WSuperbike faster than PrototypeGP

birdman said:

Ive followed the typical progression to higher capacity up until a 1000cc zx10 and for a while thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Now just recently i was given a turbo diesel work car and for about the first time i look at the old zx10 and think its not very interesting piece of tech at all. The new bikes dont interest me either. I was truly shocked by this car, the features and price. A 2L turbo with economy and performance modes. In performance mode its better than the 4L V6 that I used to drive. In economy it does big kms on the freeway. And it has self leveling suspension, not quite active suspension but its still good. And the thing was dirt cheap.



By comparison the latest 1000cc bikes are cookie cutter with the 'magic' hidden in the little black box and nothing really innovative going on. Boring. Where's the active suspension and engine modes that allow me to use the same bike to do everything from track day to touring to riding over gravel roads if i have to?



Nakamoto has it wrong imo. Electronic gizmos hidden away in little black boxes and salesmen clicking buttons on the handlebar are not the future. Give me turbos and active suspension fully adjustable ride positions and one bike that does it all. 80's bikes were more interesting in a lot of ways, it seams no one thinks outside the square anymore.

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Birdman, you are right, I'd rather see good suspension and ABS, CBS, TC etc on a bike as opposed to launch control. Seriously "launch control" should come with a proactive pack for the pimples, it is for ........ teenagers.



Problems with bikes is they are impractical and niche market. I remember years ago when Shane Watts went to the US after the World, Aus, ISDE enduro titles. He won the GNCC series for KTM on standard bikes, different ones each time taken straight from the crate. I believe he won a race on every bike in the KTM range.



I use this example because bikes are pointy end implements, like a Zonda or Ferrari. The do one thing really well. The 2 litre diesel work car is never going to win a race unless its against comparable machines. And very constrained comparable machines. It is built for for purpose of getting you to work with your coffee next to you unspilled, in perfect temperature with surround sound a heated arse and blue teeth. Its like comparing apples with crack.

Kropotkin said:

Here in Europe, the sports bike market is dead on its arse. Top seller? The BMW GS1200. In Italy, the first sports bike in the sales list doesn't make the top 10, and barely scrapes into the top 20. Story is the same in the UK, once one of the most important sports bike markets in the world.

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And this is cyclical, I have been getting Aus MC news for many years,they put sales figures in every edition or once a month or something. There has been Sports bike boycotts for a few years and then it turns around. The top selling road bike in Aus is the little Kawasaki 250/300 ninja (ette). There is a lot of learners coming on line and they will graduate to a sports bike and in a few years time - you wont be able to get an R1 (or whatever). I can remember when an R1 (which is why I used the example) was a 3-5 month wait.



Maybe this was for the right hand drive versions?



You can make Miranda Kerr look ugly in a snapshot, the market changes, it ebbs and flows. Don't chicken little me with the world is ending, your indicator is your learner class bikes, how they going?

Andy Roo said:

And this is cyclical, I have been getting Aus MC news for many years,they put sales figures in every edition or once a month or something. There has been Sports bike boycotts for a few years and then it turns around. The top selling road bike in Aus is the little Kawasaki 250/300 ninja (ette). There is a lot of learners coming on line and they will graduate to a sports bike and in a few years time - you wont be able to get an R1 (or whatever). I can remember when an R1 (which is why I used the example) was a 3-5 month wait.



Maybe this was for the right hand drive versions?



You can make Miranda Kerr look ugly in a snapshot, the market changes, it ebbs and flows. Don't chicken little me with the world is ending, your indicator is your learner class bikes, how they going?

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In Europe, blanket speed camera coverage has effectively killed sports bikes. That, and increasingly aging bikers. Learners are up, but it's mostly women (over 50% in Holland) and slightly older men. Biggest growth is in scooters and commuters. Things may be different in Oz, but here, it's all over.

Kropotkin said:

In Europe, blanket speed camera coverage has effectively killed sports bikes. That, and increasingly aging bikers. Learners are up, but it's mostly women (over 50% in Holland) and slightly older men. Biggest growth is in scooters and commuters. Things may be different in Oz, but here, it's all over.

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Goodness David you sound like Hardy har har!



Have Ferrari's stopped selling? There must be some bike friendly roads somewhere. Admittedly where I live one heads south west and runs out of real people and towns (hillbillies and horse fuckers don't count) for about 500km.



It can't be that bad.



Apropos chicks on bikes, I was having a la-de-da cafe breakfast on Saturday morning and this chick rode past on a polished red Vespa, tight shirt. The spank bank was growling with joy.

BJ.C said:

Your post is a joke, right? Physics is the reason the FIM sanction a racetrack? Do you ever read the trite ..... you post? Wrapping it up in flowery verbiage is all very well, just as you can roll a turd in glitter, but it is still .....

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The circuit designers use physics and simulation to design the tracks to FIM standards, but you suppose that the FIM do not have dimensional restrictions based upon the apex radius, track width, trap speed, and so on? Monza just had its homologation revoked in July for inadequate racing surface maintenance. On what grounds do you think the FIM revoked Monza's homologation? Religious grounds?

