WSuperbike faster than PrototypeGP
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Dr No
I am insinuating that peak horsepower is a determinant of terminal velocity and observed top speeds (bodywork regulations and tires held relatively constant). The GPC made a token gesture to control the trap speeds and lap times, imo, with the 3kg increase to the minimum weight. Like the switch to the 800s, it appears the MSMA have missed their performance marks, and they will cut fuel capacity to 20L for 2014.
I am insinuating that peak horsepower is a determinant of terminal velocity and observed top speeds (bodywork regulations and tires held relatively constant). The GPC made a token gesture to control the trap speeds and lap times, imo, with the 3kg increase to the minimum weight. Like the switch to the 800s, it appears the MSMA have missed their performance marks, and they will cut fuel capacity to 20L for 2014.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
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mylexicon
Dissembling again, Lexy.
Was there a human who watched the 1000s thinking they were going to be slower?
Actually, since I posed that as a question, it might be assumed that I am interested in another response on this point, so I'll try again.
No one thought that the 1000s were going to be slower than the 800s.
Dissembling again, Lexy.
Was there a human who watched the 1000s thinking they were going to be slower?
Actually, since I posed that as a question, it might be assumed that I am interested in another response on this point, so I'll try again.
No one thought that the 1000s were going to be slower than the 800s.
Dr No
True statement, but if we know the manufacturers are going to cut fuel capacity to 20L in 2014, is the 1000cc formula really an about-face? The current 1000cc rules seem to be a compromise between two competing MSMA agendas--stable rules and lap time control. The 1000cc formula may also be designed to follow basic scientific theory. One independent variable per experiment. Change the engines. Assess the experiment. Make additional adjustments if necessary.
True statement, but if we know the manufacturers are going to cut fuel capacity to 20L in 2014, is the 1000cc formula really an about-face? The current 1000cc rules seem to be a compromise between two competing MSMA agendas--stable rules and lap time control. The 1000cc formula may also be designed to follow basic scientific theory. One independent variable per experiment. Change the engines. Assess the experiment. Make additional adjustments if necessary.
BJ.C
So which is it? Are the big four making all their money from "big-bore blasters"? or the 125 two strokes that make up all of their sales? You seem confused right off the get go, seemingly more concerned with using smoke and mirrors and nitpicking Lex's points than making a clear point yourself. This above post is an excellent example.
And for the record, in case you were wondering, no, Honda is not making "most of their profit" selling CBR1000RR's. Your first point is asinine.
mylexicon
True.
Maybe NA centric, but that doesn't make the statement untrue. Unlike the clearly, again, asinine statement "people want big-bore blasters and its where the motorcycle manufacturers make the most profit."
BJ.C
That was a very Euro-centric post wasn't it?
More smoke and mirrors, you seem to specialize in this. It's not until somebody other than Lex (very respected Krop) points out how wrong you are do you admit that you were wrong. And the beautiful part is that you admit that you were wrong by agreeing with Krop and do so in a way where you try to make yourself look right all along by going on and on about how wrong Lex is.
And once again, let's go back to the first statement.
"people want big-bore blasters and its where the motorcycle manufacturers make the most profit."
How much PROFIT does Yamaha make every time an '89 FZR get's sold out of somebody's garage in the UK?
And if nobody is running out buying new liter bikes with that expensive insurance how are the motorcycle manufactures making all of this profit off of them?..... oh, wait, they're not.... you just told me so.....when you flip flopped.
And for the record, there is nothing wrong with being wrong, just don't flip sides, pick apart somebody's else's minor point and continue on as if you've been right the whole time. It makes you look silly.
So which is it? Are the big four making all their money from "big-bore blasters"? or the 125 two strokes that make up all of their sales? You seem confused right off the get go, seemingly more concerned with using smoke and mirrors and nitpicking Lex's points than making a clear point yourself. This above post is an excellent example.
And for the record, in case you were wondering, no, Honda is not making "most of their profit" selling CBR1000RR's. Your first point is asinine.
mylexicon
True.
Maybe NA centric, but that doesn't make the statement untrue. Unlike the clearly, again, asinine statement "people want big-bore blasters and its where the motorcycle manufacturers make the most profit."
BJ.C
BJ.C
That was a very Euro-centric post wasn't it?
