WRC

Sorry to join in on this late but I don't think Pastrana will be lined up against the WRC aces when he does his WRC one off rides. I don't follow WRC very closely but from what I've read Pastrana will be racing Group N for 2007 then Subaru Rally USA are planning to enter him in the WRC Production class. Is that the class that features Loeb, Grunholm, Martin etc?

Wow, where have I been on this topic. ....... you guys kept it a secret.

Let me set the record straight. Rossi is good, even great perhaps, but there is no comparison to the greatest man ever, living or dead, to compare to Travis Pastrana. Rossi is a one-discipline wonder. Virtually everything Travis has attempted, he has immediately contended for and won. He crossed seemingly all disciplines of racing: surfaces, wheels, speeds, machinery, etc. As soon as he touches it he’s fast. Its like I almost feel sorry for the guys who have dedicated their entire lives to their single motorsport, then comes along this kid Travis and makes them look like second class citizens. He made everybody look silly at the Rally Car event here at the X games. On the same day he was leading the Supermoto event. Incidentally, he did it on the same weekend that he took X games gold in MotoX. Not to mention, it was the very same weekend he pulled off the greatest stunt every accomplished in the history of the two-wheeled planet. If you follow his career as I have, you will know that when he raced Supercross, when healthy, he made both McGrath and Carmichael look slow. And he did this in spectacular fashion. McGrath even admitted himself, (during the same time he raced Carmichael) that it was Travis that he believed to be the most talented and fastest dirtbike rider ever. The thing is that Travis was also competing in extreme sports while also racing supercross. He has beaten the best in every thing he has attempted: MotoX, Rally, Supercross, SuperMoto, Des Nations, Motocross, X games, Baja, etc, etc.

No way does Rossi have anything on Travis Pastrana. Its to bad that MotoGP wasn’t his thing because then you would have really seen a superhuman at work. And one that has balls across disciplines to boot.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Dec 15 2006, 06:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>oh my god, so the arguing with jumkie will continue, except it will be the world devided by rossi and travis fans
No not really. Because it won't even be close enough to argue or debate. Travis would make Rossi look like his Rally Car is running on square tires.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Dec 15 2006, 06:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't want to choose between the two of them, oh god, don't make me do it...

Don't worry, You won't have to, if you like the fast guy, it will quickly be decided for you, Travis of course.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Dec 15 2006, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I ceratinly wouldnt like to pick a favourite between them, but if my old mate jumkie reads this, then Vale is gonna kick Travis's arse!

The only ... that Rossi would see is at the start as he looks at Travis pull away never to be seen again until poor Vale would be back at the pit checking out the winning ceremony on the Teli while the American National Anthem is playing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L8Braker @ Dec 15 2006, 10:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>^^^^^^^^^^^
Your right, because he has nothing left to prove on the bikes, the double back flip is hard to top.

Absolutley, but that's what they said about his stunts 5 years ago. And every year he as done the impossible again. I expect him to continue to set the laws of physics upside down and sideways a few more years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (baldylocks @ Dec 17 2006, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i admire pastrana but i've not seen enough of him to call myself a fan
Why do you like Rossi? Well multiply that by the infinite degree and you have Travis Pastrana.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Dec 19 2006, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>pastrana all the way! he's gonna kick rossi's ...! i'll stand in for jumkie for a bit....... but don't expect the 10,000 word responses.

Unconditionally, unquestionably, and without reservation, I agree. Don’t worry Frosty, I can write for the both of us. Travis is what all the Hayden fans like about Hayden, and all the Rossi fans like about Rossi all wrapped into one astonishingly talented superhuman. And yes, I am a cult worshipping founding member of the Pastranain religion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Dec 20 2006, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I think Pastrana has showed more potential than Rossi in a rally car so far, but he hasn't been competing at the same level as Rossi. Then again, hardcore Pastrana did the Baja 1000, creature-comforts Rossi wouldn't even touch the Dakar with a 50 ft. pole.

