Stoner to be inducted as legend.

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chopperman, on 17 Oct 2013 - 15:02, said:

Where all entitled to our thoughts and suspicions. If we have such thoughts and suspicions we are also free to express them and open then up to debate for those interested enough. Please excuse the fact i'm not as highly educated as you or sun so my posts my be uninteresting to the more educated higher thinkers of this PUBLIC forum.

I say it as i see it. I may not be the most highly educated but i am very preceptive, something in my experience the highly educated lack !

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Where all entitled to our thoughts and suspicions. If we have such thoughts and suspicions we are also free to express them and open then up to debate for those interested enough. Please excuse the fact i'm not as highly educated as you or sun so my posts my be uninteresting to the more educated higher thinkers of this PUBLIC forum.


I say it as i see it. I may not be the most highly educated but i am very preceptive, something in my experience the highly educated lack !

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Gimp, haha, you've barely been here two days since last year, I doubt you've been tiresome on any topic. I'm sure you will eventually get there though, ha! The man wasn't talking about you, if anything he was referring to me on the topic of Dorna conspiracy (which btw, I'm now immune to and happy to repeat...repeatedly). Arrabi wasn't taking about 'school learnings' but rather 'education of the sport', for sure he wasn't referring to you ya poofta (unless hes on LSD) as he knows you know your GP ..... Agreeing on said knowledge is another thing all together. Also, he was making a reference to Sun's love affair with 'junior' category titles from another thread, and how the ignorant masses (of which you and I are not part of) should get educated on a bit of GP history. Got it?


Anyway, I thought Sun's post was good, but since it was a retort to mine, I'm not gonna nominate it for the Nobel Prize in literature just yet. I probably should heed them though, as I accept I'm not as knowledgable on the sport on account of me being relatively much younger than both of them (and being handicapped by living in the States). Then again, Arrabi once pointed to so some now forgotten post (in the MM torpedo of JLo thread) and said of it, it should be required reading for all PSers. I cant remember what it was about.

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Lots of weird things surround Stoner imo. Lactose intolerance striking all of a sudden causing him to bail out and go fishing. I say all of a sudden because one could assume he had eaten food with lactose all his life without a problem. If he did have a problem in the past he would have been aware and been diagnosed. I really cant see your body becoming so intolerant over night. 

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Ros has lactose intolerance Rog...at least we believe that to be the case. As a baby it was so bad we were immediately written a repeat prescription by the Doctor for soya milk 

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I don't normally subscribe to conspiracy theory's. Most conspiracy theorists always use the same tactic in trying to counter evidence once its submitted, rather than submit their own original evidence. Damn i even believe 9.11 was the arrabs (except pentagon) the yanks landed on the moon and even Oswald whacked Kennedy. Now i realize i could fall into this camp with my suspicions of stoner and to a small degree Dorna. It's hard to come up with original evidence when you're not actually in the inner circle.

 

There is a bit of a workplace joke when people phone in sick. They hardly ever use one symptom's if their lying, they almost always use 3.  Stoner's sickness was suspicious to me having mild lactose and gluten intolerance myself, something i have had all of my life. I'm not a doctor so will submit on this point. But its not the only point is it ? As i said it takes several points before i get suspicious.

Stoner leaving having only finished 3rd and behind his team mate must have been traumatic for stoner. Since 2007 he is not a person who likes to come up short. In fact i remember while at ducati Suppo telling the tv peeps not to go near the garage. When the tv peep asked why suppo smiles and said "you dont want to be around casey now, I dont want to be around casey now". Now this is a personal view but i can't see the Japanese HRC bosses being very tolerant of tantrums but that's speculation on my part. That season he fell out of love with the sport he retires. The reasons he gave to me sounded weak and some months later he even contradicted himself (leaving due to family).

