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Nicky Hayden, MotoGP Legend

JPSLotus said:
You must have an equation in mind on how many ........ titles equals one legitimate title. Let us know what you think the appropriate number is before ........ turns into legitimate. That will be some rather fine alchemy to see, and if you can make it work, would you be willing to turn your attention to converting other materials into gold? I think there's a more substantial benefit to the latter.

Nicky is more deserving of LEGEND status than either Simoncelli or Kato. In particular the former who while certainly may have been an explosive rider, was also a liability to every other rider on the grid during his couple of years in the premier class. I don't see how giving him the title of MotoGP Legend was even remotely appropriate since 1) he never won a single grand prix at that level and 2) he was as dangerous a rider out there as ever has been in recent memory. All that was being honored was future potential which has no basis in reality considering we can wax philosophically all we want about what he may or may not have done. He never achieved any of that potential so it's a moot point. The same applies with Daijiro Kato. He may have gone on to be a world champion, but he also may have never achieved any of those assumed lofty expectations. We'll never know either way on both riders and object to their inclusion.
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If you want to put it like that, then 75% of the people in the hall of fame shouldn't be there. IMO tops there are maybe 6 or 7 who are worthy of it and no I won't give names, everyone knows who they are.
 
Theo said:
If you want to put it like that, then 75% of the people in the hall of fame shouldn't be there. IMO tops there are maybe 6 or 7 who are worthy of it and no I won't give names, everyone knows who they are.
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motogp.com · MotoGP Legends

I think 75% is a wild overestimation of how many shouldn't be there IMO. There's 24 on that list, and 75% not being worthy would take it down to 6 total.
 
Jumkie said:
How many ........ titles is worth one legitimate title?

Before(well too late) ya'll go discrediting the accolade of Legend, fully deserved for Nicky Hayden, consider the 2006 season with a bit of analysis.

And those of you who don't think he's deserving, eat .... and die a long protracted slow horrible death. Hopefully your sterile, so as not to contaminate the world.
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Not gonna go there Jums, thus why I apologised for my thoughts up front.

I will simply say that please also remember that I do not include Stoner as deserving either (from when he was inducted).

As for the 'eat ....' comments, well you haven't tasted my wife's cooking ...............


JPSLotus said:
You must have an equation in mind on how many ........ titles equals one legitimate title. Let us know what you think the appropriate number is before ........ turns into legitimate. That will be some rather fine alchemy to see, and if you can make it work, would you be willing to turn your attention to converting other materials into gold? I think there's a more substantial benefit to the latter.

Nicky is more deserving of LEGEND status than either Simoncelli or Kato. In particular the former who while certainly may have been an explosive rider, was also a liability to every other rider on the grid during his couple of years in the premier class. I don't see how giving him the title of MotoGP Legend was even remotely appropriate since 1) he never won a single grand prix at that level and 2) he was as dangerous a rider out there as ever has been in recent memory. All that was being honored was future potential which has no basis in reality considering we can wax philosophically all we want about what he may or may not have done. He never achieved any of that potential so it's a moot point. The same applies with Daijiro Kato. He may have gone on to be a world champion, but he also may have never achieved any of those assumed lofty expectations. We'll never know either way on both riders and object to their inclusion.
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Agreed and said so at the time but got a little shouted down.

IMO, death does not make one a legend (there are exceptions - Saarinen) just as unfulfilled promise does not make one a legend.

I stated some time back that awarding legend status to some will besmirch it for those truly deserving who whilst I am admittedly bias were infinitely times more legendary through their careers (Rainey, Doohan, Lawson,Spencer who should be there on the achievement alone).

It is however to take Jums point an interesting discussion as for some, every person who rides GP is a legend and should be feted as such, every champion a legend, every title winner a legend and so forth.
 
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Gaz said:
Not gonna go there Jums, thus why I apologised for my thoughts up front.

I will simply say that please also remember that I do not include Stoner as deserving either (from when he was inducted).

As for the 'eat ....' comments, well you haven't tasted my wife's cooking ...............




Agreed and said so at the time but got a little shouted down.