You're ....... right Richo. I also agree that he hasn't been competing at the same level as Rossi: Rossi has been doing his thing amongst mortal, Pastrana has been doing his thing against Herculean riders that break the laws of gravity; making mere mortals look like the evolutionary equivalent of the missing link.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 15 2006, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Travis Pastrana would have a great scrap with Rossi as I think they are both around the same stage in learning, Travis may be a little ahead with his youth and career experience but Rossi is still the one to watch!

Rossi is one of the ones to watch if it where MotoGP. But take him out of his element, and I think you will be disappointed. Either way, Travis would make him look like his bike would need training wheels.

I have reacently read up on travis and i feel i must be missing something, i mean, there is no doubt he is very, very good, but i mean its a different league to Rossi really. If he came roadracing i think it wouldnt look so easy for him. I feel his most impressive acheivement is his rally driving success, and i won't try to compare Rossi to that because i don't feel there is enough evidence either way. Bottom line is, rossi is arguably the best gp bike racer in history, and i don't know about how anyone else feels, but that easily outweighs anything travis can do, unless he wins at very least, the world suppersport championship before is career ends, with maybe a bit more rally success to boot.

I guess what i am saying is, does anyone think there is a motorsport harder then gp bike racing, and does anyone think Travis would make a good roadracer? For me the answer to both of these, is no.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yamahamer-AL @ Dec 15 2006, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i say Rossi should stay in GP at least a couple more years, and Travis should go to GP!

That would be great. It wouldn't matter what bike you put him on either, Pastrana's bikes are not limited by the laws of physics, so it really would't matter if the bike had crap power or handling. Travis has always managed to take his bikes and do the impossible.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 15 2007, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have reacently read up on travis and i feel i must be missing something, i mean, there is no doubt he is very, very good, but i mean its a different league to Rossi really. If he came roadracing i think it wouldnt look so easy for him. I feel his most impressive acheivement is his rally driving success, and i won't try to compare Rossi to that because i don't feel there is enough evidence either way. Bottom line is, rossi is arguably the best gp bike racer in history, and i don't know about how anyone else feels, but that easily outweighs anything travis can do, unless he wins at very least, the world suppersport championship before is career ends, with maybe a bit more rally success to boot.

I guess what i am saying is, does anyone think there is a motorsport harder then gp bike racing, and does anyone think Travis would make a good roadracer? For me the answer to both of these, is no.
Of course. Just because you love GP doesn't necessarily mean that this is the most technical or “hardest” motorsport to execute. Please, I can think of several sports way more difficult and dangerous than MotoGP. If you were to ask me, Supercross/Motocross is by far much more difficult to master than GP. On top of that, I don’t necessarily think MotoGP is the hardest motorcycle racing series. Do you think Rossi would be better than Mladin in AMA two years ago, or even this year? Its rather a bit narrow minded to think MotoGP is the pinnacle of motor racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 15 2007, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have reacently read up on travis and i feel i must be missing something
I would say thats an understatement. What have you been reading? If you think his rally is the most impressive success then you are missing alot. You should go back to read somemore before your stick your foot in your mouth on this one buddy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 15 2007, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and i won't try to compare Rossi to that because i don't feel there is enough evidence either way. Bottom line is, rossi is arguably the best gp bike racer in history, and i don't know about how anyone else feels, but that easily outweighs anything travis can do
Coming from a guy that thinks Kevin Schwantz is "overrate" I wouldn't give you much credit on this one. Though we had a good exchange (yet was not convinced) I would think your take on Travis would need to be seriously backed up with some credible evidence to say that you don't think Pastrana holds up to Rossi. I would think the contrary is true. (Oh, by the way, I do think Rossi is one of the greats, but arguably thee "best" no, I don't think so, unless you don't know your history, I could easily make the case for at least three or four riders that toped his accomplishments. I think it was you that said, its not just how many "titles" you win that makes a great rider.

OK, well for starters i'm not in a position to have some kind of fun debate with you right now, basically due to the fact that i don't know a fat lot about anything, and a little bit of alcohol always makes life harder for the brain. However, i think that Rossi wouldnt have too much trouble taking AMA superbike titles, i mean, he'd need his learning year first of course, but i am pretty sure he could do it.