Arrab mate you yourself have said Dani's ride was on the line to make way for Marquez, something i personally doubt. Maybe HRC would be willing to let him go but i think Puig being a respected Repsol man would have prevented this. .... HRC tried to get rid of Puig yet the miserable old git is still there due to Repsol. I doubt Dorna were keen on Dani loosing his HRC seat as he has a huge fan base and is very marketable in spain. If you dont believe me go to a spanish round.

Now the part that really set my bells ringing was when the rookie rule was scrapped or relaxed one time for Marquez. Was it scrapped or relaxed ? i guess we will find out when its tested again. Now when Ezy was asked on this he smirked looked shifty and said. "well some rules are meant to be broken". Where else would we except that as a plausible reason ?

Now stoner a man so broken up by a few fans booing him in the uk goes to race a Holden in the v8 series. Geez i bet all the Ford guys just love and cheer him now haha.

 

There are many more little points that have formed a pattern in my mind as to the back room dealing within our sport. Not the first time Dorna have secured seats for riders either directly or indirectly. Corruption of one form or another is present in all big money sports. I bet if i was talking about FIFA or Olympics here you would not even raise an eyebrow.

Did stoner leave or was he pushed ? paid off or life made so intolerable he said .... it. He looked happy and dandy at the end of 2011, well as happy as he ever is. Within one more year he has gone, just as a rule is broken.

 

Reader's of this can agree or disagree but if you look at the facts you can see why some are questioning the validity of the series.

 

Anyway i will give it a rest now. I have my thoughts and other have contradictory thought and thats the way it should be. I doubt i will follow the sport much next year other than look at the results Ive followed the sport since 92 other than cheering for Sheene as a kid with my dad. Due to the now pay per view i have been priced out i'm afraid £15 per month on top of what i already pay aint going to happen. Part of the reason i came back was to enjoy the last couple of races with you guys.

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My son had it - only one of our children to get it - as an infant. Explosive diarrhea and distended abdomen, along with the eternal wailing of the colicy infant had me reaching for the duct tape and socks. Luckily our pediatrician also prescribed soy milk and panic over!


 


He was mostly over it by 2 years, by then he was eating cheese and yoghurt. He will still get a bit ...... at age 24 if he binges on dairy.

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I take your point that retiring apparently at the top of his game whilst the incumbent number one rider for HRC, of which most riders can only dream, is very unusual in terms of GP bike racing both recently and historically, and it is not unreasonable for you to speculate concerning this, with such speculation being our raison d'etre on here anyway.

 

From my point of view whilst sounding undramatic initially the lactose intolerance made total sense, and from my admittedly biased perspective the whole thing hung together medically. He saw some heavy hitting doctors back here some of whom I know personally, and information was released at the time concerning the exercise physiology testing he had at the the Australian institute of Sport where he had quite poor exercise tolerance  despite being previously able to keep up with comeitive cyclists, and was found to have whole body sodium deficiency, which I can see as a reasonable consequence of longterm undiagnosed lactose intolerance and resulting poor diet. I have no experience of lactose intolerance since it is usually a paediatric diagnosis, but it is definitely reported to sometimes be adult in onset in Caucasians. I bow to your personal experience, but I also have a family  member who was severely allergic to milk protein to the point of anaphyllaxis rather than just deficient in the lactase enzyme, and can tell you from her experience that milk is ubiquitous in western foodstuff. I am sure the stress of riding a bike in the Ducati  that was basically trying to kill him most of the time, as Valentino can testify, at the same time didn't help.

 

David Emmett who has talked to Stoner one on one quite a lot  (he is apparently quite different in this circumstance) says he was just sick of the whole thing. I can see this as being correct, he is in many ways like the tennis prodigies of days of yore except for not being mistreated by his parents afaik (you would doubtless see similarities in his general behaviour as well) with his whole family's future livelihood dependent on him from a young age, given that his family literally bet the farm on him when he was 14 or 15. He also I think formed a conclusion that Dorna were against him after they changed the rules a second time after a championship win by him; this may have been coincidental as I have said, but just because you are paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't after you, and I can see how he might have drawn such a conclusion. His prospective fatherhood imo may also have been influential, although he has denied this himself.