More smoke and mirrors, you seem to specialize in this. It's not until somebody other than Lex (very respected Krop) points out how wrong you are do you admit that you were wrong. And the beautiful part is that you admit that you were wrong by agreeing with Krop and do so in a way where you try to make yourself look right all along by going on and on about how wrong Lex is.
And once again, let's go back to the first statement.
"people want big-bore blasters and its where the motorcycle manufacturers make the most profit."
How much PROFIT does Yamaha make every time an '89 FZR get's sold out of somebody's garage in the UK?
And if nobody is running out buying new liter bikes with that expensive insurance how are the motorcycle manufactures making all of this profit off of them?..... oh, wait, they're not.... you just told me so.....when you flip flopped.
And for the record, there is nothing wrong with being wrong, just don't flip sides, pick apart somebody's else's minor point and continue on as if you've been right the whole time. It makes you look silly.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
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mylexicon
Since your tangent is a good one, I'm back in.
I do think you're correct. Though faster, it isn't an about face. It (as you wrote a few posts up) aligns the capacity limit with what is in the market and allows for a reasonable compromise or at least for a compromise to take place at all.
It'd be nice to think that Dorna are following some semblance of experimental design. Problem is it seems to be a full Taguchi and they've ...... up the array.
Since your tangent is a good one, I'm back in.
I do think you're correct. Though faster, it isn't an about face. It (as you wrote a few posts up) aligns the capacity limit with what is in the market and allows for a reasonable compromise or at least for a compromise to take place at all.
It'd be nice to think that Dorna are following some semblance of experimental design. Problem is it seems to be a full Taguchi and they've ...... up the array.
michaelm
If i was debating with you as we have before Michael things would have been very different but i was not and as you have had a couple of unprovoked pops at me lately go and .... yourself you ......, hows that was that what you wanted??
If i was debating with you as we have before Michael things would have been very different but i was not and as you have had a couple of unprovoked pops at me lately go and .... yourself you ......, hows that was that what you wanted??
thedeal
What I object to is lack of civility as you have obviously discerned, particularly when imo needless and humourless.
What I object to is lack of civility as you have obviously discerned, particularly when imo needless and humourless.
Kropotkin
So sports bikes are still the leading bike (not scooter - we know why they are the biggest seller on the UK - licensing laws) class, and are not being subsidised by 'old iron'. Just as I thought
So sports bikes are still the leading bike (not scooter - we know why they are the biggest seller on the UK - licensing laws) class, and are not being subsidised by 'old iron'. Just as I thought
bluegreen
It could be considered asinine if you quoted it correctly - THE MOST PROFIT, not MOST OF THEIR PROFIT. The money made of a $15000 sportsbike is a lot more than that made off a $1500 125 in Asia. Not only in raw terms, but in percentage terms.
It could be considered asinine if you quoted it correctly - THE MOST PROFIT, not MOST OF THEIR PROFIT. The money made of a $15000 sportsbike is a lot more than that made off a $1500 125 in Asia. Not only in raw terms, but in percentage terms.
Dr No
I definitely have no pretensions to being a real man by standards currently prevalent on the forum.
This argument for me becomes similar to the questions julia gillard still has to answer, although no-one seems to be able to come up with such questions despite what would seem quite adequate opportunity. Apart from it being bollocks/bollox and ....., why is it that there is no concern in motogp about bike speeds exceeding the run-off areas and other capacities of the racetracks?
I definitely have no pretensions to being a real man by standards currently prevalent on the forum.
This argument for me becomes similar to the questions julia gillard still has to answer, although no-one seems to be able to come up with such questions despite what would seem quite adequate opportunity. Apart from it being bollocks/bollox and ....., why is it that there is no concern in motogp about bike speeds exceeding the run-off areas and other capacities of the racetracks?
BJ.C
Will it still be that way in October 2013? My guess is not, based on sales trends.
338583
So sports bikes are still the leading bike (not scooter - we know why they are the biggest seller on the UK - licensing laws) class, and are not being subsidised by 'old iron'. Just as I thought
Will it still be that way in October 2013? My guess is not, based on sales trends.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
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michaelm
The 'real man' thing...well, you did bring it up.
