite successful. Name me one ex spanish that's worth a .... ?


 


For the record though, i take your above comments as meant with a degree of banter and humour as i'm sure you took my comments.

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Florida?


Oh wait...

J4rn0

3637051381874408

I agree, Rome wasn't built in a day: the Spanish have developed the sport at all levels patiently for years, and apparently better than others. There are so many verifiable facts confirming their effort over many years, and none supporting far fetched conspiracy theories... Italy used to fill the premier class podium 10 years ago, remember? Biaggi, Capirossi, Rossi were like Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Marquez. There was no conspiracy then, there is none now.

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I wasn't watching all that long ago but I'm assuming in all the classes, the majority of riders wern't Italian as we see today with the majority of riders that are Spanish?

akeizm

3637191381881208

I wasn't watching all that long ago but I'm assuming in all the classes, the majority of riders wern't Italian as we see today with the majority of riders that are Spanish?

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The lower classes were always pretty heavy with Spanish and Italian riders. There were never many Aussie or US riders racing in 125s or 250s. The Japanese riders are probably the most noticeable nationality that was there before but not so much now.

Jumkie

3637131381879418

.........The "Spanish" havent done .... particularly extraordinary other than be owned by the same entity that brings us GP.


Btw, if they have concentrated on making MotoGP champions, they're doing a piss poor job of it. One solitary champ since Creville. The new champ elect needed quite the blind eye (no pun) to get in the position. More than the supposed Spanish academies, they needed Stoner to retire and Dorna to erase pesky rules. That doesn't quite reflect well on a collective effort to produce anything now does it.

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OR, you can say after the end of 2013, a Spaniard has won 3 of the last 4 Moto GP championships.  Its all in how you word it. Italy only had one solitary champ since Uncini.

Dorna is no country.  Ultimately, Dorna as a business is looking for the best.  


 


The RFME (Real Federacion de Motocyclismo) put an extraordinary amount of effort in the CEV.  Where the funds came from makes no difference.  The depth of field in CEV is second to none.  This national championship is where the best now comes from.  And it is not always Spanish.  


 


FIM (Federacione Italiana MOto...) could well have done a similar thing at the time or before.  There are beautiful tracks there with great facilities and similar weather to Spain, but there is no "CIM" that produces anything of relevance.  WHY??  VR, Capi, Biaggi, and to a lesser extent Melandri, Dovi and Simoncelli are all examples of Italian product.  If it wasn't for age, in the case of Capi, MB, VR, the Ducati disaster of Melandry and the tragic death of Marco, the GP would be dominated by the Mediterranean.  


 


This is what I mean by countries sleeping on the job and allowing Spain to become the sole competitive feeder championship.  We as spectators can do very little.  But our local federations and local sponsors can definitely do something make their local championships the best.  Make the kids want to go to their championship to be the best.  


 


There was once an obscure energy drink company from a little country in central europe.  They decided they wanted to start a motorsport team in F1.  They had no history and were competing agains the best of the best with great resources and a history with the FIA from the beginning.  Red Bull Racing has whooped up on Ferrari, McClaren, Lotus, Mercedes, for the last 4 years.  Was this a miracle, or hard work while other teams wrote them off??  Or is F1 void of conspiracies and WWE choreography?

Rising Sun

3636561381839926

It's hard to say what to make of the comparison between 2013 and 1967.  There are many more rounds today, but back then there were 5 classes.  Whatever the metric, it's a seriously impressive performance by Spanish riders.  The landscape may change a little in Moto3 next year, but expect to see a lot of the red and gold on the podium for Moto2 and MotoGP in 2014.


 


 


I'm sure shenanigans were only invented post 1992.  Who knows, Dorna probably have it trademarked.  Also, if Redding wins the title this year, will 'his' mask fall off and Elena Rosell be found hiding underneath?


 


 


125cc championships: Spain 15, Australia 1.  What's your point?

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I was replying in kind, assuming you were being semi-serious.


 


If you are being serious, premier class championships are the currency, they don't even have several of the lower class championships anymore , and Australians and Americans hardly competed in them or aspired to win them anyway. I would also suggest you don't  count all your chickens yet; maybe MM will win the next 5 titles, maybe the rules will change (again), maybe somebody else will come along. Valentino looked totally invincible at the end of the 2005 season; actually he might well have 10 or more titles by now if he had never left Honda.


 


If you really want an international appendage comparing  contest, Australians have won 8 premier class world championships in what is very much a minority sport in Australia with never any real attempt to develop internationally successful riders. Gardner, Doohan and Stoner were rogue individual talents, and the latter two at least stand comparison with any Spanish rider there has ever been, which was my point if you want me to be blunt as does seem to be your requirement.  

baturro

3637301381898082

Dorna is no country.  Ultimately, Dorna as a business is looking for the best.  

 

The RFME (Real Federacion de Motocyclismo) put an extraordinary amount of effort in the CEV.  Where the funds came from makes no difference.  The depth of field in CEV is second to none.  This national championship is where the best now comes from.  And it is not always Spanish.  