Secondly, you assume its narrow minded of me to have concluded motogp as the pinacle of motorsport, but you cannot be fully aware of my knowledge and education, and it of course depends on your judgement of skill and difficulty. Although i am not gonna claim some kind of superior knowledge of all sports,i just havnt got it.

I would be interested, not for the sake of argument, but for the sake of learning, what sports you think are harder than motogp, hopefully with some reasons, which i would of course expect from you. and also some justification of moto-x over road racing claim.

Also, a slightly sidelined point. To what extent does danger make a sport impressive/difficult. Many answers needed, discussion please. i know i havn't actually attempted any justifucation of my thoughts, but i am all ears right now, so feel free to let rip.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 15 2007, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK, well for starters i'm not in a position to have some kind of fun debate with you right now, basically due to the fact that i don't know a fat lot about anything, and a little bit of alcohol always makes life harder for the brain. p.
Ok, that explains alot. Haha. hey have a drink for me. I was gonna say you started to sound like a mindless cheerleader for Rossi, but I see you've had a few, and the dumbing down of your thought processes must be putting you closer to the bottom dwells of this site. (Joke).

Anyway, Ok. I don't have much time but I can certainly revisit this topic. Or perhaps we can generate a whole new topic for the rest to chime in.

It is certainly very difficult to compare riders from one era to another in the same discipline, having said that, it is even more problematical to compare riders across disciplines. However, I’ll be brief here. I don’t really want to get into giving you why I think Rossi is certainly not thee greatest of all time. It would take too much time to get nowhere unless you were willing to accept if you’re a fan of the guy he wasn’t necessarily the “best” ever. So we would just be going in circles.

As to the question of comparing Rossi and Pastrana. We are gonna need to dedicate an entire night to that, and I’m up for that challenge, so long as it doesn’t deteriorate how the other thread did, becoming a joke fest to say my/your rider is the best. So lets shelf this one for now.

As to the question of what is the greatest/hardest/difficult, etc motor sport. I would have to say it is Motocross. Here are a few reasons. These are off the cuff, and if you really wanted a more though answer from me, you would need to wait a few days (very busy at the moment).

But here are a few we can talk about right now:

For one Motorcross has a changing surface. Something not seen in roadracing. The track is constantly changing (much more so than roadracing) and the rider must relentlessly adjust to this reality. Second, the motorcrosser must negotiate many obstacles, that have been placed there specifically to challenge the rider, ruts, jumps, stutter bumps, etc. Not so much in roadracing. Yes the layouts and apex curves are different but so are the track layouts in various motocross venues. Thirdly, fitness is much more required in motocross than in roadracing. Some guys can get away with not being in top fitness in roadracing and make up for it in talent (i.e. Casey Stoner), but this is not the case in motocross. As a matter of fact, I read a study many years ago, in a sports medicine journal, which found top motocrossers as “thee” fittest of athletes. Yes, even more fit than soccer, tennis, wrestlers, gymnasts, and boxers. And lastly (for now) the window for a great motocrosser is much more narrower than a roadracer. Most modern roadracers started as motorcrossers. If they would have been extremely talented in this, I suspect most of them would have stayed in this sport. Yet they didn’t which indicates to me that “most” who have stayed have been the ones with the greater talent and fitness. Those who haven’t have gone on to other motosport, i.e. roadracing.

I’m sure I can think of a few more reasons, but I tried typing as fast as I can before you get too drunk to respond.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 15 2007, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have reacently read up on travis

What would you say if I said: I have recently "read up on Rossi" to formulate my opinion about him?

Here is my advice, nothing you could read will ever scratch the surface of what this guy has accomplished. You would need to start watching what he's done.

Its rather unfortunate that we still have a divide across the Atlantic when it comes to coverage of eachothers past times. Part of this, I think, has contributed to eachothers stereotype of one another, sociologically speaking.

