Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
If they deliberately prop. ...... why am i wasting my time with you..... god you are a ........ :rolleyes;
If they deliberately prop. ...... why am i wasting my time with you..... god you are a ........ :rolleyes;
Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
Legitimacy probably depends on who is making the move, who is receiving the move and where the fans sit in terms of the fence of those involved.
From memory, CS' only issue was a couple of moves 'over the back of the circuit' where he felt that he was ridden to the edge of the track (a hard racing move - reference the Doohan/Criville video from Eastern Creek) but he did not labour the point so much although obviously post-race he was fired up about it (unfortunately so IMO as it detracted a lot). That said, he took full blame for the fall with the only talk of a brake check being a journalist trying to get a rise out of CS (He responded 'dont know, ask him' and people ran with it).
Now, that said and done I am somewhat different to many you will debate this with (and will cop plenty of rebuttal from around the traps) but for mine, that was one of Rossi's best races against the 'young turks'. Rossi was sublime and used race craft, mastery and every weapon at his disposal to upset the concentration and race of Stoner, and he did it extremely well which I feel led a lot to Stoner's frustrations.
IMO again but Laguna 2008 should go down as a lesson from an old master and whilst it was hard racing, nothing I saw on TV (watched it at the time and replays since, although not for a few years) overstepped acceptable racing.
Yes CS may feel otherwise and as he was there I happily accept his view but from this armchair spectator's view, it was a race that we so often crave as two hard heads went hammer and tong and yet sadly we look at negatives rather than the spectacle that it was.
FFS, Stoner fell, remounted and did not drop a place such was the mastery of both riders involved ......... awesome.
I will use this another time (not you, but may well be from that side of the fence
)Sure, I think Stoner's main issue was with being nearly forced off the track while negotiating a corner on the racing line right on the edge of the track, as he was in the immediate lead-up to the Corkscrew incident, which is why Rossi was (vaguely) in front going into said Corkscrew.Legitimacy probably depends on who is making the move, who is receiving the move and where the fans sit in terms of the fence of those involved.
From memory, CS' only issue was a couple of moves 'over the back of the circuit' where he felt that he was ridden to the edge of the track (a hard racing move - reference the Doohan/Criville video from Eastern Creek) but he did not labour the point so much although obviously post-race he was fired up about it (unfortunately so IMO as it detracted a lot). That said, he took full blame for the fall with the only talk of a brake check being a journalist trying to get a rise out of CS (He responded 'dont know, ask him' and people ran with it).
Now, that said and done I am somewhat different to many you will debate this with (and will cop plenty of rebuttal from around the traps) but for mine, that was one of Rossi's best races against the 'young turks'. Rossi was sublime and used race craft, mastery and every weapon at his disposal to upset the concentration and race of Stoner, and he did it extremely well which I feel led a lot to Stoner's frustrations.
IMO again but Laguna 2008 should go down as a lesson from an old master and whilst it was hard racing, nothing I saw on TV (watched it at the time and replays since, although not for a few years) overstepped acceptable racing.
Yes CS may feel otherwise and as he was there I happily accept his view but from this armchair spectator's view, it was a race that we so often crave as two hard heads went hammer and tong and yet sadly we look at negatives rather than the spectacle that it was.
FFS, Stoner fell, remounted and did not drop a place such was the mastery of both riders involved ......... awesome.
I will use this another time (not you, but may well be from that side of the fence
I suspect he was also miffed about nearly being taken out through no error of his own in the actual Corkscrew incident, particularly after Rossi more or less said "haha, I beat you" as they got off their bikes after the race, but couldn't say so after the widespread acclaim Rossi received for the Corkscrew move.
How much acclaim do you think Stoner would have received had their situations been reversed, and he had gone into the Corkscrew too hot, lost the bike and slewed across the front of Rossi, semi-saved his bike by going off-track, then made an uncontrolled re-entry to the track which required his opponent who was in full control of his bike negotiating the corner on the racing line to rapidly decamp to the other side of the track to avoid being torpedoed amidships at high speed? Perhaps the rules were different then, but subsequent rulings in both MM's later re-creation of the Corkscrew incident with Rossi and the Assen 2015 Rossi/MM last lap contretemps would seem to indicate a rider maintaining position by leaving the track when his opponent didn't wouldn't be allowed to keep the position saved/gained.
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Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Its not a debate.
You just ignore all of the evidence. So wheres the debate.
Thats just fooling yourself. So waste your own time and life.
Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Blocking has never been an accepted as a legitimate racing tactic for a long time. The reason there are rules against the sort of moves that are intended to block is because of safety reasons. I already watched Michael Schumacher run Mika Hakkinen almost off the track at 190+mph at Spa in 2000 because he knew Hakkinen was the faster driver at that stage in the race. Was very dangerous and very very ....... stupid. Rossi's moves at Laguna 08 were ill-advised and in particular that out of control move at the Corkscrew could have ended very badly for both riders.
What arguments do you have other than the call of "conspiracy theory", btw?
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Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
That's in F1 not moto GP, riders 'close the door' which to all intents and purposes is blocking, or block passes , overtaking then putting your bike where the guy behind wants to be.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
So Dani, would you mind telling me which of the two has the racers more exposed to injury than the other?