 

FIM (Federacione Italiana MOto...) could well have done a similar thing at the time or before.  There are beautiful tracks there with great facilities and similar weather to Spain, but there is no "CIM" that produces anything of relevance.  WHY??  VR, Capi, Biaggi, and to a lesser extent Melandri, Dovi and Simoncelli are all examples of Italian product.  If it wasn't for age, in the case of Capi, MB, VR, the Ducati disaster of Melandry and the tragic death of Marco, the GP would be dominated by the Mediterranean.  

 

This is what I mean by countries sleeping on the job and allowing Spain to become the sole competitive feeder championship.  We as spectators can do very little.  But our local federations and local sponsors can definitely do something make their local championships the best.  Make the kids want to go to their championship to be the best.  

 

There was once an obscure energy drink company from a little country in central europe.  They decided they wanted to start a motorsport team in F1.  They had no history and were competing agains the best of the best with great resources and a history with the FIA from the beginning.  Red Bull Racing has whooped up on Ferrari, McClaren, Lotus, Mercedes, for the last 4 years.  Was this a miracle, or hard work while other teams wrote them off??  Or is F1 void of conspiracies and WWE choreography?

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Good one. I'll add a minor point. For those who think the CEV is some Spanish closed shop; Foreign riders get free entry if they commit to a full season. OK, the entry fee isn't the major expense, but to me it shows their interest (or understanding of the importance of) getting outside riders in.

chopperman

3637151381880132

And thats not forget Gibbers. Never came through the traditional feeder series yet jumped straight on the full factory backed Telifonica Honda. How did that happen ?? well it happened because he was spanish and the grandson of Mr Bultaco.

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No he didn't - not true at all. Came through the Spanish national series and into 250's in GP and before Gresini had ridden for both factory Honda and Suzuki in 500's. He inherited the 'full' factory honda following the untimely demise of Kato and started at Suzuka on a very customer/satellite RCV which was passed to Kiyo. Sete was legitimately signed again to Honda via Gresini bringing with him his Telefonica Moviestar personal sponsorship. As you have acknowledged, Telefonica was extrodinarily valuable to the series at this time also backing Pedrosa through his 125 and 250 campaigns. They deserted the series after being at loggerheads with Repsol following disputes over rider v team sponsorship rights. Two very large Spanish corporations locking horns over advertising space...be interesting to see how this fitted into the big Spanish gameplan :scratch:  :cc_confused:  :blink: .


 


Doubtless Gibernau's lineage and wealth eased his passage into racing and unquestionably garnered him kudos attention and valuable sponsorship. As I recall - Rainey gave him his break on a 500 and signed him into the big class on a yam. As for Dorna's supposed vested interests in Sete as a Spaniard? I suggest you revisit the 2005 season post Rossi's hex. 

michaelm

3637341381906133

I was replying in kind, assuming you were being semi-serious.


 


If you are being serious, premier class championships are the currency, they don't even have several of the lower class championships anymore , and Australians and Americans hardly competed in them or aspired to win them anyway. I would also suggest you don't  count all your chickens yet; maybe MM will win the next 5 titles, maybe the rules will change (again), maybe somebody else will come along. Valentino looked totally invincible at the end of the 2005 season; actually he might well have 10 or more titles by now if he had never left Honda.


 


If you really want an international appendage comparing  contest, Australians have won 8 premier class world championships in what is very much a minority sport in Australia with never any real attempt to develop internationally successful riders. Gardner, Doohan and Stoner were rogue individual talents, and the latter two at least stand comparison with any Spanish rider there has ever been, which was my point if you want me to be blunt as does seem to be your requirement.  

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Maybe I shouldn't MultiQuote.  My first point was serious, the second was a joke response to Jumkie's tinfoil sombrero, and the third I was replying in kind, pointing out the absurdity of an international appendage comparing contest (i.e. baturro was talking about success in all classes vs your narrow definition of success in one).


 


But this reply of yours I find condescending, which also deserves a reply in kind: you can piss your assertion that 'premier class championships' are the be all and end all up a wall.  Plenty of 50-80-125-250-350 championships have been harder fought and often on more even playing fields than watching Ago or Doohan or Rossi run rings around their competition.  Aussies and Yanks hardly competed in or aspired to win in the 'lower' classes?  Not only is that statement utter bollocks (since a great many riders did), but it's also awfully convenient for you to hand wave away statistics not in your favour.  As for MM, who's counting chickens? I'll watch the coming seasons with interest, like I have for the previous 30 (damn... now I feel old, thanks), but I won't be losing any sleep over how many titles the f-GOAT does or doesn't win.


 


Previously we were in agreement that Stoner falls short of legend status, so I'm not sure why you now think he stands comparison with Angel Nieto.  Oh, wait, he didn't win any 'premier class' titles; he can .... right off, then.