IMO, death does not make one a legend (there are exceptions - Saarinen) just as unfulfilled promise does not make one a legend.

I stated some time back that awarding legend status to some will besmirch it for those truly deserving who whilst I am admittedly bias were infinitely times more legendary through their careers (Rainey, Doohan, Lawson,Spencer who should be there on the achievement alone).

It is however to take Jums point an interesting discussion as for some, every person who rides GP is a legend and should be feted as such, every champion a legend, every title winner a legend and so forth.
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Clarification requested: You don't think Stoner is deserving of Legend status? Or you once thought that?

Death can fuel the legend far more than whatever legend existed in life if the racer is cut down in the middle of their career. Senna was the most recent example that this would apply to as he became bigger in death than he was in life. But the bargain that is struck in those circumstances to elevate the man to something more, is the inevitable white-washing and rationalization of past deeds in various instances. Others that come to mind who were certainly worthy of the adulation they were accorded in death were Gilles Villeneuve, Pedro Rodriguez, and Jo Siffert. The latter two deserved every bit of legend they were accorded in death.

The 4 riders you mention are probably the gold standard for Legend status along with Mike Hailwood and Barry Sheene. I wish we had a current day rivalry that came close to matching Rainey/Schwantz. That though is why Simoncelli and Kato have no place being named legends because they did not come close to achieving or redefining the sport the way those 6 other riders did. Unfulfilled promise is just that - unfulfilled. You're ultimately remembered for what you did, not what you might have done.
 
Gaz said:
Not gonna go there Jums, thus why I apologised for my thoughts up front.

I will simply say that please also remember that I do not include Stoner as deserving either (from when he was inducted).

As for the 'eat ....' comments, well you haven't tasted my wife's cooking ...............




Agreed and said so at the time but got a little shouted down.

IMO, death does not make one a legend (there are exceptions - Saarinen) just as unfulfilled promise does not make one a legend.

I stated some time back that awarding legend status to some will besmirch it for those truly deserving who whilst I am admittedly bias were infinitely times more legendary through their careers (Rainey, Doohan, Lawson,Spencer who should be there on the achievement alone).

It is however to take Jums point an interesting discussion as for some, every person who rides GP is a legend and should be feted as such, every champion a legend, every title winner a legend and so forth.
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Hayden and Stoner's immediate elevation is understandable if a criteria for entry is being unfairly derided by the Valeban despite world championships during your actual motogp career, an unlikely hypothesis admittedly given this would require admission by Dorna of the false narrative they have promoted/with which they have co-operated for well over a decade.

I have seen discussion of how "legend" status is decided but can't recall the details, but Dorna, a group of merchant bankers and venture capitalists who have imo basically hi-jacked the sport (with the co-operation of FIM admittedly) deciding or overseeing who is a legend of a sport with such a rich tradition including several decades which don't involve them doesn't sit well with me.

I am inclined to take Birdman's approach and look for the money where Dorna is concerned, in which case elevating American or Australian riders at a time when riders from these markets are not having much success to maintain interest perhaps help ratings makes sense. I will say Dorna do try fairly hard to maintain interest in and promote the sport as an international one.
 
Jumkie said:
How many ........ titles is worth one legitimate title?

Before(well too late) ya'll go discrediting the accolade of Legend, fully deserved for Nicky Hayden, consider the 2006 season with a bit of analysis.

And those of you who don't think he's deserving, eat .... and die a long protracted slow horrible death. Hopefully your sterile, so as not to contaminate the world.
Click to expand...

A great case can be made for both the KRJR and Hayden titles being far from routine/"ordinary", 2000 being a win on a Suzuki and the last such win at that, and Nicky being the last at this time in that run of American riders, several unequivocally great, who contributed so much to the sport over a period of nearly 3 decades, with Nicky's title one of the most hotly contested ever and also with pretty much the most equality as far as equipment goes imo ever. It was also against the odds, with lukewarm support from his team and required him to overcome an active act of sabotage by his team-mate, and brought to an end a run of 5 title wins by an undoubted legend of the sport whom he beat fair and square. That he didn't otherwise reach those heights is true, but he was great that year, and would also get my vote as one of the most high character and sporting riders ever.

