Yearly tally

Also - for all his drama queen tantrums and phony posturing, Sete was a damn good rider. His nemesis was not so much Rossi on track - rather his head and the mindgames that Vale installed there.


 


I remember Sete for some fine races in '03 and '04 - (most noteably when he beat Valentino at Sachsenring) and a brilliant ride on the Suzuki in the wet at Valencia in 2001.


 


I also remember him for his hapless comic value and as the perfect straightman/foil to the custard coloured clown. If you don't remember or have forgotten the details of the 2005 WC or weren't watching then, I urge you to secure this comedic jewel. Many an evening's entertainment for Austin and I when he was working at MCN (in between the Boz Bro's VHS archive man crush fests').


 


...That sounded very wrong.


 


I feel a top ten most memorable Sete moments thread coming on

Rising Sun

3637471381911388

Maybe I shouldn't MultiQuote.  My first point was serious, the second was a joke response to Jumkie's tinfoil sombrero,

Click to expand...

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Rising Sun

3637471381911388

Maybe I shouldn't MultiQuote.  My first point was serious, the second was a joke response to Jumkie's tinfoil sombrero, and the third I was replying in kind, pointing out the absurdity of an international appendage comparing contest (i.e. baturro was talking about success in all classes vs your narrow definition of success in one).


 


But this reply of yours I find condescending, which also deserves a reply in kind: you can piss your assertion that 'premier class championships' are the be all and end all up a wall.  Plenty of 50-80-125-250-350 championships have been harder fought and often on more even playing fields than watching Ago or Doohan or Rossi run rings around their competition.  Aussies and Yanks hardly competed in or aspired to win in the 'lower' classes?  Not only is that statement utter bollocks (since a great many riders did), but it's also awfully convenient for you to hand wave away statistics not in your favour.  As for MM, who's counting chickens? I'll watch the coming seasons with interest, like I have for the previous 30 (damn... now I feel old, thanks), but I won't be losing any sleep over how many titles the f-GOAT does or doesn't win.


 


Previously we were in agreement that Stoner falls short of legend status, so I'm not sure why you now think he stands comparison with Angel Nieto.  Oh, wait, he didn't win any 'premier class' titles; he can .... right off, then.

Click to expand...

My apology is to Baturro rather than you.


 


I shouldn't reply rapidly at work to multiquotes; I thought I was replying to Baturro on a point of Spanish nationalism rather than to you. While you both have a sense of humour superior to mine, yours particularly demonstrable in your fabled pinned thread, I should have realised that Baturro would have taken my initial post as a reply in kind.


 


I am probably a similar age to you and have probably also followed the sport almost as long, but have never been particularly interested in the junior classes, doubtless reflective of a deep fault in my character.  Just from my general knowledge, and my participation in motogp forums these last several years, I obviously acknowledge Angel Nieto's status in the sport which would seem to  definitely exceed Stoner's and arguably even Doohan's.


 


My general point in logic I stand by, that Spain surpasses Australia in junior class gp bike racing (particularly 50/80 cc racing) in the same way that Italy surpasses Australia in the sport of bocce.

RSun/Mike, 'lower' class titles are minor leagues. I personally dont care much for them at all, not sure why anybody does past indication that these riders are ready for the big time. Mini-moto, and ninja 250 cups are "hard fought" which makes them entertaining, but significant they are not. I've never heard of anybody bragging about double-A & triple-A ball, but I bet across the world people have heard of Yankees. Why? Because their success is in the Major Leagues. Angel Nieto is to me like Maldin, used to make particular points about racing here and there.

Jumkie

3637711381931377

Sun/Mike, 'lower' class titles are minor leagues. I personally dont care much for them at all, not sure why anybody does past indication that these riders are ready for the big time. Mini-moto, and ninja 250 cups are "hard fought" which makes them entertaining, but significant they are not. I've never heard of anybody bragging about double-A & triple-A ball, but I bet across the world people have heard of Yankees. Why? Because their success is in the Major Leagues. Angel Nieto is to me like Maldin, used to make particular points about racing here and there.

Click to expand...

You just ruined Arnaud Vincent's day.


 


....! did you watch Daijiro in 2001?


 


Does this mean that Valentino is now relegated to being a seven times World Champion?...ah the ignominy!

baturro

3636951381871462

 Unfortunately, in my POV, most of the world has turned to a capitalist money making pile of .....  There is nothing anymore that is done for the sole purpose of enjoyment, or satisfaction in it's purest form. .

Click to expand...

 


Wanking.


 


Not you, pleasuring for the sole purpose of enjoyment, etc., etc.

chopperman

3636961381872424

 Britain didn't murder them, we just put them to work. If you look at the old British empire countrys now compared to spains you will see most of the Ex British are quite successful. Name me one ex spanish that's worth a .... ?

