Toseland to Yamaha in 2008 - It's Official according to a Dutch site

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(krusty @ Aug 6 2007, 01:50 PM) [snapback]83392[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Reality ... Bayliss has more MotoGP wins than Edwards! Now that's a Fact!!!!



It is sad to compare riders based on one single race and one single set of circumstances when they raced together for almost 6 seasons. If you actually look at all the facts (not just the ones you like) it is clear that colin is better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 6 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]83389[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Do you think he should be given a break because of his age, should he get a head start (or 200cc advantage ) to keep him competative?


Not at all. Toseland is obviously better than him now. The point I was making is that any rider no matter how good eventually gets slower if they go on too long, and Bayliss has probably reached that point. That does not mean you can trash his whole career. I am not even going to argue whether Bayliss at his peak was better than Toseland now( Toseland may well not have reached his peak), as they are or were both good and this is pointless to argue and impossible to determine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Aug 6 2007, 02:07 PM) [snapback]83398[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Not at all. Toseland is obviously better than him now. The point I was making is that any rider no matter how good eventually gets slower if they go on too long, and Bayliss has probably reached that point. That does not mean you can trash his whole career. I am not even going to argue whether Bayliss at his peak was better than Toseland now( Toseland may well not have reached his peak), as they are or were both good and this is pointless to argue and impossible to determine.


I rate Bayliss a better overall superbike rider than Jt is.

I was not trashing his entire career, i was mearly highlighting his shortcomings (which many on here ignore) which have always been there, however are now more obvious than ever as he is past his best.

Chris Vermeulen is great in the wet, but is clearly overshadowed by Hopkins in the dry (other than Laguna because its an anomoly for CV)... If Chris can improve his dry form then he'll be a real threat, until then he's just another WSBK star struggling to come to terms, like Toseland could end up being..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(krusty @ Aug 6 2007, 01:59 PM) [snapback]83396[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Ask any rider (at this level) and ALL that counts is championships and race wins!

Each has 2 SBK championships! Fact!
Colin doesn't have a win in MotoGP.

I like Colin but he has underachieved in MotoGP. To say it is clear that he is better is basically incorrect!


I think the people who count rate Edwards higher than Bayliss because he has a factory GP ride, and Troy doesn't. I would agree that Colin has underachieved in motogp but nowhere near to the extent Bayliss did when given his shot. 2005 was one of the most embarassing uses of a Honda v5 in the entire 990 era. If you looked to the time these riders shared in superbike you would also see that when they went head to head in 2002 Edwards showed that he was the better rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 6 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]83400[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I rate Bayliss a better overall superbike rider than Jt is.

I was not trashing his entire career, i was mearly highlighting his shortcomings (which many on here ignore) which have always been there, however are now more obvious than ever as he is past his best.


We don't fundamentally disagree then.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(antfan @ Aug 6 2007, 02:14 PM) [snapback]83401[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Chris Vermeulen is great in the wet, but is clearly overshadowed by Hopkins in the dry (other than Laguna because its an anomoly for CV)... If Chris can improve his dry form then he'll be a real threat, until then he's just another WSBK star struggling to come to terms, like Toseland could end up being..


I agree, Chris is one level down of where he needs to be. I think he has another year to get to the front of the pack though, so its to early to make a final call on his grand prix effort. I consider CV and JT to be riders of very similar ability and talent, so i expect similar performance from James, just without the wet weather specials.

"Replace CV with Ant West
Hopkins with DePuniet
WSBK with WSS

gave me laugh!"



Ant West has the 250 style down pat and is just about as quick as DePuniet in the dry after only three races! Comparing CV/Hopper to Ant/DeP is ridiculous.. Ant will end up quicker than CV in the dry, could even be as early as Brno.. He will be challenging Randy aswell soon, oh wait, he allready has been..

Ant isnt a WSS star, hes simply a great rider who got a chance to show his ability in WSS for three races and now he's reaping the rewards.. Just wait and see mate..

That was one nice striptease!!