It is nice for the families of Kato and Simoncelli for them to be recognised, and there were at least glimpses of greatness with Kato, if not Simoncelli so much imo.
 
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JPSLotus said:
Clarification requested: You don't think Stoner is deserving of Legend status? Or you once thought that?
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Said at the time.

For me, 3 titles gives automatic qualification ans thus CS misses out.

He is a legend of Australian motorcycle racing but for me, not of the world variety.

As mentioned earlier, I am a harsh ....... and to me, he is not the equal of (as example) Rainey who I genuinely rate higher.

It is not a popular thought but one I have always had and whilst I fully understand the alternate view points, I doubt that mine will ever change.

Aussie legend, yes.



JPSLotus said:
Death can fuel the legend far more than whatever legend existed in life if the racer is cut down in the middle of their career. Senna was the most recent example that this would apply to as he became bigger in death than he was in life. But the bargain that is struck in those circumstances to elevate the man to something more, is the inevitable white-washing and rationalization of past deeds in various instances. Others that come to mind who were certainly worthy of the adulation they were accorded in death were Gilles Villeneuve, Pedro Rodriguez, and Jo Siffert. The latter two deserved every bit of legend they were accorded in death.

The 4 riders you mention are probably the gold standard for Legend status along with Mike Hailwood and Barry Sheene. I wish we had a current day rivalry that came close to matching Rainey/Schwantz. That though is why Simoncelli and Kato have no place being named legends because they did not come close to achieving or redefining the sport the way those 6 other riders did. Unfulfilled promise is just that - unfulfilled. You're ultimately remembered for what you did, not what you might have done.
Click to expand...

Not going to discuss the death side to much as for some it is upsetting so do not wish to bring it back to the surface for those people (I am not one)

With regards to the highlighted however, I do wonder if we may be on the cusp of just such a rivalry with MM/MV?
 
Gaz said:
........
I stated some time back that awarding legend status to some will besmirch it for those truly deserving who whilst I am admittedly bias were infinitely times more legendary through their careers (Rainey, Doohan, Lawson,Spencer who should be there on the achievement alone)..........
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I sure as hell hope this is not a full list, because it misses some pretty important people in motorcycle racing history.
Gaz said:
For me, 3 titles gives automatic qualification ans thus CS misses out.
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But, you have someone with less than three titles in your previous post.

While I can wave my American flag with the best of them, I am not happy about several people being included in the group of "legends" including Hayden. And I will put my vote in for Stoner long before a half dozen people that are on the legends list, including some that I have met.
 
Iamapony said:
I sure as hell hope this is not a full list, because it misses some pretty important people in motorcycle racing history.
Click to expand...

Nope, by no means a complete list



Iamapony said:
But, you have someone with less than three titles in your previous post.
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Two actually who have less than 3 with Freddie who has 2 in the 500cc and 1 in 250cc and also Saarinen.

As mentioned however with Freddie (Saarinen I add on pure reputation and research as I did not see enough of his riding) to me the achievement of two titles in the same year is quite remarkable and thus adds to his legend.


Iamapony said:
While I can wave my American flag with the best of them, I am not happy about several people being included in the group of "legends" including Hayden. And I will put my vote in for Stoner long before a half dozen people that are on the legends list, including some that I have met.
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I am an Aussie through and through and whilst I do not place CS on the list, if we are to accept the list as worthy than I agree and would happily place CS above others but as mentioned, he does not fit my category at World Level (despite the fact that I can still sit and watch his riding and that I still marvel at his abilities of today)




I should add that I fully recognise that 'legend' can also be class specific (ie. Biaggi in 250cc) so I do not always look fully at the top category as for mine, people who dominated a category of smaller capacity are as deserving as the top class of the time
 
Iamapony said:
I sure as hell hope this is not a full list, because it misses some pretty important people in motorcycle racing history.

But, you have someone with less than three titles in your previous post.