[And regarding Gillard, she fronted up, live, and the press tossers had jack ....]
Moving on. Of course, safety is a concern. But given corners are where most bin jobs occur, it's corner speed that it the issue in question - and there's not a huge difference between the classes. Not to mention hitting something solid at 80 makes you just as dead as hitting it at 90....Lest you think I'm cavalier about it, I've seen guys die in front of me on the track, and no amount of run-off would have saved them. Shades of Simoncelli (RIP).
The 'real man' thing...well, you did bring it up.
[And regarding Gillard, she fronted up, live, and the press tossers had jack ....]
Moving on. Of course, safety is a concern. But given corners are where most bin jobs occur, it's corner speed that it the issue in question - and there's not a huge difference between the classes. Not to mention hitting something solid at 80 makes you just as dead as hitting it at 90....Lest you think I'm cavalier about it, I've seen guys die in front of me on the track, and no amount of run-off would have saved them. Shades of Simoncelli (RIP).
Dr No
Absolutely true, I fortunately had an engagement the night of last year's sepang race and didn't find out what had happened until I got home, and have managed to avoid seeing the incident since. I unfortunately did see live the apparently similar craig jones incident in the wss race a few years ago, and agree that nothing would have stopped that.
As I have said though, I do think that everyone including dorna and honda was/were genuinely distressed by the kato thing, and the fact that the 800 bikes were if anything more dangerous because of the increased corner speed and lack of warning when they were about to let go doesn't imo mean that the formula wasn't at least partly motivated by safety issues. Without wanting to be too frivolous the fact that the 800s weren't safer doesn't necessarily make it less likely this was the intention particularly given the history of dorna's initiatives. Sure the msma and honda in particular may have hi-jacked things to follow their own agendas such as selling research and development into engine efficiency to the honda corporate guys as a reason to justify participation in motogp, as well as following various arcane engineering philosophies which they appear to hold.
Tony Abbott didn't appear to have too many pressing questions in parliament the other day either, btw.
Absolutely true, I fortunately had an engagement the night of last year's sepang race and didn't find out what had happened until I got home, and have managed to avoid seeing the incident since. I unfortunately did see live the apparently similar craig jones incident in the wss race a few years ago, and agree that nothing would have stopped that.
As I have said though, I do think that everyone including dorna and honda was/were genuinely distressed by the kato thing, and the fact that the 800 bikes were if anything more dangerous because of the increased corner speed and lack of warning when they were about to let go doesn't imo mean that the formula wasn't at least partly motivated by safety issues. Without wanting to be too frivolous the fact that the 800s weren't safer doesn't necessarily make it less likely this was the intention particularly given the history of dorna's initiatives. Sure the msma and honda in particular may have hi-jacked things to follow their own agendas such as selling research and development into engine efficiency to the honda corporate guys as a reason to justify participation in motogp, as well as following various arcane engineering philosophies which they appear to hold.
Tony Abbott didn't appear to have too many pressing questions in parliament the other day either, btw.
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
michaelm
Time Michael, I started on CraSH, graduated to Powerslide was an obnoxious ..... then started realizing there was a zen path to follow. It doesn't happen over night.
Lex with whom I agree 30% time is a smart cookie and doesn't invite derision, but does invite debate.
A question Lex didn't answer. Remember when the 100hp rule was touted. wasn't enough. I call 130hp with good torque enough, I prefer a handling package over a power package anyway.
We all different. I can do the 200hp no worries but the best ride has a little shake and rattle with a bit more twist and roll.
Time Michael, I started on CraSH, graduated to Powerslide was an obnoxious ..... then started realizing there was a zen path to follow. It doesn't happen over night.
Lex with whom I agree 30% time is a smart cookie and doesn't invite derision, but does invite debate.
A question Lex didn't answer. Remember when the 100hp rule was touted. wasn't enough. I call 130hp with good torque enough, I prefer a handling package over a power package anyway.