I have some sympathy with that view in regard to the difference between car and bike racing.
However in neither sport are you usually allowed, nor should be allowed, to maintain position by leaving the track or cutting a chicane etc, unless in modern F1 for instance you happen to be named Lewis Hamilton. Where modern MotoGP is similar to F1 is that the rules also seem to be different depending on the identity of the rider/competitor, conspiracy theory though you may conveniently choose to call this.
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Possibly because he crashes into other drivers more than most. I have little residual interest in F1, but he did win the Monaco GP last year by cutting a chicane without penalty, while several other drivers were penalised for same in that race.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Add Max Verstappen to that list. He was given far more leeway for his dangerous driving last season than anyone else.
At any rate, my point still stands, blocking is dangerous and a chickenshit tactic.
In particular my view on Laguna 2008 has hardened due to Rossi's other dangerous riding antics. I don't view Laguna as anything other than a piece of evidence in a long series of dangerous riding maneuvers that any objective observer of the sport would recognize...Sepang 2015 being the culmination of every bit of dangerous riding he engaged in over the years without so much as a reprimand.
Those who would defend his moves at Laguna 2008 in my opinion are more often than not, the same who cheered/egged on Marco Simoncelli through his countless dangerous riding maneuvers including the ill-advised overtake attempt on Dani Pedrosa at Le Mans. Hence my strong objections to Simoncelli being held up as any sort of legend. If anything, Simoncelli should be held up as an example of the risks of engaging in stupid and outright dangerous riding for all prospective riders in the sport.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Dani - it's not as simplistic as you think. The move in the corkscrew was really an over-the-top bit of reckless endangerment that cannot in all good conscience be pushed aside as high-spirited risk-taking. Seeing it on video doesn't really tell the tale. Some of us, myself included, have actually been there at LS. Were you to see just how steep a drop there is all along the verge at the corkscrew - you would really appreciate just how assholic Rossi's move was. Valeban types would have us believe Rossi's tactics were "heroic" - but in truth - that was an act of dull-witted desperation worthy of Simoncelli. Trading paint is one thing, but really, this was not clean or sportsmanlike racing on Rossi's part. Ross didn't win through racecraft. His exiting unscathed from that excursion was sheer dumb luck.
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To be fair he has been in general over a very long career a notably safe rider by most standards, far more than MM was in his early career. When pushed he has made dirty moves and gotten away with them however, Jerez 2005 and to a lesser extent (in terms of getting away with it) Sepang 2015 in particular. The Laguna Seca 2008 move wasn't a deliberate planned move, but I suspect Kesh's assessment of it is fairly accurate.
The recently sainted David Emmett wrote a piece about Sepang 2015 at the time in which he said both Rossi and MM had been given golden boy status and been allowed to get away with things because of their status. This was undoubtedly true imo, MM should have been suspended for several races for the Willairot incident in my view. Only problem is that MM raced in a legal/legitimate fashion for position in the race concerned, whatever anyone cares to speculate in regard to his motives, and Rossi did not.
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Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
My objection with Rossi is a lot of his questionable riding was calculated rather than being deliberately ignorant along the lines of Simoncelli. Simoncelli's fault was he never seemed to be fully aware of the risk he was putting on himself, as well as every other rider who had to be on the track with him. Rossi on the other hand is certainly aware of the risks, and it'd be a disservice to paint him as being ignorant/stupid/..... as he is anything but...which makes it perhaps even worse on some level as it's the end result of a conscious thought processing pattern, which leads it to being done of malicious intent.
You'll get no argument from me regarding MM's early career. I still feel it was egregious that he was not given a multi-race ban for the Willairot incident, and that doesn't get into his other on-track incidents in the premier class when he narrowly missed torpedoing a number of riders in FP sessions due to only what I can chalk up as sheer luck.
I'd venture a guess at this point that whatever 'golden boy' status MM had prior to Sepang 2015 is long gone now. So Emmett's assessment at that time remains a moot point. The combination of all of those DNF's in 2015 and the Sepang incident changed him as a rider for the most part. Not that he doesn't still have certain tendencies, but I don't get the same feeling I had when he was out on track in 2015 and earlier that he might take someone else out through some stupid move.
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
I don't know how many times this has been done to death.
There were no rules broken, no position illegally gained, both riders late on the brakes and wide. Happens in many corners in truth.
Joined Jun 2016
642 Posts | 244+
Santa Cruz, Cal
I am not quite sure how this got to Laguna and passing in turn 8b, but I will tell you that the original Rossi pass and subsequent Marquez pass were illegal. And I would have protested both of them.
Stoner scared the hell out of me at the time because he stayed on the throttle underneath Rossi. There is no room for error at that point. Below is a picture of me (8) at Laguna Seca. It's my home track.
From the current rules:
1.21.3
Stoner scared the hell out of me at the time because he stayed on the throttle underneath Rossi. There is no room for error at that point. Below is a picture of me (8) at Laguna Seca. It's my home track.
From the current rules:
1.21.3
