WSuperbike faster than PrototypeGP

mylexicon

3386871354603661


Was No's info insufficient? Were you unaware that the rules were 500cc 4-cylinder, 250cc 2-cylinder, and 125cc 1-cylinder? 

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No, it was "were based on modular engine design." that ramped up the ........ meter.


 


Modular engine design, when two of the three classes were two-stroke and one was four-stroke?


 


You do talk some ......

Kropotkin

3385881354525552


Will it still be that way in October 2013? My guess is not, based on sales trends.

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Maybe not. Until the sales figures are in, we won't know - unless you speak to the motor trade.


 


IMO there are many reasons for changes in biking trends - technology being one. Dirt bikes have so much power and such great handling that they have become more popular. Motards are the natural extension of that. Price obviously has a significant impact. Comfort/toys vs hard-core blaster, commutability v weekend tooler, fuel consumption v performance, alternative to expensive 4-wheeled vehicles. For every 'type' of rider there are different buying triggers, some of which are legislative, especially in the UK. 


 


I don't have a special insight into why the market goes where it does, but a blanket statement that 'big iron' is subsidising sports bikes is BS. Probably just as my blanket statement that sports bikes are the pinnacle that most bikers aspire to, but the figures (currently) show that to be the case.

mylexicon

3386571354573665


Honda have already put engine scaling into production. The CBR250R is basically a single CBR1000RR cylinder.

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Other than the exhaust valve size (but not construction), there isn't a single common component. So no, it isn't "basically a single CBR1000RR cylinder"


 


They do share the same bore and stroke, but it ends there.

cliché guevara

3387081354630460


too heavy,too slow.


they are good  beginner bikes (at least the 250 that i'm familiar with) ,just like the cbr250 but they are definately not very good at being sportsbikes.at least when being compared to other 400s of old or the 250 or even 125 aprilia


at least 400cc,better 500-600cc singles or twins ,wet weight 150kg.absolutely doable for the manufacturers

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BMW's F800 is heading in that direction, except it is a bit of a slug in its' current guise. Nice bike, to be sure, but needs a bit more oomph. Given a more sporting-oriented manufacturer, like Aprilia, especially with the engines available to Piaggio, it should be possible to deliver such a beast.


 


Piaggio group has at its disposal - 450 V2, 550 V2, 600V2, 800 V2 already. Then there is their long-term relationship with Rotax, who have singles in everything from 350-650, access to Bombardier's range of engines (not sure about them these days - always powerful). But with the way global motorcycle sales are done, it isn't uncommon for a manufacturer to utilise an engine from another. Suffice it to say, for whatever configuration, power, layout you want, there is an engine available to fit the bill. What is holding them back is market. They are very cautious - they want to maximise engine design return and to that end, will continue to use engines they have developed and that they can claw back the development costs on for as long as they can (CB125 engine, anyone?). 


 


Inherently, Vs offer the best bang/buck/weight/width option, but aren't the easiest engine to fit in a chassis. Parallel twins need a lot of work on balance but package beautifully, singles have too many disadvantages in piston speed, engine torque at high capacities, heat dissipation at high performance, I4s are too wide. Everything is a compromise.


 


The market will be won by the manufacturer that brings to market a bike that can commute (cheap on gas), can be ridden sportingly on the weekends (powerful!), is cheap to buy and to maintain. It's called the Triumph Bonneville 750, circa 1965

BJ.C

3387391354679608


 


 


No, it was "were based on modular engine design." that ramped up the ........ meter.


 


Modular engine design, when two of the three classes were two-stroke and one was four-stroke?


 


You do talk some ......

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It was based on modularity, and they still continue such nonsense with the rules even though they know it makes no sense. Moto3, has the same 81mm bore limit as MotoGP, though the organizers know that none of the teams will use GP engine parts in a Moto3 bike.


 


Honestly though, no one cares where your BS meter is. The concept of scaling capacity with cylinders was the point of mentioning the 4-2-1, and that point is obviously valid whether you're war-mongering is offended or not.

BJ.C

3387411354681300


 


Other than the exhaust valve size (but not construction), there isn't a single common component. So no, it isn't "basically a single CBR1000RR cylinder"


 


They do share the same bore and stroke, but it ends there.

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Sucks. I guess I was suckered by the marketing fluff. I hope Yamaha do not pull the same stunt.

BJ.C

3387421354682208


 


 


The market will be won by the manufacturer that brings to market a bike that can commute (cheap on gas), can be ridden sportingly on the weekends (powerful!), is cheap to buy and to maintain. It's called the Triumph Bonneville 750, circa 1965

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A 750 Bonnie in 1965? Shirley some mistake?