As to 'ridiculous' bikes......

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'Ridiculous' was your adjective so I suppose you are the arbiter for the bikes you ride.



I said that it is impossible to use 200hp on the public roadways with road tires. Most road racing circuits can barely handle so much performance. You rebutted my postulation with a manifesto about your 1000cc commuting prowess, and your ability to use approximately 16hp. Congratulations? I have also ridden a 1000cc bike within the confines of the legally posted limits. What's your point?

Do I really have to go and get the sales figures for bikes worldwide?

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Yes. You will finally see how many scooters, dirt bikes, and cruisers are sold. You also see that the sportbike sub-genre is often dominated by something other than SBK/SS.

mylexicon said:

I said that it is impossible to use 200hp on the public roadways with road tires. Most road racing circuits can barely handle so much performance. You rebutted my postulation with a manifesto about your 1000cc commuting prowess, and your ability to use approximately 16hp. Congratulations? I have also ridden a 1000cc bike within the confines of the legally posted limits. What's your point?

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Out of curiosity, what would you say would be "enough" horsepower to cover the needs/wants of most riders in most situations? I.e. driving on town and open roads with speed limits.

Andy Roo said:

It can't be that bad.

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It is. There are probably 350 million people living in Europe in the space where you fit 22 million. And there are very few deserts or otherwise empty regions.

Kropotkin said:

It is. There are probably 350 million people living in Europe in the space where you fit 22 million. And there are very few deserts or otherwise empty regions.

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Kink Troop

Print Kook

AnnoyingTwit said:

Out of curiosity, what would you say would be "enough" horsepower to cover the needs/wants of most riders in most situations? I.e. driving on town and open roads with speed limits.

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I don't care.

Kropotkin said:

Here in Europe, the sports bike market is dead on its arse. Top seller? The BMW GS1200. In Italy, the first sports bike in the sales list doesn't make the top 10, and barely scrapes into the top 20. Story is the same in the UK, once one of the most important sports bike markets in the world.

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I agree. What I don't agree with is Lex's assertion that people want "old, air-cooled iron". It's a very US-centric view of biking.



France/Italy have always been funny markets, with millions of scooters sold and the next big bike sale is adventure bikes - remember the TDR250 and the Belgarda 600?



And judging by the last UK BMW club run I went on, more than half were brand new GSA's - with brand new BMW suits and helmets to go with them. Pity they ride like fannies. It's the new fad among the fat middle-aged well-to-do. Sports bikes scare them and insurance companies have spelled the kiss of death to anyone under 30.



Which doesn't mean that it isn't what people want. We are now seeing ridiculously inflated prices for old sports bikes in the UK. Where you used to be able to buy an old Exup FZR for a grand or so, now they are nearly twice that, because new sports bikes are so ridiculously expensive to own and insure. You may as well get the Beemer with the club insurance. I do.

mylexicon said:

I said that it is impossible to use 200hp on the public roadways with road tires.

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Which is, quite simply, absolute ....... bollocks.

Most road racing circuits can barely handle so much performance.

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More bollocks.

You rebutted my postulation with a manifesto about your 1000cc commuting prowess

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And now you are just being a ....... .... off.

AnnoyingTwit said:

Out of curiosity, what would you say would be "enough" horsepower to cover the needs/wants of most riders in most situations? I.e. driving on town and open roads with speed limits.

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He's probably very happy with the 12hp his Chinese 125 makes.

mylexicon said:

Monza just had its homologation revoked in July for inadequate racing surface maintenance. On what grounds do you think the FIM revoked Monza's homologation? Religious grounds?

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It was a problem with the surface that the owners knew of and failed to communicate to Race Direction.



In addition: [font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]the circuit is currently being investigating by Italian law for numerous wrongdoings (bid rigging, tax fraud just to name a few of the more serious offences the management is being accused of) which also includes avoiding to report the condition of the asphalt (bubbles at the Parabolica) during the fourth round of the World Superbike championship that could have endangered the riders.[/font]



Physics? Bollocks!

BJ.C

3385141354450530


Which is, quite simply, absolute ....... bollocks.




More bollocks.




And now you are just being a ....... .... off.

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Ive been away for a nice weekend and come back to Lex taking talking bollocks to a hole new level, lex in the uk BSB has reduced rider aids a great deal for this year the bikes still put out over 200bhp on some of the most narrow and tight tracks around and they cope ok,you talk utter ......

thedeal

3385341354474314


 


 


Ive been away for a nice weekend and come back to Lex taking talking bollocks to a hole new level, lex in the uk BSB has reduced rider aids a great deal for this year the bikes still put out over 200bhp on some of the most narrow and tight tracks around and they cope ok,you talk utter ......

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What was the reason for switching to the 800 formula in motogp then?


 


I have to thank you guys for opening the eyes of we long term posters  to the deficiencies in debating technique many of us obviously have. It is namby pamby to post sentences in educated english rather than to proclaim anything with which we disagree as bollocks and ..... and call posters with whom we disagree ......s, as real men obviously do.

