- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
- 11,378
- Location
- Pomona NY
Help Support MotoGP Forum:
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
Maybe other way round? The cost doesnt seem so outrageous though. How much for just one advertisement during Superbowl?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
The exit of Siberia at PI was insane. No doubt with 990 would have been even better, but 800's not that bad. The coverage I watched later on TV seemed very poor by comparison, cameras were not in the best position to see what the riders actually do. They were running out of road onto the dirt at times and scaring the f$@# out of me. The other thing I want to know is how do these fancy electronics mapped out precisely to each corner deal with intermittent rain? As far as I could see the the most important electronic signals were the ones from the riders brain to the right wrist. When those are working properly they do tend to look smooth. Although Lorenzo's electronics appeared to malfunction on one corner, it did not look smooth.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,180
- Location
- New Orleans
The riders started to slow down, they know what the bikes can and can't handle, they also have a rain map. The part about the electronics that bothers me is that all they have to do now is be as precise as possible because lots of things are taken care of by the electronics. Launch control, wheelie control, throttle control during up and down shifts, throttle(to eliminate engine braking) and clutch control during braking for extremely smooth corner entry. The easier the bike is to ride the faster you can go. They rarely make mistakes because there aren't as many to make. The braking zones haven't become smaller because the brakes are great, it's because the electronics are taking care of that rear wheel.
I know it's the future but for me it's more exciting watching races where the riders have to do more and there are more mistakes. Keeping the rear wheel from spinning while accelerating is a small part of the electronics. It ruins the racing for me when I see two of the same bikes going into a corner and one has a bucking rear wheel while the other is smooth and planted, this is electronics.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
So they switch to the rain map for two corners, then back to dry for the next two? Or they slow down, and watch the field go past? I tell you Stoner was right on the edge in the patchy wet because Simo was chasing him, and he was not slowing down. It was Simo vs Stoner, not Simo electronic map vs Stoner map.
A quote from Wayne Rainey from the 500 days (MCN article):
"I wanted the engine to come on really smooth and gently take weight off the front tyre"
"Raineys big obsession was smoothing power delivery at the point where he first opened the throttle. This was the vital moment, get it right and you gain ten yards, get it wrong and you're flying 10 feet in the air."
Mick Doohan:
"Some people said I pushed the front too hard, but I just wanted to get through the corners quicker," Doohan adds. "I finally got the front tyres I wanted. Once the rear tyres got better the quickest way out of corners was to keep the bike in line. You'd only spin it up if the tyres were going away. When it comes down to it, sideways isn't quickest. A bit of oversteer helps if you're running out of racetrack, though for me the rear brake is the best tool to stop understeer."
Riders and teams have been working at smooth for a long time, this was from back in 1992. They would have to undo a lot of development to get it back to the crazy bike sliding days.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
More:
Alan Cathcart
"It took me awhile to come to terms with the surprisingly fierce response of the Honda's full ride-by-wire throttle (which replaces the previous so-called "dual control system" modular layout used on the V-five). The engine mapping Hayden opts for verges on explosive and is in complete contrast with the more controlled initial pickup of Stoner's Ducati I rode later."
Myth one. The V5 was an evil fire breathing monster, 800's are easier to ride.
Reality: the dual control system modular layout on the V5, whatever the hell that is, was a beautifully designed work of art. The electronic ride by wire throttle of the 800, which was supposed to ride itself, sucked, making the bike harder to ride. So going back to the old 990's would actually make it safer, the engines while powerful were easier to control, making for those nice slides without highsides. The 2012 fuel limited electronic dependent 1000's might end up more dangerous than ever?
Myth two, Stoner (Ducati) was not a good development rider, just rides the fire breathing monster and relies on electronics until he crashes. Reality, while the Ducati had high peak output, and the engine screamer design was not inherently rider friendly, Stoner but maybe more importantly his team & Gabarini worked hard on the same thing Rainey worked on all those years ago: controlled initial throttle pickup, making Stoner faster out of corners just like Rainey was, and enabling him to rely less on electronics, more on his brain to wrist traction control.
The more I read the more I think Stoners crew have a lot to do with it. It aint just electronics. And it explains why Rainey's, Doohan's, Stoner's and Rossi's of the world are champions, because they understand exactly what they needed to win.
Alan Cathcart
"It took me awhile to come to terms with the surprisingly fierce response of the Honda's full ride-by-wire throttle (which replaces the previous so-called "dual control system" modular layout used on the V-five). The engine mapping Hayden opts for verges on explosive and is in complete contrast with the more controlled initial pickup of Stoner's Ducati I rode later."
Myth one. The V5 was an evil fire breathing monster, 800's are easier to ride.
Reality: the dual control system modular layout on the V5, whatever the hell that is, was a beautifully designed work of art. The electronic ride by wire throttle of the 800, which was supposed to ride itself, sucked, making the bike harder to ride. So going back to the old 990's would actually make it safer, the engines while powerful were easier to control, making for those nice slides without highsides. The 2012 fuel limited electronic dependent 1000's might end up more dangerous than ever?