Well done (I mean riding)!! I'm not a fan, but I can't wait to see him in Moto GP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(basspete @ Aug 5 2007, 07:47 PM) [snapback]83330[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

In the press this week Ive been reading about how Bayliss was out to spoil Toselands party for him and his fans. He was quoted as sayibng that was more important to him than winning the championship.What an arogant ........, sadly for Bayliss (funny for the rest of us) it's bitten him right on the arse.

Pete


Bayliss said that???!!!
NO WAY!! He wouldn't do such a thing!! (I know the guy )
Seriously, where can I see that? (although I still wouldn't believe it)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(antfan @ Aug 6 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]83406[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Ant West has the 250 style down pat and is just about as quick as DePuniet in the dry after only three races! Comparing CV/Hopper to Ant/DeP is ridiculous.. Ant will end up quicker than CV in the dry, could even be as early as Brno.. He will be challenging Randy aswell soon, oh wait, he allready has been..

Ant isnt a WSS star, hes simply a great rider who got a chance to show his ability in WSS for three races and now he's reaping the rewards.. Just wait and see mate..


I agree the comparisons are slightly different. The difference between West and Randy in the dry is smaller than the difference between CV and Hopper, especially as DePuniet is inconsistent and keeps falling off whenever he is fast. I will be interested to see how soon West's learning curve levels off, i think there is more to come from him yet. CV on the other hand has levelled off a bit now and is just looking for that extra touch he needs, that may never come.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(memento @ Aug 6 2007, 02:27 PM) [snapback]83407[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
That was one nice striptease!!



Typical

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(memento @ Aug 6 2007, 02:27 PM) [snapback]83407[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
but I can't wait to see him in Moto GP.


You do realize he only takes his clothes off when he wins?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(krusty @ Aug 6 2007, 02:37 PM) [snapback]83411[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
1. There was a couple of points in the 2002 championship ... if I remember it came down to the last round to decide the championship! Hardly a clear indication!

2005 was not a good year for Bayliss ... I agree with that. Was hardly a factory bike though!


1. It was close in points but when the pressure was on Bayliss didn't deal with it well, which is what i said earlier and you challenged me on.

2. It was not a factory bike at all, but it was capable of winning races. To see how colin would manage in that situation look at Colin's previous season, there you can really see the difference in these riders class.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Aug 6 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]83405[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I agree, Chris is one level down of where he needs to be. I think he has another year to get to the front of the pack though, so its to early to make a final call on his grand prix effort. I consider CV and JT to be riders of very similar ability and talent, so i expect similar performance from James, just without the wet weather specials.


Although I am a great fan of Chris Vermeulen's and followed him avidly in supersports and superbikes and continue to cheer him in motogp now, I agree with Tom and Antfan which is why I made the inital comment. He has had nearly 2 full seasons in motogp now and should be faster in the dry, particularly in practice. Even the Suzuki team earlier this year said they had concerns about his qualifying performance in the dry. I hope that his performances at Laguna Seca , a track he is more familiar with than most, reflect his true potential rather than being an anomaly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Aug 6 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]83414[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Although I am a great fan of Chris Vermeulen's and followed him avidly in supersports and superbikes and continue to cheer him in motogp now, I agree with Tom and Antfan which is why I made the inital comment. He has had nearly 2 full seasons in motogp now and should be faster in the dry, particularly in practice. Even the Suzuki team earlier this year said they had concerns about his qualifying performance in the dry. I hope that his performances at Laguna Seca , a track he is more familiar with than most, reflect his true potential rather than being an anomaly.


His practice form may be poor but it is not a limiting factor. Look at his races in Assen and Mugello where he started at the front. In both cases he moved steadily back towards the positions that truly represent his dry pace, strangely close to where he normaly qualifies.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(krusty @ Aug 6 2007, 02:53 PM) [snapback]83416[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
and what of the 2001 season?

and what of last year when Colin had the chance to win his first MotoGP race at Assen? ... he really copped well under pressure there binning it at the final corner!


Bayliss won 2001 of course, but you can only find 2 examples of Bayliss beating Colin in the championship they compete in but there are 4 examples of Colin beating Troy.

There is no denying that colin messed up badly at Assen, but that was a rare blip in his normal consistent behaviour, not something you could say about Troys crashes.