Which I think explains why there are not more Rossi fans here and more Pastrana (and Hayden) fans there. Frankly, we haven’t seen much off them respective to where we live.

You have been robbed of seeing the greatest person to ever have ridden a motorcycle.

More pure talent, Rossi versus Pastrana? Wow. I don't think there is any way to really compare but we might as well look at their endeavors and how they fared.

Pastrana:
1999 X Games FMX Gold Medalist, Gravity Games FMX Gold Medalist; 2000 125cc AMA MX National Champion, AMA Rookie of the Year, X Games FMX Gold Medalist, MX des Nations Champion.
2001 125cc SX East Champion, Gravity Games FMX Gold Medalist, X Games FMX Gold Medalist, X Games Step Up Silver Medalist.
2002 Gravity Games FMX and Step Up Gold Medalist.
2003 X Games FMX Gold Medalist, Gravity Games FMX Silver Medalist.
2004 Red Bull X Fighters Gold Medalist, X Games FMX Silver Medalist, Rim of The World Pro Rally Bronze Medalist.
2005 X Games FMX Gold Medalist, Dew Action Sports Tour FMX Gold Medalist.
2006 X Games FMX, Best Trick and Rally Gold Medalist, two Dew Action Sports Tour Gold Medals, one Silver Medal, Red Bull X Fighters Gold Medalist, North American Rally Champion.

Rossi:
1996 9th 125cc World Championship
1997 125cc World Champion
1998 2nd 250cc World Championship
1999 250cc World Champion
2000 2nd 500cc World Championship
2001 500cc World Champion
2002 MotoGP World Champion
2003 MotoGP World Champion
2004 MotoGP World Champion
2005 MotoGP World Champion, Monza Rally Champion
2006 2nd MotoGP World CHampionship, Monza Rally Champion, 11th Rally NZ.
Rossi also has some karting accomplishments that I can't find or recall so add them if you feel.

The longer I type and the more my head hurts I come to realize this post is pointless. Both men are rididculously talented.

More talent? Who knows, pit them against one another in a car? Pastrana. He went to the semis at the RoC single handed, he beat guys who drive cars for a living. Says something.

It'd be awesome to see Rossi at the ROC, put his 'talent' to the test.

Please RJ, you are becoming a hypocrite. You accuse other forum members of being 'delusional' for putting Rossi on a pedastal, tet you are doing the same for Pastrana, I don't know how your attitude would differ had Rossi been an American.

Try not to compare Moto gp and MX please, they are two entirely different disciplines. Let's compare F1 and WRC shall we?

As much respect as I have for Mr 'double backflip' Pastrana, I don't think he could hack it in moto gp. Simply because of the difference. But I agree he is a phenomenal talent nonethless.

Cars are so much easier to drive on the limit than bikes are.

As I recall, Rossi didn't do too badly when he was testing with the other F1 lads.

I LOVE DEBATE!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 16 2007, 05:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is certainly very difficult to compare riders from one era to another in the same discipline, having said that, it is even more problematical to compare riders across disciplines. However, I’ll be brief here. I don’t really want to get into giving you why I think Rossi is certainly not thee greatest of all time. It would take too much time to get nowhere unless you were willing to accept if you’re a fan of the guy he wasn’t necessarily the “best” ever. So we would just be going in circles.

I totally agree with you about these difficulties, it truly boggles the mind. However i will readily accept that i am a Rossi fand and he is'nt necessarily the "best" ever. Like you said, comparing accross ers it difficult, especially when i have only been alive for one (bias due to exposure perhaps).

Anyway, as for the difficult/hardest motorsport thing it again is a tough one. But i have to put a mention in for WRC because i still can't get over how they do what they do. And no matter how many driver aids they have we can't pretend F1 drivers arn't actually well good(understatement)

But i would not consider motorcross to be superior to grand prix roadracing. and here is why.

-the changing surface thing i think sort of works both ways, because the challange for a circuit racer consists less of changing surface and the judgement required to negotiate that as fast as possible, and more of the accuracy and control required to ride on te knife ede of grip and the same peice of tarmac everytime round, and at higher speeds too. So i consider that a tie.