 


The market was lost by unreliable, vibratey, underpowered, cow-horn handlebar'ed bikes with oil pissing out their pushrod tubes, but they were easy to maintain with a lump hammer (or a box of matches) <pretend a smiley thing is inserted here, computer just shows red 'X's>

thats the thing, new engines aren't needed.


the mentioned f800 engine is already more than enough (close to 100hp and very good torque),hell, even ktms 690 single is perfectly capable of making a 150kg machine go very fast.50-70 horsepower with as much torque as possible- perfect for twins and singles, IL4 would be a bit overkill for such machines.would make no sense making a 600cc IL4 smaller.


suspension doesn't need to be expensive öhlins,those parts can always be bought aftermarket.a cheaper version,like a bit stiffer versions of the suspension of their middleclass nakeds is surely possible.cheap and does the job for the road

Dr No

3387501354689697


 


A 750 Bonnie in 1965? Shirley some mistake?


 


The market was lost by unreliable, vibratey, underpowered, cow-horn handlebar'ed bikes with oil pissing out their pushrod tubes, but they were easy to maintain with a lump hammer (or a box of matches) <pretend a smiley thing is inserted here, computer just shows red 'X's>

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Doh! '75


 


Thanks for the pick-up!

BJ.C

3387401354680267


 


I don't have a special insight into why the market goes where it does, but a blanket statement that 'big iron' is subsidising sports bikes is BS. Probably just as my blanket statement that sports bikes are the pinnacle that most bikers aspire to, but the figures (currently) show that to be the case.

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For the UK only. In the rest of the world, sports bikes are almost an irrelevance. The US shifts large outright numbers, but tiny as a proportion of total sales.

Kropotkin

3387581354706796


 


For the UK only. In the rest of the world, sports bikes are almost an irrelevance. The US shifts large outright numbers, but tiny as a proportion of total sales.

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Let's ditch WSBK and all the current domestic series and just do HD Sporty racing or Yamaha Diversion Cup.


I've raced a scooter. Maybe ditch Moto3 and go for Improved Touring TGB100 class.


 


MotoGP can wander into the distance.

Dr No

3387591354709227


 


Let's ditch WSBK and all the current domestic series and just do HD Sporty racing or Yamaha Diversion Cup.


I've raced a scooter. Maybe ditch Moto3 and go for Improved Touring TGB100 class.


 


MotoGP can wander into the distance.

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I love WSBK and want it to remain as it is, more or less. But what I want doesn't count. The fact is that sports bikes are becoming less and less popular. 

Kropotkin

3387601354711007


I love WSBK and want it to remain as it is, more or less. But what I want doesn't count. The fact is that sports bikes are becoming less and less popular. 

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Could be as cliche mentioned earlier in the thread...high prices and no where to ride them. 

Kropotkin

3387601354711007


I love WSBK and want it to remain as it is, more or less. But what I want doesn't count. The fact is that sports bikes are becoming less and less popular. 

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 Dorna needs to keep their grubby little paws off of WSBK. The formula works.!!  Its not perfect, im not a fan of the performance  indexing   {because Ducati refuses to race a 4cylinder} , but overall is a great series. I saw a poll recently on what series produced the best racing. WSBK by a 3 to one margin over the next best was voted to have had the best racing. It was a US based poll because if i remember correctly, the options were


 


WSBK


MotoGP


AMA Superbike


AMA Supercross


AMA Motocross


 


Never mind,. i found it


 



Which series produced the best racing in 2012?



AMA Superbike  7.47%   
 

MotoGP  18.24%   
 

WSBK  57.58%   
 

AMA Supercross  10.99%   
 



AMA Motocross  5.71% 


 


Maybe Bridgepoint should let the Flaminni's take over GP instead of the other way around.

L8Braker

3387641354713884


Could be as cliche mentioned earlier in the thread...high prices and no where to ride them. 

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I think for folks who live in the country - there's places to ride 'em. But for folks in the suburbs riding fast


and getting killed at red lights or doing 120mph on the highway dodging cops gets boring after a while.


That's why I stopped buying big/super-fast bikes. I have much more fun ringing the neck of a small


great handling 350 or 400. Had a nice R6 and got rid of it after a year. No place to really open her up


round my parts. Also - cost of maintainence - incredibly high these days.


