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Stoner to be inducted as legend.

Stoner was lauded by his peers, the paddock and fans as the best GP rider there has ever been ....... none of the others have ever had that contemporary adulation.
 
Who would we say is missing from that shortlist? I think Biaggi deserves a spot for winning four 250cc titles in a row.
 
BarryMachine
3634911381734311

Stoner was lauded by his peers, the paddock and fans as the best GP rider there has ever been ....... none of the others have ever had that contemporary adulation.
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Hailwood. Although maybe that mostly happened later.
 
Jumkie
3634661381724294

Question then, does Randy Mamola deserve to be in the GP HoF?


My answer: yes.



How about Nico Terol? My answer: no (yet Nico is a "world champ". Technically)
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Ah jums, you missed the 'etc' after champions didn't you?


 


With champions as I mention in the post, I do believe that all Champions should appear (and that is across all categories) in the Hall of Fame on an honour board type of setting (in Oz, generally clubs have honour boards that show championship winners etc) .


 


But to borrow from a later poster yes, I do mean that the HoF should be open to others including engineers (Kanemoto for instance) and not be restricted to just riders (theoretically it could include significant technology improvements as well).


 


As for Mamola, being honest I do not know if he should be in there as the achievement of 4 runner up titles is significant and worth lauding, but conversely as a rider was his impact worthy?     Now, before you go off I enjoyed watching Mamola and wish he had managed to snag that title so would probably say that he is worthy enough for a Hall of Fame.


 


But Jums, should DP in your eyes?


 


Further, a HoF should be about all classes so absolutely to the post elsewhere, Biaggi should be in there as should Martinez (IMO here, both are amongst the all time greats with Martinez a legend candidate)
 
BarryMachine
3634911381734311

Stoner was lauded by his peers, the paddock and fans as the best GP rider there has ever been ....... none of the others have ever had that contemporary adulation.
Click to expand...


Rossi has been acclaimed as this while still racing, by Mick Doohan for one.
 
michaelm
3635361381744614

Rossi has been acclaimed as this while still racing, by Mick Doohan for one.
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And Rossi later says Stoner is the best.


The best is bested ....... noting new there.


Though on skill and talent ...... as a rider .... I have never seen Rossi as really up there.
 
barbedwirebiker
3630411381481163

So casey is going to be inducted in the MotoGP hall of fame, do you think deservingly?


I do, twice world champion on two different bikes, lots of wins and podiums - not exactly sure how many. And all at the ripe age of 27. Congratulations Casey Stoner.
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2013/Casey+Stoner+to+become+MotoGP+Legend
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Well, I guess he deserves it--when you look at some of the other riders who are already in there.  As someone already mentioned, this is just the induction ceremony; his entry was already announced last year straight after Valencia.  It's also important to note that this is just Dorna's little prize (and the criteria aren't public, as far as I can tell), and therefore its really not much more than a glorified media award.


 


Of course, on stats alone, I'd say Stoner qualifies for any HoF, but agree with most that 'Legend' seems a strange title to confer by committee.  And, seriously, what's with the rush?  If you wait another ten years, he still wouldn't be as old as Hailwood during his famous IoM comeback.  I know this is a hobby horse of mine, but for ....'s sake, Dorna, are you living in the world of Logan's Run, or something?


  
michaelm
3630461381482739

My general view is that being dubbed a legend requires some time in retirement, although Valentino for one will obviously qualify straight away. I am not sure Stoner really bears comparison with the likes of Hailwood, Agostini, Roberts, Lawson, Rainey, Doohan et al, for reasons of longevity apart from anything else. I do think he is better than Wayne Gardner though, and I was a Gardner fan during his career.
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I'm not sure about Ago and Hailwood, but Stoner actually compares very favourably with the other riders you mentioned in terms of longevity (obviously with less titles, of course).  He had a longer time riding 800cc/1000cc than Roberts and Rainey did in the 500s.  And if you want to include 125s and 250s, he spent as long or longer than Lawson and Doohan in Grand Prix Racing.