-The fitness thing, i don't doubt that the motocross riders are probably fitter than gp roadracers, but these guys are all athletes of the highest order, and i'd say the difference becomes negligable. Not to mention the fact that most gp riders don't want extra muscle mass because its weight they don't need to shift.

-Now, as for the fact that a lot of roadracers start on motocross and move into the tarmac world, i don't think this reflects moto-x being too difficult for them, but actually just less of a thrill. I mean i have read that Chris walker is still fast enough to be a hugely successful motorcrosser if he wanted to. How many moto-x guys could win roadraces if they fancied it, i would suggest not many. My argument is also supported by the fact that the best supermoto rider at the moment is Ben Bostrom, a road racer.

As for the personal rossi against Travis deal, maybe you should start a thread just for this if you have a lot to say, because i feel it could be al ong one.

Cheers, Tom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 16 2007, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I totally agree with you about these difficulties, it truly boggles the mind. However i will readily accept that i am a Rossi fand and he is'nt necessarily the "best" ever. Like you said, comparing accross ers it difficult, especially when i have only been alive for one (bias due to exposure perhaps).

Anyway, as for the difficult/hardest motorsport thing it again is a tough one. But i have to put a mention in for WRC because i still can't get over how they do what they do. And no matter how many driver aids they have we can't pretend F1 drivers arn't actually well good(understatement)

But i would not consider motorcross to be superior to grand prix roadracing. and here is why.

-the changing surface thing i think sort of works both ways, because the challange for a circuit racer consists less of changing surface and the judgement required to negotiate that as fast as possible, and more of the accuracy and control required to ride on te knife ede of grip and the same peice of tarmac everytime round, and at higher speeds too. So i consider that a tie.

-The fitness thing, i don't doubt that the motocross riders are probably fitter than gp roadracers, but these guys are all athletes of the highest order, and i'd say the difference becomes negligable. Not to mention the fact that most gp riders don't want extra muscle mass because its weight they don't need to shift.

-Now, as for the fact that a lot of roadracers start on motocross and move into the tarmac world, i don't think this reflects moto-x being too difficult for them, but actually just less of a thrill. I mean i have read that Chris walker is still fast enough to be a hugely successful motorcrosser if he wanted to. How many moto-x guys could win roadraces if they fancied it, i would suggest not many. My argument is also supported by the fact that the best supermoto rider at the moment is Ben Bostrom, a road racer.

As for the personal rossi against Travis deal, maybe you should start a thread just for this if you have a lot to say, because i feel it could be al ong one.

Cheers, Tom

A very good, well written, unbiased post this, nice one Tom. Its not a cut and dried one this, back in the early 90's, Stephane Peterhansel kicked a lot of big name GP butt in supermoto. And that is widely regarded as the era of the "Gods". I remember at the time he wa being hailed as probably the greatest bike racer of his generation, then he went on to own the Dakar, first on 2 then on 4 wheels.

Not bad for a French enduro rider!

On the flipside though, the lightning fast moto/supercross rider Jean Michel Bayle got his arse kicked big time in GP.......

To be honest, I think some guys just have success in their genes. it would be foolhardy to think that a top rider in any discipline could not have been just as successful in another.


And as for the greatest ever debate, If Mike Hailwood, Ago or Roberts was beating Hayden, mr "unbiased and rational" Jumkie would be calling them overated and anyone who liked them "mindless"


History will tell who was the man of the moment in MotoGP at the turn of the 21st century, and with all due respect, it's not gonna be Hayden. Travis will certainly go down for his achievements but (it grates for me to say it, I cant stand the guy) Carmichael will be remembered as the off road motorcycle racer of this Era.

I've no doubt some people will take this post as a red rag to a bull, (Talking about a successful Frenchman, suggesting that Hayden is not the greatest racer, in fact living being ever, and god forbid, paying respect to what Vale HAS won, all punishable by death by unfeasibly long "interesting" reply in some peoples eyes, but hey, like I say, I dont make a habit of putting forward views that I cant back up.