 


Also - chopper type bikes have had so much exposure in the media, all the biker movies


and biker characters appearing in so many Hollywood films which have popularized


them as exemplifying "manliness" that the average phillistine slob can relate to.


For every Vale wannabee there must be 30 thousand Hells Angels wannabees.

Keshav

3387661354717782


I think for folks who live in the country - there's places to ride 'em. But for folks in the suburbs riding fast


and getting killed at red lights or doing 120mph on the highway dodging cops gets boring after a while.


That's why I stopped buying big/super-fast bikes. I have much more fun ringing the neck of a small


great handling 350 or 400. Had a nice R6 and got rid of it after a year. No place to really open her up


round my parts. Also - cost of maintainence - incredibly high these days.

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Exactly why i could never live where tens of millions of people are crammed in one spot. I can leave my house on my bike, or dirtbike in the back of a truck, and within 20 minutes, be riding some of the best roads or trails you can imagine, with very little supervision  if you know what i mean. I live in motorcycle nirvana. Speaking of dirtbikes, i have spent the last few days getting  XR650R out of moth balls. New tires on order, oil changed, and she fired right up 3rd kick [ thanks Sea Foam }. My son is coming home for 2 weeks at Christmas, and we are hitting the trails in Royal Blue. That new Wr450F has been begging someone to ride it for 2 months now. Throttle stop has been eliminated, new programmable ecu installed and battery charged. I see bruises in my future, and cant wait.

depends on what you see as a place to ride them ( them being superbikes i guess?)


i don't live in the city and its just 30minutes for me to some really great roads and mountains , wide, newly asphalted roads and great corners. but i never go faster than around 140 kph because if someone catches you above that you lose your license for at least a month.


do i need more than 100hp to fully enjoy riding or even more simple : would i be faster from 0-140 with an additional 50hp? surely not IMO.


sure you can use a 1000ccm superbike on the road, you can even roll around in 6th gear in town all day long if that makes you feel good. but you can't use them to their fullest, even when bending the law quite a bit. not even the current gen 600s IMO , what good is all that top end power when you only get it above 100kph in 1st.....

cliché guevara

3387701354720291


depends on what you see as a place to ride them ( them being superbikes i guess?)


i don't live in the city and its just 30minutes for me to some really great roads and mountains , wide, newly asphalted roads and great corners. but i never go faster than around 140 kph because if someone catches you above that you lose your license for at least a month.


do i need more than 100hp to fully enjoy riding or even more simple : would i be faster from 0-140 with an additional 50hp? surely not IMO.


sure you can use a 1000ccm superbike on the road, you can even roll around in 6th gear in town all day long if that makes you feel good. but you can't use them to their fullest, even when bending the law quite a bit. not even the current gen 600s IMO , what good is all that top end power when you only get it above 100kph in 1st.....

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I love being able to take my big bore sportbike and haul ... through the mountains without shifting if i dont want to. Lets face it, most of us could get by with 50hp, but what fun is that. I dont do it often, but every once in a while if conditions are right, i like letting the big dog eat. Just one 185-190 mph blast every now and again is invigorating and good for the soul. What i need, and what i want are two totally different animals.

Keshav

3387661354717782


I think for folks who live in the country - there's places to ride 'em. But for folks in the suburbs riding fast


and getting killed at red lights or doing 120mph on the highway dodging cops gets boring after a while.


That's why I stopped buying big/super-fast bikes. I have much more fun ringing the neck of a small


great handling 350 or 400. Had a nice R6 and got rid of it after a year. No place to really open her up


round my parts. Also - cost of maintainence - incredibly high these days.


 


Also - chopper type bikes have had so much exposure in the media, all the biker movies


and biker characters appearing in so many Hollywood films which have popularized


them as exemplifying "manliness" that the average phillistine slob can relate to.


For every Vale wannabee there must be 30 thousand Hells Angels wannabees.

Click to expand...

Very well put sir.

povol

3387751354723505


I love being able to take my big bore sportbike and haul ... through the mountains without shifting if i dont want to. Lets face it, most of us could get by with 50hp, but what fun is that. I dont do it often, but every once in a while if conditions are right, i like letting the big dog eat. Just one 185-190 mph blast every now and again is invigorating and good for the soul. What i need, and what i want are two totally different animals.

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i totally get that, and i usually advocate 100hp and as much torque as possible for normal road bikes!


my main bike is a slightly modded f800r, if it was a full 1000cc it'd be the perfect bike for the road for me


but right now i'm just talking about a lightweight/middleweight sportsbike, something that really doesn't exist but should