The end of FACTORY racing

I agree with a lot of things here, but still what is Suzuki's current budget? I know Honda has increased spending a lot, but has Suzuki also. I would guess they are spending a fraction of what Honda spends. The reason why this is relevent to me is that this year with one rider and a shoestring budget Suzuki are actually closer than they were with a 990. So it is more a matter of getting the maximum value of every dollar spent, using it wisely rather than just spending big. Small companies compete against big companies successfully when they are more efficient.

There is no set of rules that can prevent a manufacturer or private team wasting a budget on a futile project and finishing last even with the biggest budget - see Ducati. This year they must of spent as much as Honda on the bike, more than Honda for the rider (Rossi $15M vs Stoner $5 M) and have nothing to show for it. Cant blame fuel or 800cc or anything else for that. Blame the frame or lack thereof. Rossi complains of lack of front feel, not lack of fuel. The fuel reg is stupid but I doubt it makes that much of a difference. A crap design is a crap design regardless.

Kropotkin said:

Not necessarily, but you are right to point out that cost is only one side of the equation. The big problem with MotoGP is the disastrous failure to secure sponsorship. I will put good money on Yamaha running without a sponsor again next year, and that doesn't have all that much to do with cost. The income side has always been the series' Achilles heel because of tobacco sponsorship. Those years, the teams had money thrown at them, and it distorted their view of reality. They are only just waking up to the reality of the situation now.

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Tobacco sponsorship is a problem for the teams, but the international feed is the problem for the series, imo. Producing a single HD international feed supposedly costs an arm and a leg, and the price doesn't scale well with revenues. The cost of F1's international feed is allegedly over $100M, but the spread the cost over $1B in revenues. I doubt MotoGP can produce an international feed for appreciably less, which means the international HD feed is probably devouring between 1/4 and 1/3 of all revenues. The cost of TV production is basically non-negotiable b/c TV companies and fans have high expectations.



Let's suppose TV is about 1/3 of total revenue (rumored at $250M, right?). Let's say Dorna give another 1/3 to IRTA, $80M, which is about $6M per factory machine, $2M per satellite bike, and about $100K for bikes in Moto2 and Moto3. A pittance compared to their actual cost, imo, so the teams and factories are forced to lean on sponsors and corporate shareholders. That leaves about $80M for Dorna to transport the circus all over the world, maintain world-class staff, and entertain sponsors. Suppose they do it for $48M which leaves $32M in profit. Bridgepoint gets 75% ($24M) and Dorna gets 25% ($8M). I believe those are close to the actual numbers given by Dorna. IIRC, Bridgepoint paid nearly $700M for MotoGP so they are getting their ..... handed to them on this deal.



I reckon 2/3 of the cost curve cannot be manipulated. The cost of travel, lodging, and staffing can not be reduced. The cost of the international feed cannot be reduced. MotoGP can only survive in 2 ways. 1) drastically reduce the cost of the bikes and pay IRTA less money 2) double revenue by creating a dynamic sport (990s). Which way do they go? I'd be a millionaire if I had $1 for every time a motorcyclist said that motorcycle racing will never go mainstream. If that's the case, then dumbing down the bikes is MotoGP's only recourse.



I reject the premise of zero growth, but Rossi's impending departure means MotoGP has a very limited time to get things rolling.

mylexicon said:

Tobacco sponsorship is a problem for the teams, but the international feed is the problem for the series, imo. Producing a single HD international feed supposedly costs an arm and a leg, and the price doesn't scale well with revenues. The cost of F1's international feed is allegedly over $100M, but the spread the cost over $1B in revenues. I doubt MotoGP can produce an international feed for appreciably less, which means the international HD feed is probably devouring between 1/4 and 1/3 of all revenues. The cost of TV production is basically non-negotiable b/c TV companies and fans have high expectations.

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As I understand it (though I'm not 100% sure of this), the cost of production for the feed is borne by the broadcaster of the territory the race is being held in. Numbers are much smaller though, and probably vary by race as well.

Kropotkin said:

As I understand it (though I'm not 100% sure of this), the cost of production for the feed is borne by the broadcaster of the territory the race is being held in. Numbers are much smaller though, and probably vary by race as well.