Click to expand...

 


Argentina, Uruguay.

baturro

3637301381898082

 There was once an obscure energy drink company from a little country in central europe.  They decided they wanted to start a motorsport team in F1.  They had no history and were competing agains the best of the best with great resources and a history with the FIA from the beginning.  Red Bull Racing has whooped up on Ferrari, McClaren, Lotus, Mercedes, for the last 4 years.  Was this a miracle, or hard work while other teams wrote them off??  Or is F1 void of conspiracies and WWE choreography?

Click to expand...

 


RBR bought a complete team, chassis, engines, engineers, mechanics and support crew. They didn't appear from nowhere. They also brought their staff across from Sauber, where they had been involved for nearly ten years. 


 


Jackie Stewart built that team, Mateschitz put $400M into making it competitive.


 


Saying 'they had no history' is indicates more that you don't know the history of RBR, Stewart, Ford, Jaguar and Cosworth. Sorry, but your analogy is very flawed.

Arrabbiata1

3637411381908931

No he didn't - not true at all. Came through the Spanish national series and into 250's in GP and before Gresini had ridden for both factory Honda and Suzuki in 500's. He inherited the 'full' factory honda following the untimely demise of Kato and started at Suzuka on a very customer/satellite RCV which was passed to Kiyo. Sete was legitimately signed again to Honda via Gresini bringing with him his Telefonica Moviestar personal sponsorship. As you have acknowledged, Telefonica was extrodinarily valuable to the series at this time also backing Pedrosa through his 125 and 250 campaigns. They deserted the series after being at loggerheads with Repsol following disputes over rider v team sponsorship rights. Two very large Spanish corporations locking horns over advertising space...be interesting to see how this fitted into the big Spanish gameplan :scratch:  :cc_confused:  :blink: .


 


Doubtless Gibernau's lineage and wealth eased his passage into racing and unquestionably garnered him kudos attention and valuable sponsorship. As I recall - Rainey gave him his break on a 500 and signed him into the big class on a yam. As for Dorna's supposed vested interests in Sete as a Spaniard? I suggest you revisit the 2005 season post Rossi's hex. 

Click to expand...

Well that's no how i like to remember him. Excuse me for trying to improve history ! Either way he is still an ....... !

chopperman

3637791381934230

Well that's no how i like to remember him. Excuse me for trying to improve history ! Either way he is still an ....... !

Click to expand...

As I recall your main objection was the constant gesturing to the camera and the pointing to the sky and the No.74

My analogy is not flawed.  Maybe a little dramatic with the zero history...


 


A country or motorcycling federation, with the right funding and will power can do the same thing RBR did.  Invest in the best equipment, build the best facilities, poach the best personnel, etc.  Make their championship appealing to the up and comers, or at least halt their young stars from heading to the CEV for a proper education.  There are many countries with a 2 wheel racing pedigree, history, that have recently done squat against Spain.  But they have the history and resources to build a "team" that can compete and even surpass Spain, like RBR did in F1.  


 


You mention RBR bought a complete team with engine, chassis, the works.  Well Italy or GB could have that with some intelligent investment and coordination.  They both have the infrastructure needed, local fan base, intelligent engineers, and most importantly a passion for motorsport.  


 


The more important question is why didn't Italy or GB become the powerhouse Spain is now?  Why did a lazy, sunbathing, nonworking, donkey herding country from the Mediterranean win the battle for supremacy?  It's not just a conspiracy by Dorna/Spain.  I'm not saying they weren't greedy/sneaky and took full advantage of the situation.  For this to have happened, others had to "drop the ball."


 


Still flawed? 

Arrabbiata1

3637801381934343

As I recall your main objection was the constant gesturing to the camera and the pointing to the sky and the No.74

Click to expand...

Yeah, that used to make me cringe, It was obvious he was using Kato's death for self promotion. I also took a dim view of the Tamada incident at Motegi and the starting grid sand incident at qatar. Strangely Biaggi's team used a broom right in front of gibbers yet he said nothing. He certainly had Butlers ear. Butler sometime after admitted the Tamada punishment was wrong and he acted due to pressure applied by gibbers and team Telifonica. Also i believe it is not against the rules to sweep away marble's ,sand etc just as long as you don't alter the track, for instance put down some rubber drag strip style.

chopperman

3637821381935232

Yeah, that used to make me cringe, It was obvious he was using Kato's death for self promotion. I also took a dim view of the Tamada incident at Motegi and the starting grid sand incident at qatar. Strangely Biaggi's team used a broom right in front of gibbers yet he said nothing. He certainly had Butlers ear. Butler sometime after admitted the Tamada punishment was wrong and he acted due to pressure applied by gibbers and team Telifonica. Also i believe it is not against the rules to sweep away marble's ,sand etc just as long as you don't alter the track, for instance put down some rubber drag strip style.