We all different. I can do the 200hp no worries but the best ride has a little shake and rattle with a bit more twist and roll.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
Andy Roo
+1
100hp from 750-1000cc is good enough for me,you can't realistically use more IMO in the first two gears and by the time you shift to 3rd you're usually over well over 150kph anyways.
i admit its fun trying to break the 300kph barrier and i've done it twice but its not what fascinates me about riding, rather just something that makes me look very pale when getting off the bike.
guess when you can actually use the power (albeit only on a straight and its legal) it quickly loses most of its fascination and i'm wayyyyy to slow to use a superbike to its fullest. i've got my hands full when handed a nice supersport
+1
100hp from 750-1000cc is good enough for me,you can't realistically use more IMO in the first two gears and by the time you shift to 3rd you're usually over well over 150kph anyways.
i admit its fun trying to break the 300kph barrier and i've done it twice but its not what fascinates me about riding, rather just something that makes me look very pale when getting off the bike.
guess when you can actually use the power (albeit only on a straight and its legal) it quickly loses most of its fascination and i'm wayyyyy to slow to use a superbike to its fullest. i've got my hands full when handed a nice supersport
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
what would be really interesting to see for me is how much full throttle in the high revs the riders actually use.
i know these guys are much better with the clutch/throttle than i could ever dream of becoming but i'd be highly surprised if they got more than 200hp down in the first 4 gears (just assuming 4th gear at say 15k equals 220-240 kph).
i know i've read here and there that theres so much % full throttle, but full throttle at 10k is obviously not the same as shifting up as late as possible and keeping it pinned.
krop (or anybody else) , if theres some good data out there concerning how much power is actually put down during a lap i'd highly appreciate it if you would post it.
so very sick of arguing with my buddies that more than 150hp doesn't make you faster,rather slower below 200kph if you keep the wheel down yourself.
edit:
just to add because i'm super depfed and need to add my 2 cents:
the problem in europes sportsbikes sales isn't because sportsbikes aren't desired.
its just that all these bikes are the same ....... thing. 1000cc ? too expensive
600cc ? almost as expensive as going 1000cc and the only real power would be if you would ride around in 1st or 2nd all the time.too much noise. its not only about being a .... towards other riders by being too loud and making a bad name for riders (its a real problem in germany where many good roads are starting to have signs that you can't ride here) its just embarassing to make all the noise you can imagine (and the worst sort of all, NOBODY (maybe except the rider whos a racing fanatic) likes a 600cc straight 4 revving above 10k) and still have just ~80hp .
if aprilia would fit their 550cc v2 in the rs125 chassis (can be done,i've witnessed it first hand), if ktm would put their 690cc single in a good chassis (already exists) and cagiva would put their 500cc husky single in the mito people would be all over them.
i'm not an employee of any of those companies but i expect those bikes could be sold way below 8000€ , they would all sound badass (lets face it, twins and singles sound the greatest to most people AND they are not as annoying to all non riders when blasting by), and would have more than enough power to be proper fast bikes for the ROAD (50-80hp). while being light as a feather and being the handling machine you would dream of.
my opinion : the manufacturers got way too obsessed with blinding the stupid riders with 2hp more and 2 kg less every year (and stupid ....... electronics, all you need is abs) to realize that there is a great market out there for light and middleweights.
you can only buy second hand 125 2 smokes if you want lightness and some sort of power (admittedly, 30hp is a bit too slow given how little torque they have in the low revs) and there is absolutely no replacement for the glorious 250s.
600s are only slightly less expensive versions of the heavy, unusable 1000s.
obsession with bikes within the racing rules has destroyed the market. who gives a .... about which bikes win wsbk and wss, i want a cheap, beautifully handling ,bad ... sounding full faired bike. and i know i'm not the only one seeing how many custom made bikes there are ,even with all the 450 singles.
the japanese have brought this on themselves.
horsepower is not everything,on the contrary : to most people its nothing.
which sane person (that hasn't got money to burn) , would buy a new superbike after say buying a k5 kilo gixxer or the first abs fireblade?look at what kawa does with the new 600 ninja fffs. we need new light and middle weight sportsbikes. its not that hard,there are a lot of powerful ,torqy engines available only waiting to be fitted in a 125/250 style chassis.
i know these guys are much better with the clutch/throttle than i could ever dream of becoming but i'd be highly surprised if they got more than 200hp down in the first 4 gears (just assuming 4th gear at say 15k equals 220-240 kph).
i know i've read here and there that theres so much % full throttle, but full throttle at 10k is obviously not the same as shifting up as late as possible and keeping it pinned.