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Ah, the beauty of internet debate. If you hadn't typed your response, I would never have gone googling and found this article.



http://www.garethbouch.com/2011/01/10/the-big-picture-the-story-of-motogps-international-tv-feed/



Some highlights:

For several years now the whole production of the MotoGP international TV feed has been a genuinely global exercise, with a permanent crew of around 120 plus all the production gear and facilities that come with them being moved around the world in order to provide the ultimate in quality and consistency in TV production for the sport.

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During the season the set-up and dismantling of the whole production infrastructure becomes very much an ongoing task, especially when races run back to back and the whole operation runs on a cycle of 7 days… Monday heralds the arrival of all the gear, Tuesday and Wednesday are used for setting up, with Thursday being the pre-event testing day to make sure all is well. Friday, Saturday and Sunday are spent covering the event itself – plus of course making any necessary changes and adjustments throughout – and then Sunday night is used to take everything down again and move it on to the next venue.

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We work with a varying number of cameras depending on the circuit – here at Valencia it is just over 100 as it is a small circuit, around 4 kilometres

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Lots of good info about the gyroscopic cam they are developing with Gigawave, and the importance of switching all onboard cameras to HD. I've often noticed the big discrepancy between the quality of the MotoGP camera work and the SBK camera work. Perhaps the biggest change in WSBK will be Bridgepoints ability to leverage Dorna know-how regarding the TV production.

birdman said:

...this year with one rider and a shoestring budget Suzuki are actually closer than they were with a 990.

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Suzuki had 126 manufacturer's points in '06 and 73 this year... Top Suzi rider in '06 63 points, this year 67. How exactly are they "closer than they were with a 990"?

mylexicon said:

I believe those are close to the actual numbers given by Dorna.

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Is there an annual report available on the intertubes? I'm not finding it.

Mick D said:

Suzuki had 126 manufacturer's points in '06 and 73 this year... Top Suzi rider in '06 63 points, this year 67. How exactly are they "closer than they were with a 990"?

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2002 990 top Suzuki 9th 99 points

2003 17th 29 points

2004 16th 45 points

2005 13th 63 points

2006 10th 116 points

Total 990 = 352, average 70



2007 800 4th 189 points

2008 8th 128 points

2009 9th 110 points

2010 13th 85 points

2011 12th 67 points

Total 800 = 579, average 116



With one bike, minimum budget, minimum development, first two races Bautista not competing due to injury, 4 crashes, yet its a better year than they had in 2003, 2004, 2005.



We even have peeps wanting to see Rossi on the Suzuki rather than the Ducati, claiming on a Suzuki he would be more competitive.

Well according to ur stats Suzuki was improving throughout the 990 era whereas they are getting progressively worse thought (EDIT: ooops through out) the 800 era...

Mick D said:

Well according to ur stats Suzuki was improving throughout the 990 era whereas they are getting progressively worse thought (EDIT: ooops through out) the 800 era...

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Its a bit hard to ignore 2007. Under the new terrible rules Suzuki riders finished 4th and 6th. I dont know if its just a coincidence but the GFC hit in 2008. It was however negligent and dumb management for the MSMA and DORNA to continue allowing costs to increase post 2008 because it should have been obvious this was unsustainable. Im pissed because they all allowed it to get to this point, where CRT alone is viewed as an acceptable outcome. If 990 would have halved the cost why did the idiots wait so long? And why not dust off the exact same 990's as 2006 to save money? I hate 81mm 4 cylinder bore ......... If Kroppo says it is primarily the MSMA then I understand the '.... the manufacturers' thing. But I dont blame it all on prototype racing, or agree to the claim 990's were a closer competition. Bad designs are bad no matter what the rules.

birdman said:

Its a bit hard to ignore 2007. Under the new terrible rules Suzuki riders finished 4th and 6th.

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First year of a new formula cam produce some surprising results... how many were betting on a Stoner/Duc domination?

birdman said:

Its a bit hard to ignore 2007. Under the new terrible rules Suzuki riders finished 4th and 6th. I dont know if its just a coincidence but the GFC hit in 2008. It was however negligent and dumb management for the MSMA and DORNA to continue allowing costs to increase post 2008 because it should have been obvious this was unsustainable. Im pissed because they all allowed it to get to this point, where CRT alone is viewed as an acceptable outcome. If 990 would have halved the cost why did the idiots wait so long? And why not dust off the exact same 990's as 2006 to save money? I hate 81mm 4 cylinder bore ......... If Kroppo says it is primarily the MSMA then I understand the '.... the manufacturers' thing. But I dont blame it all on prototype racing, or agree to the claim 990's were a closer competition. Bad designs are bad no matter what the rules.