Click to expand...

Glad you said that last bit because that's precisely what Rossi and his cronies were doing - in addition to the broom, using a scooter to lay down rubber where I don't believe Max did. Rossi attributed the protest to the team and was particularly vociferous about Juan Martinez Gibbers crewchief at the time who he maintained whould have been nowhere had he not 'given him a break'. He also famously said that 'he had been looking for a reason to fall out with Sete for a while' which said it all. It didn't help that Vele crashed out on lap four? when he touched the astroturf. Sete copped the flak for Qatar - as with everything on here, it depends on your perceptions and who you choose to believe.


 


The Tamada incident was great news for Jum Jum because if I remember correctly it promoted Nicky to the rostrum.

Drama sells..

Arrabbiata1

3637831381935564

Glad you said that last bit because that's precisely what Rossi and his cronies were doing - in addition to the broom, using a scooter to lay down rubber where I don't believe Max did. Rossi attributed the protest to the team and was particularly vociferous about Juan Martinez Gibbers crewchief at the time who he maintained whould have been nowhere had he not 'given him a break'. He also famously said that 'he had been looking for a reason to fall out with Sete for a while' which said it all. It didn't help that Vele crashed out on lap four? when he touched the astroturf. Sete copped the flak for Qatar - as with everything on here, it depends on your perceptions and who you choose to believe.


 


The Tamada incident was great news for Jum Jum because if I remember correctly it promoted Nicky to the rostrum.

Click to expand...

Well my memory differs somewhat from yours. Rossi and team said they only used their feet to brush away sand while team Biaggi used a broom. I think there may have been scooters on the track which is not uncommon but there were no signs of "layed down" rubber on any of the starting points.

MultiQuoting again... should be fun!


 
Arrabbiata1

3637481381913373

I feel a top ten most memorable Sete moments thread coming on

Click to expand...

 


It would make a fine companion piece to the one on Max.  In fact, I'd pay good money to see it; you can collect it from Jumkie, Barbedwirebiker, et al


 
michaelm

3637501381913814

I shouldn't reply rapidly at work to multiquotes; I thought I was replying to Baturro on a point of Spanish nationalism rather than to you. While you both have a sense of humour superior to mine, yours particularly demonstrable in your fabled pinned thread, I should have realised that Baturro would have taken my initial post as a reply in kind.


 


I am probably a similar age to you and have probably also followed the sport almost as long, but have never been particularly interested in the junior classes, doubtless reflective of a deep fault in my character.  Just from my general knowledge, and my participation in motogp forums these last several years, I obviously acknowledge Angel Nieto's status in the sport which would seem to  definitely exceed Stoner's and arguably even Doohan's.


 


My general point in logic I stand by, that Spain surpasses Australia in junior class gp bike racing (particularly 50/80 cc racing) in the same way that Italy surpasses Australia in the sport of bocce.

Click to expand...

 


Did you deliberately call them 'junior' classes just to get a rise out of me?


 
Jumkie

3637711381931377

Sun/Mike, 'lower' class titles are minor leagues. I personally dont care much for them at all, not sure why anybody does past indication that these riders are ready for the big time. Mini-moto, and ninja 250 cups are "hard fought" which makes them entertaining, but significant they are not. I've never heard of anybody bragging about double-A & triple-A ball, but I bet across the world people have heard of Yankees. Why? Because their success is in the Major Leagues. Angel Nieto is to me like Maldin, used to make particular points about racing here and there.

Click to expand...

 


Yeah, I've heard of the Yankees.  A few years ago Matsui used to play for them, and now Ichiro does.  Mladin and Nieto in the same breath?  Everyone's entitled to an opinion, I suppose.  To me, Mladin was a failure in Grand Prix racing and Nieto a success, so I can see how you can use them both to make points about racing, actually.


 


You don't care about the 'lower classes'?  Proves the point I made in the Top Ten: if the Spanish would .... off back to those 'lower' classes they had previously concentrated on, all of this bitching and moaning about WWE and MotoSpain ........ would vanish in a cloud of let's return to our previously-scheduled Anglo/American/Italian/Australian domination.


 


I care about the history of the 125s and the 250s (less about Moto3 and Moto2, but that's my axe to grind with Dorna).  Simoncelli's championship in 2008 and Aoyama's in 2009 were more interesting to me than Rossi's back-to-back.  Couldn't really get all that excited about KR Jnr's title in 2000, either, but Nakano/Jacque/Kato/Ukawa in the 250s was something to behold.  I even found the panicked, green-scarfed teen and his Italian mates vs the angry Dutchman or Cardus' title hopes collapsing into a pit-lane dummy spit because of a broken shifter as compelling as the battle between Gardner/Doohan/Rainey and Schwantz at the Island in 1990.