 
He was actually leading the championship when he announced his retirement btw, so I don't think it was concern about inability to compete with Dani Pedrosa which drove his retirement.  In terms of his mental toughness he is obviously not as tough as some, Valentino Rossi and Mick Doohan particularly, or  Jorge lorenzo, but he was tough enough to ride 2 perfect seasons to win 2 premier class championships, including one on a Ducati, which is plenty tough by most standards.

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Absolutely, and it pays to nurture a healthy degree of sceptical reserve. I know you personally and do respect your instinct, your insight and in particular your knowledge which as you say you can't possibly bluff or blag when you step out from behind the keyboard. My praise of Sun's post is less to do with his obvious erudition more his levelled and informed appraisal of the facts. We are at liberty to bandy about all manner of speculative theory, this is after all a forum, a platform for as you say discourse and debate. Where I disagree wholeheartedly with you is firstly the assertion that your posts are not as interesting as others..they most certainly are - and always have been. Secondly, saying things as you see them is not necessarily a hallmark of perception - (which isn't infallible and is often fallacious), more a subjectively tainted viewpoint in the absence of true impartiality. Perception is a relative concept - some of the most perceptive and visionary people I have met in my life have in fact been highly educated Rog, others have not...their tunnel vision and trammelled thought processes restricted and stymied by the limited view from atop of their ivory towers. In my experience however, either way it is impossible to generalise. I have at the other end of the spectrum witnessed astonishing and similarly towering levels of ignorance amongst some closed minded individuals who's only source of information is the pages of a red top daily and Heat Magazine.


 


Neither is a view of Stoner's illness or departure from the series wholly neutral - particularly when it is primarily buttressed by a long standing dislike of his character and personality. I know a little about CFS and much more about dietary intolerances - from experience and also those practitioners who have dedicated their lives to educating themselves through research and specialist consultancy. As perceptive as you may be, let me assure and indeed correct you, such illnesses can strike very quickly, without warning and be precipitated by multitude of factors.


 


This entire forum is conditioned and treated by a Rashomon effect. Ultimately truth is I believe absolute, but as human beings, a relative concept. Thus you are not alone in your contention that you say things as you see them. You are also not alone in regarding yourself as perceptive but perceptions differ hence as you say the need for debate. 


 


Occasionally a definitive post is made which surpasses the need for further comment. I would also add that Jumkie, to whom Sun was replying is one of the most well read and informed people it has ever been my pleasure to meet. Funnily enough, I can also attest to his education...and Powerslide aside, his formidable powers of perception.

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I don't normally subscribe to conspiracy theory's. Most conspiracy theorists always use the same tactic in trying to counter evidence once its submitted, rather than submit their own original evidence. Damn i even believe 9.11 was the arrabs (except pentagon) the yanks landed on the moon and even Oswald whacked Kennedy. Now i realize i could fall into this camp with my suspicions of stoner and to a small degree Dorna. It's hard to come up with original evidence when you're not actually in the inner circle.


 


There is a bit of a workplace joke when people phone in sick. They hardly ever use one symptom's if their lying, they almost always use 3.  Stoner's sickness was suspicious to me having mild lactose and gluten intolerance myself, something i have had all of my life. I'm not a doctor so will submit on this point. But its not the only point is it ? As i said it takes several points before i get suspicious.


Stoner leaving having only finished 3rd and behind his team mate must have been traumatic for stoner. Since 2007 he is not a person who likes to come up short. In fact i remember while at ducati Suppo telling the tv peeps not to go near the garage. When the tv peep asked why suppo smiles and said "you dont want to be around casey now, I dont want to be around casey now". Now this is a personal view but i can't see the Japanese HRC bosses being very tolerant of tantrums but that's speculation on my part. That season he fell out of love with the sport he retires. The reasons he gave to me sounded weak and some months later he even contradicted himself (leaving due to family).