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They were so much more fun to watch though and like the 500s you could get an idea of the amounts of power the riders had to deal with. I still see a little bit of it with the 800s but they're so smooth and(thanks to electronics) aren't as fun for me personally. I know smooth is fast but something about the bikes needs to be raw and gritty. Nobody had to ever tell me GP bikes were the fastest and most powerful in the world, I could see it with my own eyes and I loved it. I can't tell you how many times I'd say fuuuck while being in awe of the bikes, now I never get to cuss.

Beef Supreme said:

Is there an annual report available on the intertubes? I'm not finding it.

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No annual report b/c Dorna and Bridgepoint are private. The numbers came from an article on Krops site a while back. Dorna were boasting that they had $250M turnover (IIRC), but costs were so out of control that Dorna only turned $8M in profits. Bridgepoint are entitled to the other 75% of the profits b/c they bought a 75% stake back in 2006 after CVC (F1) were forced to sell GP at the peak of its popularity.



The info is fragmented all over the net.

Thanks, yourlexicon.

mylexicon said:

back in 2006 after CVC (F1) were forced to sell GP at the peak of its popularity.

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This is a big point , which you were the first to make, when dorna is being criticised.



Everything was going fine, motogp was being run by motorsport guys, there were possibly synergies involved such as not totally duplicating broadcasting resources/expenses, and the sale was forced because of some bureaucrat's (presumably an EU bureaucrat, a breed not proving to be particularly good at economics just now) notion about competition. The eventual result could well be the demise of motogp which would mean it will no longer competing with F1 anyway even if it ever was in the first place, and WSBK and Motogp now have common ownership which you would think potentially lessens competition/creates a monopoly to a much greater degree.

michaelm said:

...WSBK and Motogp now have common ownership which you would think potentially lessens competition/creates a monopoly to a much greater degree.

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Sorry for the ignorance here, but, does Bridgepoint own a majority of WSBK as well? I thought the Flamini Bros owned WSBK...

Mick D said:

Sorry for the ignorance here, but, does Bridgepoint own a majority of WSBK as well? I thought the Flamini Bros owned WSBK...

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It was announced recently that the parent company for dorna, which I think is bridgepoint, now own the rights to wsbk as well. I am not sure where the flamminis sit in all of this, and have asked that question myself previously.There are doubtless those, such as kropotkin, who are much better informed.

Flamminis owned FGSport, which ran WSBK. Flamminis sold FGSport to Infront Sports and Media, FGSport rebranded Infront Motor Sports. Bridgepoint bought Infront Sports and Media from the owners.



Bridgepoint is a massive private investment fund. They care zero about motorcycle racing, only about returns. Bridgepoint will only intervene to prevent the two series from wasting money on lawyers suing each other, but that's as far as their involvement goes.

Kropotkin said:

Bridgepoint is a massive private investment fund. They care zero about motorcycle racing, only about returns. Bridgepoint will only intervene to prevent the two series from wasting money on lawyers suing each other, but that's as far as their involvement goes.

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I am sure you are right. My point concerned what they can do, not what they are likely to do.



It would seem to me that CVC were banned from owning both a breakfast cereal company and a milk company in not being allowed to own both motogp and F1, while bridgepoint are now being allowed to own 2 competing breakfast cereal companies. The potential exists for them to only produce one variety of cornflakes, notwithstanding that the 2 existing varieties will not be allowed to sue each other over ownership of the recipe for cornflakes.



I don't even think that combining WSBK and motogp would necessarily be bad, in fact it may be inevitable, just that the bureaucratic/regulatory attitude has been inconsistent.



Do the flamminis still have a role in running WSBK?

michaelm said:

Do the flamminis still have a role in running WSBK?

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The Flamminis still run the series, but they sold the majority stakeholding to Infront. But Paolo and Maurizio run the show.