krop (or anybody else) , if theres some good data out there concerning how much power is actually put down during a lap i'd highly appreciate it if you would post it.
so very sick of arguing with my buddies that more than 150hp doesn't make you faster,rather slower below 200kph if you keep the wheel down yourself.
edit:
just to add because i'm super depfed and need to add my 2 cents:
the problem in europes sportsbikes sales isn't because sportsbikes aren't desired.
its just that all these bikes are the same ....... thing. 1000cc ? too expensive
600cc ? almost as expensive as going 1000cc and the only real power would be if you would ride around in 1st or 2nd all the time.too much noise. its not only about being a .... towards other riders by being too loud and making a bad name for riders (its a real problem in germany where many good roads are starting to have signs that you can't ride here) its just embarassing to make all the noise you can imagine (and the worst sort of all, NOBODY (maybe except the rider whos a racing fanatic) likes a 600cc straight 4 revving above 10k) and still have just ~80hp .
if aprilia would fit their 550cc v2 in the rs125 chassis (can be done,i've witnessed it first hand), if ktm would put their 690cc single in a good chassis (already exists) and cagiva would put their 500cc husky single in the mito people would be all over them.
i'm not an employee of any of those companies but i expect those bikes could be sold way below 8000€ , they would all sound badass (lets face it, twins and singles sound the greatest to most people AND they are not as annoying to all non riders when blasting by), and would have more than enough power to be proper fast bikes for the ROAD (50-80hp). while being light as a feather and being the handling machine you would dream of.
my opinion : the manufacturers got way too obsessed with blinding the stupid riders with 2hp more and 2 kg less every year (and stupid ....... electronics, all you need is abs) to realize that there is a great market out there for light and middleweights.
you can only buy second hand 125 2 smokes if you want lightness and some sort of power (admittedly, 30hp is a bit too slow given how little torque they have in the low revs) and there is absolutely no replacement for the glorious 250s.
600s are only slightly less expensive versions of the heavy, unusable 1000s.
obsession with bikes within the racing rules has destroyed the market. who gives a .... about which bikes win wsbk and wss, i want a cheap, beautifully handling ,bad ... sounding full faired bike. and i know i'm not the only one seeing how many custom made bikes there are ,even with all the 450 singles.
the japanese have brought this on themselves.
horsepower is not everything,on the contrary : to most people its nothing.
which sane person (that hasn't got money to burn) , would buy a new superbike after say buying a k5 kilo gixxer or the first abs fireblade?look at what kawa does with the new 600 ninja fffs. we need new light and middle weight sportsbikes. its not that hard,there are a lot of powerful ,torqy engines available only waiting to be fitted in a 125/250 style chassis.
Joined Apr 2011
636 Posts | 26+
Gold Coast
cliché guevara
Check these out cliche, not roadys but a good new class anyway.
http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xtremema.nsf/ae002b388f9db369ca2574ed00200523/0e279af131c40a16ca2579f6007da23f?opendocument
Check these out cliche, not roadys but a good new class anyway.
http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xtremema.nsf/ae002b388f9db369ca2574ed00200523/0e279af131c40a16ca2579f6007da23f?opendocument
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
i know, this sort of racing bike has existed since,lets say the ducati supermono at least. why not contine on that, the engines and in some cases chassis are already there to make a good lightweight sportsbike with some grunt and 50-80hp.geared to hit ~200 in the rev limiter these bikes would be quite awesome and all you need to go fast on the road and a lot of fun on the track as well
i wish i could afford one, but the aprilia rs 125 custom fitted by a big aprilia dealer in germany with the 550cc engine with 75hp ,fatter tyres ,suspension mods etc. ,would be the .... for me.i hope aprilia will come to their senses after so many years,especially in the absent of a intermediate step between the slow rs4 125 and the brilliant rsv4 and build a 500-800cc vtwin
i wish i could afford one, but the aprilia rs 125 custom fitted by a big aprilia dealer in germany with the 550cc engine with 75hp ,fatter tyres ,suspension mods etc. ,would be the .... for me.i hope aprilia will come to their senses after so many years,especially in the absent of a intermediate step between the slow rs4 125 and the brilliant rsv4 and build a 500-800cc vtwin