Arrab mate you yourself have said Dani's ride was on the line to make way for Marquez, something i personally doubt. Maybe HRC would be willing to let him go but i think Puig being a respected Repsol man would have prevented this. .... HRC tried to get rid of Puig yet the miserable old git is still there due to Repsol. I doubt Dorna were keen on Dani loosing his HRC seat as he has a huge fan base and is very marketable in spain. If you dont believe me go to a spanish round.


Now the part that really set my bells ringing was when the rookie rule was scrapped or relaxed one time for Marquez. Was it scrapped or relaxed ? i guess we will find out when its tested again. Now when Ezy was asked on this he smirked looked shifty and said. "well some rules are meant to be broken". Where else would we except that as a plausible reason ?


Now stoner a man so broken up by a few fans booing him in the uk goes to race a Holden in the v8 series. Geez i bet all the Ford guys just love and cheer him now haha.


 


There are many more little points that have formed a pattern in my mind as to the back room dealing within our sport. Not the first time Dorna have secured seats for riders either directly or indirectly. Corruption of one form or another is present in all big money sports. I bet if i was talking about FIFA or Olympics here you would not even raise an eyebrow.


Did stoner leave or was he pushed ? paid off or life made so intolerable he said .... it. He looked happy and dandy at the end of 2011, well as happy as he ever is. Within one more year he has gone, just as a rule is broken.


 


Reader's of this can agree or disagree but if you look at the facts you can see why some are questioning the validity of the series.


 


Anyway i will give it a rest now. I have my thoughts and other have contradictory thought and thats the way it should be. I doubt i will follow the sport much next year other than look at the results Ive followed the sport since 92 other than cheering for Sheene as a kid with my dad. Due to the now pay per view i have been priced out i'm afraid £15 per month on top of what i already pay aint going to happen. Part of the reason i came back was to enjoy the last couple of races with you guys.

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A well argued response, this is why this forum has missed you.


 


I think as Michael alluded to, Casey was thoroughly disenchanted with the whole circus and was sick of being in the ring. When HRC want something, or someone, they tend to move mountains to get it...(not simply in metaphorical terms...look at the construction of Motegi). Had Stoner elected to stay - yeah, I'm certain it would have been a case of 'come in No.26 your time is up', for Dani - irrespective of his popularity in Spain. The fact that HRC were intent on putting Casey on the bike at Philip Island to Wild Card rather flies in the face of him being paid off as Spanish/Repsol conspiracy, which would have unquesitionably taken points off both Marquez and Pedrosa. The only thing standing in the way of Casey Stoner and a full facotry Honda is Casey Stoner.


 


My issue has always been this. The influence exerted by HRC is far more damaging to the sport than any vested Spanish interests and a few stickers deployed by (in relative terms) a tin pot petrochemical company regardless how massive a sponsor they are. HRC are far more entrenched and in the long term less transient in this championship than any sponsor.


 


We live in a 'cut and paste' society - people take snippets of information which they assemble via a collage of confirmation bias and think they have arrived at the big picture. On the subject of education - far from a formal or classical schooling, relaitvely speaking as Westerners we live in a democracy and are fully at liberty to read widely and educate and inform ourselves - and it is those that are widely read and additionally have the balancing benefit of wisdom and experience (irrespective of age) that I regard as being educated. My experience of truly educated people is that they accept they know nothing...or are always learning and thus have enquiring minds. Uneducated people - and remember I am not framing this in terms of a formal education - tend to think they know it all.


 


Regarding conspiracy theories, the moon landings are indeed a great example. What irritates me so much about its perpetrators is that they accuse those in opposition as being naive, gullible and dumb and taking things at face value whilst overlooking that the basis of scientific fact - which is available to anyone that can be bothered to do their homework - defeats their claims every time, which is why NASA divert very little energy to disproving their allegations of a hoax. the science or rather the conspiracy theorists lack of comprehension of this, speaks for itself.