 


But, hey, whatever floats your boat.  You peddle that Dorna groupthink line about silly junior classes squeezed full of teens who are taken out and shot if they don't make it to MotoGP before the age of 22.


 
Arrabbiata1

3637721381931614

You just ruined Arnaud Vincent's day.


 


Does this mean that Valentino is now relegated to being a seven times World Champion?...ah the ignominy!

Click to expand...

 


Arnaud Vincent's days have been ruined for a long time now   At least he now has Mike De Meglio for company.


 


But wait, Rossi's ignominy has a silver lining: Ago's record is now only eight, and within reach!

Arrabbiata1

3637721381931614

You just ruined Arnaud Vincent's day.

 

....! did you watch Daijiro in 2001?

 

Does this mean that Valentino is now relegated to being a seven times World Champion?...ah the ignominy!

Click to expand...

Im sure Ricardo Tormo would have been the odds on favorite to win the 197? 20cc "world" championship had one existed


My respects to Kato (was actually reflecting on him this weekend) who is among a list of spectacular 'lower' category champions that were amazing. Biaggi and Capirossi were prolific '250' category champions, so were Pedrosa and Simoncelli (rip), Casey Stoner was not. Sadly we'll never know how much success Kato would have accomplished on the premiere class, sadly same goes for Sic, both of which were superbly talented and great characters for the sport.


Regarding VR, no he is still the '9 times "world" champ'. 'Lower' category championships are designated as "world" titles.


Now excuse me, I need to get back to my Los Angeles Dodgers, who are locked in a Pennant battle to advance to the World Series.

Jumkie

3637921381940604

Im sure Ricardo Tormo would have been the odds on favorite to win the 197? 20cc "world" championship had one existed




 

Click to expand...

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

chopperman

3637851381936042

Well my memory differs somewhat from yours. Rossi and team said they only used their feet to brush away sand while team Biaggi used a broom. I think there may have been scooters on the track which is not uncommon but there were no signs of "layed down" rubber on any of the starting points.

Click to expand...

I think you're right about the absence of a broom, but Rossi's team definitely used a scooter - I remember the pictures of the rubber. 


 


Motorsport is replete with examples of teams eliciting obscure regulations and poring over the rule book to extract any advantage. Look at Ducati historically in WSBk and Ferrari in F1...very well portrayed in 'Rush'. I don't attribute the objections raised against Hunt in '76 solely to Lauda anymore than I do Sete at Qatar. It was very much a team protest.

Arrabbiata1

3637411381908931

As you have acknowledged, Telefonica was extrodinarily valuable to the series at this time also backing Pedrosa through his 125 and 250 campaigns. They deserted the series after being at loggerheads with Repsol following disputes over rider v team sponsorship rights. Two very large Spanish corporations locking horns over advertising space...be interesting to see how this fitted into the big Spanish gameplan :scratch:  :cc_confused:  :blink: .

Click to expand...

 


As I recall, it wasn't a dispute over personal sponsorship, it was that Telefonica wanted to partner Repsol as title sponsor of the HRC team when Pedrosa graduated to the premier class. If memory serves, there was an agreement in principle, only for Telefonica to go behind Repsol's back after the agreement was in place, offering Honda more money to become the sole title sponsor. Repsol caught wind and demanded Telefonica out of the team. Honda abided. So Telefonica ...... off and poured money into Fernando Alonso and Renault.


 
Arrabbiata1

3637481381913373

I also remember him for his hapless comic value and as the perfect straightman/foil to the custard coloured clown. If you don't remember or have forgotten the details of the 2005 WC or weren't watching then, I urge you to secure this comedic jewel. Many an evening's entertainment for Austin and I when he was working at MCN (in between the Boz Bro's VHS archive man crush fests').


 


...That sounded very wrong.


 


I feel a top ten most memorable Sete moments thread coming on

Click to expand...

 


There's no need for a Top 10, really. That 2005 season should cover pretty much all of it.


 
kiddyK

3637781381933304

RBR bought a complete team, chassis, engines, engineers, mechanics and support crew. They didn't appear from nowhere. They also brought their staff across from Sauber, where they had been involved for nearly ten years. 


 


Jackie Stewart built that team, Mateschitz put $400M into making it competitive.


 


Saying 'they had no history' is indicates more that you don't know the history of RBR, Stewart, Ford, Jaguar and Cosworth. Sorry, but your analogy is very flawed.

Click to expand...

 


While all those factors have been hugely important to Red Bull's success, that team wouldn't be where it is today if they weren't able to secure Newey from McLaren.