While I can wave my American flag with the best of them, I am not happy about several people being included in the group of "legends" including Hayden. And I will put my vote in for Stoner long before a half dozen people that are on the legends list, including some that I have met.
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I am in agreement with Gaz that he doesn't measure up to the likes of Rainey or King Kenny given he "only" won 2 titles and his early retirement, even though I sympathise with his reasons for retiring. He is undoubtedly an Australian legend and also a Ducati legend, a marque which has provided bikes for up to a third of the field for 15 years, and like Schwantz with Rainey the strongest competitor for a legendary rider while said rider was in his prime. He also somewhat revolutionised riding sending many to practise dirt track riding, although Kenny Roberts arguably already did this along with being generally revolutionary.

I think arguments can be made either way, not that I am fussed with who is in or out in regard to what is essentially a Dorna publicity stunt imo anyway as I have said.
 
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michaelm said:
I think arguments can be made either way, not that I am fussed with who is in or out in regard to what is essentially a Dorna publicity stunt imo anyway as I have said.
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Not sure a truer word has been spoken Mike.

Hall of Fame for a sport is one thing this DORNA Legend stuff, well I am sure it has been said many times is based on $$$$$$
 
Gaz said:
Old list Baz.

Has JL with 2 titles .......................... or perhaps it is an Italian based list :p
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Yeah I know its old but it does show that there are some pretty prominent players out there who have lots of wins .... but no title.

to me a classic is Hayden vs Pedrosa.
 
Has anyone mentioned Randy Mamola?
Came up short to the best of them on the hardest machines ever to be put on track.
Definetly more deserving than a lot of guys Dorna considers legends
 
WinstonWolf said:
Has anyone mentioned Randy Mamola?
Came up short to the best of them on the hardest machines ever to be put on track.
Definetly more deserving than a lot of guys Dorna considers legends
Click to expand...


Not yet, but I also suspect that he is mentioning Dani Pedrosa to people a heck of a lot :D
 
I believe that at an absolute minimum, to even be considered, they should have at least a single Premier Class WC to their name. However I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Uccio hasn't already nominated himself as the first non-rider to get such a title.
 
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Gaz said:
Said at the time.

For me, 3 titles gives automatic qualification ans thus CS misses out.

He is a legend of Australian motorcycle racing but for me, not of the world variety.

As mentioned earlier, I am a harsh ....... and to me, he is not the equal of (as example) Rainey who I genuinely rate higher.

It is not a popular thought but one I have always had and whilst I fully understand the alternate view points, I doubt that mine will ever change.

Aussie legend, yes.


Not going to discuss the death side to much as for some it is upsetting so do not wish to bring it back to the surface for those people (I am not one)

With regards to the highlighted however, I do wonder if we may be on the cusp of just such a rivalry with MM/MV?
Click to expand...

Not really understanding the 3 title thing Gaz. It's an arbitrary number based on nothing, especially factoring in that you said Schwantz is a legend. He has 1 title, that was only won when his main rival had a career-ending injury. Yet Stoner who delivered 2 titles, including the only title ever for Ducati is not worthy of legend status because he has 2 rather than 3. I just find it strange that the most talented rider of the last 2 decades with 2 titles, and scores of wins doesn't meet your standard, especially when one considers he remains the only rider to ever win a GP race with a carbon fiber chassis. For that matter, do you not consider Barry Sheene a legend because he only has 2 titles?

Death is an inevitable part of life and I don't see any reason to not have that discussion. If people are offended/bothered by such a discussion, I really don't care, nor do I see any reason to not discuss it.
 
WinstonWolf said:
Has anyone mentioned Randy Mamola?
Came up short to the best of them on the hardest machines ever to be put on track.
Definetly more deserving than a lot of guys Dorna considers legends
Click to expand...
Mamola had the bad luck of coming up short to true Legends.
 
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The Burning Barber said:
I believe that at an absolute minimum, to even be considered, they should have at least a single Premier Class WC to their name. However I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Uccio hasn't already nominated himself as the first non-rider to get such a title.
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Uccio has a fan club you know. His status ... laid-men is undisputed.

Stoner's Ducati title by itself is worthy of Legend status.
 

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