BJ.C

3385131354450351




And judging by the last UK BMW club run I went on, more than half were brand new GSA's - with brand new BMW suits and helmets to go with them. Pity they ride like fannies. It's the new fad among the fat middle-aged well-to-do. Sports bikes scare them and insurance companies have spelled the kiss of death to anyone under 30.



Which doesn't mean that it isn't what people want. We are now seeing ridiculously inflated prices for old sports bikes in the UK. Where you used to be able to buy an old Exup FZR for a grand or so, now they are nearly twice that, because new sports bikes are so ridiculously expensive to own and insure. You may as well get the Beemer with the club insurance. I do.

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These two things are related. Fat middle-aged men were slim young men some 20-30 years ago. Most of those fat middle-aged men are buying GSAs to rekindle their biking passion (now they have the money to do it and the kids have pissed off out of the house), the rest of them are buying the dream bikes of their youths: Exups, fox-eye 'Blades, slabby gixxers. I did the same thing about 15 years ago, bought a YPVS 350. Lovely.


UK bike sales from the MCIA website:


October YTD figures (last month for which they are available) from 2009 and 2012 (remember, 2009 was the depths of the crisis):


Supersports bikes 2009: 17,834  2012: 11,448

Adventure bikes 2009: 9,652   2012: 10,841

Sports/Tour 2009: 7,707  2012: 4,078

Scooters 2009: 14,817  2012: 18,700

michaelm

3385441354483283


What was the reson for switching to the 800 formula in motogp then?

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Dear Real Man, What was the reason for going back to 1000s then?

BJ.C

3385141354450530


And now you are just being a ....... .... off.

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You are denying all that is patently obvious to continue an interpersonal conflict of your own making. I'm not really interested in your quest.


 


I'm concerned with an industry that, as Krop opines, is 'dead on its arse'. The 600cc/1000cc sport bike segment doesn't not contribute significant volume or profitability to the high displacement market, yet it is the foundation of the racing industries we appreciate. The manufacturers are slowly withdrawing and cutting costs, while daring to ponder a future without motorsport marketing. I wonder how the industry will change to provide the funding necessary to keep the motorsport marketing game alive.


 


If you like 1000s, the segment and the rulebook, you have plenty of ammunition. You advocate revision instead of revolution. You mention the hugely inefficient system of converting stock bikes to race bikes according to a half dozen different rulebooks in the AMA, BSB, ASBK, IDM, CEV. Revise the horsepower limits downward slightly to shave 10-15 clicks off of the top speed for safety and cost reduction. Abandon the Pirelli prototype tire which forces the manufacturers to employ GP swingarm design and technology. Dumb-down the rulebook to WSS spec, and then smart-up the bikes by allowing separate SStk and SBK homologations.


 


If the manufacturers shed millions in race subsidies, generate tens of millions in homologation-special sales, and stabilize the national series, are they not induced?

Dr No

3385581354487895


Dear Real Man, What was the reason for going back to 1000s then?

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They wanted to reduce the rev ceiling, improve the marketing concept, and align GP with 1000cc production engines for CRT.


 


Do you think it is a coincidence that 81mm bore limit yields similar peak horsepower figures to the 800s?

mylexicon

3385591354488364


 


You are denying all that is patently obvious to continue an interpersonal conflict of your own making. I'm not really interested in your quest.


 


I'm concerned with an industry that, as Krop opines, is 'dead on its arse'. The 600cc/1000cc sport bike segment doesn't not contribute significant volume or profitability to the high displacement market, yet it is the foundation of the racing industries we appreciate. The manufacturers are slowly withdrawing and cutting costs, while daring to ponder a future without motorsport marketing. I wonder how the industry will change to provide the funding necessary to keep the motorsport marketing game alive.


 


If you like 1000s, the segment and the rulebook, you have plenty of ammunition. You advocate revision instead of revolution. You mention the hugely inefficient system of converting stock bikes to race bikes according to a half dozen different rulebooks in the AMA, BSB, ASBK, IDM, CEV. Revise the horsepower limits downward slightly to shave 10-15 clicks off of the top speed for safety and cost reduction. Abandon the Pirelli prototype tire which forces the manufacturers to employ GP swingarm design and technology. Dumb-down the rulebook to WSS spec, and then smart-up the bikes by allowing separate SStk and SBK homologations.


 


If the manufacturers shed millions in race subsidies, generate tens of millions in homologation-special sales, and stabilize the national series, are they not induced?

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I too, often wonder how the factories can redesign and re-tool every couple of years on models with such low volumes. And the extent to which these flagships are subsided by other sales. I can understand your suggestion to nobble them in order to reduce costs. But your argument that bikes are too fast and need to be slowed down for safety's sake is rather humanitarian.


Suzuka is a special case due to its layout, but while 1000s are being raced on Irish roads, at titchy circuits in the UK, at Broadford locally...knocking a few km's off the top speed wouldn't have avoided any of the race fatalities I can recall. Including ones that happened in front of my eyes.