Myth two, Stoner (Ducati) was not a good development rider, just rides the fire breathing monster and relies on electronics until he crashes. Reality, while the Ducati had high peak output, and the engine screamer design was not inherently rider friendly, Stoner but maybe more importantly his team & Gabarini worked hard on the same thing Rainey worked on all those years ago: controlled initial throttle pickup, making Stoner faster out of corners just like Rainey was, and enabling him to rely less on electronics, more on his brain to wrist traction control.
The more I read the more I think Stoners crew have a lot to do with it. It aint just electronics. And it explains why Rainey's, Doohan's, Stoner's and Rossi's of the world are champions, because they understand exactly what they needed to win.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,180
- Location
- New Orleans
I don't care how you want to put it the bikes are heavily electronically controlled, I don't want to get into the rider thing with this thread. It's about the bikes. The 990s were great to watch, that is my opinion and not a statement I'm making on behalf of all race fans. I don't like bike racing when you need to put over 50 sensors on the thing to control it . If I was in control and I wanted to watch sliding bikes it would be as easy as cutting every wire that went to a sensor and not letting the bikes out of site until they went in for a technical inspection.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,180
- Location
- New Orleans
Keep on bringing your boy into this and I'll tell you again the electronics are much larger than just controlloing the spin of the rear wheel. Please go do youself a favor and go read Neil Spalings book. Again it's about the bikes not your golden boy. Why do Casey fans always find a way to bring him up, sheesh dude, what does me saying negative things about electronics give you the need to bring up Casey, besides the fact that him and every rider on the grid want the electronics to go. When did I ever say .... about Casey and his crew having anything to do with electronics.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
Damn, one reference to Stoner and crew and I'm kicked out of the thread. Cant talk about him in the other threads either. I cant help it, its a compulsive disorder. Oh well, off to read Neil Spalding........................whos he?
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,180
- Location
- New Orleans
http://www.amazon.co.uk/MotoGP-Technology-Neil-Spalding/dp/1844258343/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
That should be the link for the second edition.
This is an older tech insight into the electronics that were being used in 2008. Just don't show it to the person on here that was saying you had to use GPS for the bike to know it's position on the track and that it can't be done with a gyro. http://www.eetimes.com/design/automotive-design/4005855/Under-the-Hood-MotoGP-electronics-is-where-the-rubber-meets-the-road
You should for sure get Neil's book and check out his website.
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
- Joined
- May 4, 2011
- Messages
- 205
- Location
- California
I think I just heard Ezpeleta say he's giving 40M euros in MotoGP, so around $50-60M. Good estimate.
Went to the Yamaha tech presentation. They said their electronics are predictive, and cut power before slides or wheelies start. The ECU knows exactly where it is on the track, despite having no GPS, just works it out from wheel sensors and engine speeds.
Here's why the factories need go go, in a nutshell. This is all really cool .... to me, as a geek. As a race fan, it sucks bovine anus.
Here's why the factories need go go, in a nutshell. This is all really cool .... to me, as a geek. As a race fan, it sucks bovine anus.
Thanks for the link, Supreme. I don't speak Spanish, but I'll take your word for it.
The relationship between MotoGP and F1 makes me believe that both series operate similarly. I'm just using the F1 Concorde Agreement as it was leaked in '97 (IIRC?) and the recent leaks to Autosport magazine last year (can't remember the issue). That basic model affords me some degree of accuracy. The F1 leaks also make it appear that MotoGP's biggest "problem" is the cost of TV production. Maybe problem isn't the right word b/c media is a majority of the product, but it is probably a huge cost that they cannot cut.
MotoGP must grow revenues. In this case, reducing barriers to entry to improve the quality of the show and promote growth, may actually require cost-cutting. I believe this revelation, along with fear of Rossi's departure, is pushing Dorna to pursue extremely aggressive reforms. Honda make it sound as if eliminating prototype engines might be on Dorna's agenda. I hope not, but time will tell.
I used to hate electronics, but like you said earlier, if the bikes get more fuel, the electronics should play a much smaller role. The teams can use the additional fuel to mask the mechanical and electronic shortcomings of their machines. If expensive electronic devices are not a prerequisite, it might not be that big a deal if the MSMA use them.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
Why do you hate MotoGP so much? Maybe you don't understand it, or you should go watch something else.
Why do you hate MotoGP so much? Maybe you don't understand it, or you should go watch something else.
Let's not kid ourselves, the racing is ....... boring. Watching Casey Stoner sling that Honda about is one of the finest spectacles on the face of the planet, and the same is true of Lorenzo on the Yamaha or Rossi, when he was on the Yamaha (I don't know who Rossi lent his leathers to when he signed for Ducati, but he really needs to ask for them back and ride himself again), but they are sterile and sophisticated pleasures, removed the visceral thrill of bar-banging action. Having 8 (or however many it is this weekend) bikes on the grid doesn't help much either.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,180
- Location
- New Orleans
Could you tell me how the technical inspections in GP work. I've heard the bikes actually go back into their pitts after a race and the mechanics and engineers are allowed access before there is any inspection. I'm trying to figure out if this is true, if it is they should give the CRT bikes even more fuel.