Pete

I await the invasion and subsequent occupation of this thread by the Hayden Police.......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 16 2007, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I await the invasion and subsequent occupation of this thread by the Hayden Police.......

Lovely

One thing i want to add is that its gonna be very diificult in the motorsports debate in hand to fall into the trap of using all time greats and mega talents as our reference points, i think maybe we should be using people that do better to represent the sport as a whole. The rider to rider debates across different disciplines is a whole other argument.

Also, i agree that the History books will show Rossi as "the man" of this era, but the name Hayden will come up as the guy who took his crown, so its not like he'll just get forgotten.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 16 2007, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lovely

One thing i want to add is that its gonna be very diificult in the motorsports debate in hand to fall into the trap of using all time greats and mega talents as our reference points, i think maybe we should be using people that do better to represent the sport as a whole. The rider to rider debates across different disciplines is a whole other argument.

Also, i agree that the History books will show Rossi as "the man" of this era, but the name Hayden will come up as the guy who took his crown, so its not like he'll just get forgotten.

Youre right there Tom, Hayden has got his place in History. My thing with Hayden is not that he took Rossi's title, that was gonna happen at some point, somebody was gonna do it. I wish the guy would hit the front a few times and put the race to bed, (but not at Laguna!!!!!) He's got that Alex Creville thing going on, right place at the right time, always there or there abouts, but never at the sharp end. his only victory outside the States (so far), will be remebered for Edwards making an arse of it while leading more than Nicky dominating, he was wobbling all over the grass and out of contention for the win when Edwards crashed!

This is when the guy needs to show whether he is a racer or not. Lets not forget, Honda through a lot of money, riders and bikes at beating Rossi since he left. Beating Rossi was more important to Honda than who won the title, because he had walked away and kicked their arse. As we all know, anyone can win the title on a Honda (copyright HRC manual), and Honda had loadsa riders nipping away taking points from Valentino all year, and still, Hayden could only win by 5 points....

Jumkie keeps going on about Rossi "bottling it" in the last race, like Ive said before, he was the one under pressure, he had half of the paddock chasing him on RCVs, some who would knock anybody off to get a win!
The fact he got back up and went for it shows more guts than most people will ever know!

Where I do feel Hayden let himself down was all the blubbing about how Asimo could have cost him the title. Yeah it was a bloody stupid move, but we have plenty of them every week in motorsport, the secret is to win a title by winning races, not relying on other people to do you favours. Thats F1, not GP. leave it to the procession guys!

The fact is, Rossi will be remembered as one of the greatest riders ever. Rightly so, he's earned it. Hayden will be remembered as a world champion, rightly so, he earned it too, but lets keep it in perspective, Kenny Roberts Jnr and Alex Criville were both world champions, but lets be honest (yes even you Jumkie!) it takes a big imagination to put either of them down as riders of the calibre of Roberts Snr, Doohan, Rainey and of course Rossi.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Jan 16 2007, 02:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Please RJ, you are becoming a hypocrite.
Its rather amazing that you could read my posts and still not understand the concept of wittiness. Perhaps this concept is too complicated to comprehend but it seems you picked up on the overwhelming tone of Rossi fan/worshipers. Which is the point. "Hypocracy" was infact the pun, but you missed the direction. The "pun" was intended. But I see that you missed it entirely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 16 2007, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I await the invasion and subsequent occupation of this thread by the Hayden Police.......
I guess it was too much for me to expect to have an actual debate after I attempted to make the disclaimer about deterioration.

It would seem a good debate to compare these two guys, but I'm thinking it’s futile. Especially when dealing with the ultra bias borderline cultic.

Yet, for a fleeting moment I forgot the predominance of the inclinations of posters on this site, It’s rather obvious, so the best would be to shelf debate until we can actually get some input by members with non-rossie colored glasses.