 


Why spend time learning, reading, amassing experiences in life to develop an independent thought process when you can tap into the artificial world of the web? Afterall, it must be true - cuz the internet sez so.

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Dani didn't get re-signed until after Stoner had announced his retirement.

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A point that has been made on many occasions.


 


The plan was to pit Marquez against Stoner. HRC relish stoking competition within the team - which is why I called the supposed Marquez cautioning prior to Catalunya as ......... When Casey retired the impetus was behind Marquez to win the championship in his rookie year.


 


As important as Puig has been over the years in scouting and feeding new talent into the series, as affiliated with Repsol as he may be, the appointment <u>BY HRC</u> of Suppo said it all to me. Puig is a more peripheral figure thses days - you overestimate his influence Rog. And back on the subject of sponsorship, there is possibly no one better than Livio Suppo in the paddock at utilising connections and networking new business development. On the contrary, keep watching if you can. I would argue that the arrival of Suppo almost made Puig superfluous and any marginal sway with HRC largely as redundant as Pedrosa almost became. You want conspiracy and back room corruption? forget Repsol, look instead at the people from HRC scurrying around in the corridors of Madrid - (or more pertinently Dorna HQ in Tokyo), or pervading the MSMA. The rookie rule abolished by Dorna/Repsol in favour of an all Spanish team and the prospect of a winning Spaniard? Think more abolished by HRC and the prospect of a winning RCV213v. Ultimately, that's their chief concern - their marketing strategy imo is less about the national popularity of a rider and more about the global popularity of the brand - (and Ducati are exactly the same) - which is precisely why Rossi ...... off for 2004.  Sure, Hayden was handy to both marques in making valuable inroads into the U.S. market as our cynical friend Migs is fond of reminding us. But as Jum posted recently, this is marginal and American interest in racing miniscule at best, even amongst sportsbike riders and track day afficionados. Although as I have always said, it was no coincidence that Hugh Laurie rode a Repsol Honda at the same time in his portrayal as 'House' - a big hit on US T.V. Dani may be huge in Spain, but to HRC he and his marlketing appeal are dispensible - the RCV is not.


 


If you can ride the Honda fastest, if you can win on it, then HRC will always have a seat reserved for you which is why Honda were desperate to prise Casey out of retirement and onto the RCV this weekend...because he would have won - and that's all it's about to them. They couldn't give a rats arse about the rider getting credit it's all about the machinery - but they covet those that can make that machinery go the quickest.


 


I have repeated this anecdote many times, but when Valentino announced his departure for Yamaha in 2003 HRC responded by saying "we will build a bike to destroy Rossi" - a plan that ultimately and resoundingly backfired like a misfiring aprilia cube when they eventually manipulated the formula around Dani and rolled out the Pedrocycle in 2008. When further pressed about riders and asked who ideally they would like to ride their motorcylce Nakajima's response? -"We choose Freddie" - yeah that's right...Freddie, another 'quitter'. But he was also 'Fast' Freddie remember? He made their motorcycles go fast - very fast - and that is precisely the reason why, contrary to being paid off under pressure from a Spanish petroleum sponsor, Stoner was purportedly offered the highest sum in the history of this sport to ride their motorcycle. Quitting? Actually, I'd call that integrity. It's also precisely the reason that they enforced a reversal of the rookie rule to get Marquez on their premier product as quickly as possible - because like Casey, they know he's faster than the rest when it comes to riding a Honda racing motorcycle.


 


All this Spanish conspiracy stuff confuses the unwary and the emotional who then threaten boycotts in favour of the exorbitantly priced WSBk - which ha! -  is also owned by Dorna. I agree, no sport is devoid of vested national intersts and corruption - within racing and the UK, look no further than the dubious history of the BARC and Motorsport Vision. It would be no different - if not worse under British ownership.


 


Had the Spaniards not come in for the sport two decades ago, I shudder to think what state it would be in now.

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