I'm also not surprised that the bikes don't need GPS and that it was banned all of the sudden this year, there is no doubt in my mind that the rule was dropped after the big two figured out how to do it. Way to use the rules to keep you ahead of the competition, there really needs to be some kind of stability in the rules.
As much as I dislike the manufacturers, I don't understand why they have to depart for the sport to be fixed.
People can't stay in the Honda's wake b/c Stoner is on board, and the RC is the most fuel-efficient bike. If fuel capacity is increased, won't a lion's share of the "factory problem" go away?
P.S. Krop
I just read on your site that Ezpeleta wants a standard ECU and a rev limit for 2013. Is this in addition to the 81mm bore and the 4-cylinder rule or is the spec ECU and the rev limit meant to replace the 81mm, 4-cylinder formula?
If Ezpeleta goes spec ECU and rev limit with no bore rules or cylinder count rules, I'll be over the moon. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I also wonder if Ezpeleta is using divide-and-conquer (an Ecclestone strategy) on the MSMA. Ezpeleta said he is not signing a deal with the manufacturers as a collective any longer. I wonder if he is using Dorna's checkbook to organize certain manufacturers to alter the rulebook. Ferrari were the willing accomplice in divide and conquer, I wonder if another Italian company is playing spoiler this time around. All of the chips have been moved to the correct place (Rossi et al).
I just read on your site that Ezpeleta wants a standard ECU and a rev limit for 2013. Is this in addition to the 81mm bore and the 4-cylinder rule or is the spec ECU and the rev limit meant to replace the 81mm, 4-cylinder formula?
If Ezpeleta goes spec ECU and rev limit with no bore rules or cylinder count rules, I'll be over the moon. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I also wonder if Ezpeleta is using divide-and-conquer (an Ecclestone strategy) on the MSMA. Ezpeleta said he is not signing a deal with the manufacturers as a collective any longer. I wonder if he is using Dorna's checkbook to organize certain manufacturers to alter the rulebook. Ferrari were the willing accomplice in divide and conquer, I wonder if another Italian company is playing spoiler this time around. All of the chips have been moved to the correct place (Rossi et al).
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 2,228
- Location
- America
Suddenly WSBK sounds way more interesting and I would bet it is better racing. These ........ want to make bike racing like NASCAR with all their control this control that. .... YOU! The spirit of MOTO GP is, our company can build a better bike, and our rider is better than yours, NO, OUR company can....OH YEAH prove it!!! So now some dimwit will contest that the "frames" are still a prototype and that the motors are still this manufacturer and Blah blah blah.
HEY DORNA, all your "cost" saving efforts cost everyone more money, the 800's in your infinate wisdom suck ..... You come up with these "ideas" and tell us the racing etc etc is going to be better, well..it's not. DORNA, Ezy, I hope you really consider the brand of motoGP because everything you are doing, save for the 1000cc's coming back, is pretty .......
Oh and no matter how hard you try to ride the coattails of the real MOTOGP, these ........ bikes that are mere shadows of what a modern GP bike should be.
But fear not my purist friends. The bike makers will not fall in line. They would sooner let Motogp die in the hands of these educated morons than smear their company names with these glorified club racers and club bikes. Do you think Honda would love to hear the announcers stating that the frame their motor sits in junk chassis with barely enough money in the team to buy some toilet paper? HEll no. Problem is that Dorna is uninspired, they have lost the fire and passion of the sport that boasts the worlds best.....hmmmmmm the worlds best. Not that is just a whole other issue to isn't it? Are they really the worlds best riders on the best machines? I say no...Hey Dorna, get a clue fast.
HEY DORNA, all your "cost" saving efforts cost everyone more money, the 800's in your infinate wisdom suck ..... You come up with these "ideas" and tell us the racing etc etc is going to be better, well..it's not. DORNA, Ezy, I hope you really consider the brand of motoGP because everything you are doing, save for the 1000cc's coming back, is pretty .......
Oh and no matter how hard you try to ride the coattails of the real MOTOGP, these ........ bikes that are mere shadows of what a modern GP bike should be.
But fear not my purist friends. The bike makers will not fall in line. They would sooner let Motogp die in the hands of these educated morons than smear their company names with these glorified club racers and club bikes. Do you think Honda would love to hear the announcers stating that the frame their motor sits in junk chassis with barely enough money in the team to buy some toilet paper? HEll no. Problem is that Dorna is uninspired, they have lost the fire and passion of the sport that boasts the worlds best.....hmmmmmm the worlds best. Not that is just a whole other issue to isn't it? Are they really the worlds best riders on the best machines? I say no...Hey Dorna, get a clue fast.