Pete, the mistake, you and many others seem to make is talking as if Hayden is over. So ok it is fair and acceptable of you to predict that this will be the height of his success, because thats your judgement. But to build in that judgement to your critisism of the current world champ isn't so realistic. All i am saying is that Hayden could turn out to be a big deal, hes still pretty new. If it was 1994 and I told you Schwantz was over and doohan was "the man" and one of the greats, you would probably have laughed. So lets give Hayden the beneiffit of the doubt. Not saying Nicky will be the next big thing but I would be surprised if he could manage a worse title defence than KRJR

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 17 2007, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pete, the mistake, you and many others seem to make is talking as if Hayden is over. So ok it is fair and acceptable of you to predict that this will be the height of his success, because thats your judgement. But to build in that judgement to your critisism of the current world champ isn't so realistic. All i am saying is that Hayden could turn out to be a big deal, hes still pretty new. If it was 1994 and I told you Schwantz was over and doohan was "the man" and one of the greats, you would probably have laughed. So lets give Hayden the beneiffit of the doubt. Not saying Nicky will be the next big thing but I would be surprised if he could manage a worse title defence than KRJR


Can I correct you on one thing here, I was a major Doohan fan a good bit before 93!

I'm certainly not saying we've seen the last of Hayden, what I am saying is that he really has to up his game here, if he wants to keep that No1 on his bike. I would be very surprised if 2 wins was good enough next year, so he has to up his game or forget keeping the title, and I'm not just talkng about Rossi here, No one could deny that on his day, Capirossi was amazing, but, he didnt get the luck this time. and he's not the only one!

Dont take it to heart, I'm not knocking Haystack down, I'm giving a realistic appraisal here. If you think that another year of 3rds and 4ths will be good enough, fair enough, but I have to disagree with you on that.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 16 2007, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But i would not consider motorcross to be superior to grand prix roadracing. and here is why.

Good points, and like any debate, maybe no right or wrong answer. As I was writing up my post about MotoX being more difficult than MotoGP, I was haning out with a friend that is an avid Baseball fan. He argued with me that baseball was "clearly" much more difficult to master than either of the too motorsports. He gave me his reasons, some pretty goo I may add. Which it then dawned on me that the debate has more to do with your personal interests and predujusices rather than the actual "truth" (if one exists).

I think MotoX is the most difficult of the motorsports to master.
You think it MotoGP. (Being that I'm on a MotoGP site, I'm sure most would agree with you obviously).

So it seems, we are to agree to disagree.

As for the Travis vs Rossi debate, the same above reasoning holds true and more so perhaps considering the site. So lets leave it at:

I think Travis is the greatest talent of all motorsports past and present.
Most think Rossi is on this site.

Given the difficulties of this debate, we have to agree to disagree. I suppose there are people out there that think Schumacher is the greatest of all time and other perhaps Sienna. Its painfully obvious the inclinations here, despite evidence to the contrary, all we can do is debate it I guess.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 17 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its rather amazing that you could read my posts and still not understand the concept of wittiness. Perhaps this concept is too complicated to comprehend but it seems you picked up on the overwhelming tone of Rossi fan/worshipers. Which is the point. "Hypocracy" was infact the pun, but you missed the direction. The "pun" was intended. But I see that you missed it entirely.
I guess it was too much for me to expect to have an actual debate after I attempted to make the disclaimer about deterioration.

It would seem a good debate to compare these two guys, but I'm thinking it’s futile. Especially when dealing with the ultra bias borderline cultic.

Yet, for a fleeting moment I forgot the predominance of the inclinations of posters on this site, It’s rather obvious, so the best would be to shelf debate until we can actually get some input by members with non-rossie colored glasses.

Yawn!!!!!!!!

Oh no! I cant argue with cold hard facts, so I'll have to cry about everyone being Rossi lovers!

Take the skirt off man! It plainly says in my post that Hayden earned his title! I also say "I Wish he'd hit the front more and put the race to bed"

I'm quite happy to give Hayden respect for what he's done, sadly you just cant handle the fact that Rossi has the better track record!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArgh!

Pete