 
Jumkie
3634661381724294

Question then, does Randy Mamola deserve to be in the GP HoF?


My answer: yes.



How about Nico Terol? My answer: no (yet Nico is a "world champ". Technically)
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I'd let Randy in; for him to be denied yet another title would be cruel! 


 


Nico doesn't care about Legend status--he just wants a corner named after him on every circuit on the calender.
 
Rising Sun
3635521381763880

Well, I guess he deserves it--when you look at some of the other riders who are already in there.  As someone already mentioned, this is just the induction ceremony; his entry was already announced last year straight after Valencia.  It's also important to note that this is just Dorna's little prize (and the criteria aren't public, as far as I can tell), and therefore its really not much more than a glorified media award.


 


Of course, on stats alone, I'd say Stoner qualifies for any HoF, but agree with most that 'Legend' seems a strange title to confer by committee.  And, seriously, what's with the rush?  If you wait another ten years, he still wouldn't be as old as Hailwood during his famous IoM comeback.  I know this is a hobby horse of mine, but for ....'s sake, Dorna, are you living in the world of Logan's Run, or something?


  


 


I'm not sure about Ago and Hailwood, but Stoner actually compares very favourably with the other riders you mentioned in terms of longevity (obviously with less titles, of course).  He had a longer time riding 800cc/1000cc than Roberts and Rainey did in the 500s.  And if you want to include 125s and 250s, he spent as long or longer than Lawson and Doohan in Grand Prix Racing.


 


 


I'd let Randy in; for him to be denied yet another title would be cruel! 


 


Nico doesn't care about Legend status--he just wants a corner named after him on every circuit on the calender.
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I am an unabashed Stoner fan as you are probably aware, and believe that his peak years for his 2 championships were as good as those of any rider. Most of his wins for Ducati were also probably a major achievement, particularly in retrospect.


 


What I meant was his longevity at the absolute pinnacle, as raised by Mick Doohan in his discussion of Rossi's career a couple of years ago. If Stoner  had won the 3rd championship in 2012 he might merit comparison with Rainey, Roberts et al. That he "only" has 2 is imo multifactorial and not necessarily a reflection of his relative talent in comparison to some of the riders I mentioned who basically all have 3 or more premier class championships, but maintaining motivation over long periods of time and even negotiating the political currents successfully which includes riding for the right teams has always been part of the success of the greats of the sport.
 
michaelm
3636071381797882

What I meant was his longevity at the absolute pinnacle, as raised by Mick Doohan in his discussion of Rossi's career a couple of years ago. If Stoner  had won the 3rd championship in 2012 he might merit comparison with Rainey, Roberts et al. That he "only" has 2 is imo multifactorial and not necessarily a reflection of his relative talent in comparison to some of the riders I mentioned who basically all have 3 or more premier class championships, but maintaining motivation over long periods of time and even negotiating the political currents successfully which includes riding for the right teams has always been part of the success of the greats of the sport.
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'Longevity at the absolute pinnacle'?  Isn't that a roundabout way of saying Rainey and Roberts won 3 500cc titles, Lawson and Hailwood 4, Doohan 5, Rossi 7, Ago 8, but Stoner only 2 800cc ones?  I suppose, if you're talking about being the guy everyone had to beat each Sunday they lined up to race, that couldn't be said of Stoner all throughout his 990/800/1000cc career (i.e. 2006; mid-2009; most of 2010) compared to the others.  Another way of looking at longevity would be the three year gap between Stoner's titles; no-one else has ever been able to get back to the top after such a span of time.  As for the last part, I'd argue that Stoner maintained motivation and negotiated the political currents as long as Roberts and Rainey et al, however, since I agree with your basic position we're really only discussing semantics at this point. :)
 
Another factor to take into account is the sheer number of races in a season. When Roberts won his three WCs he did it on the back of ten, ten and eight starts - Stoner needed 18 starts a season.


 


Hailwood won his first 500cc championship on the back of just five starts - and five wins. In all his years at the top added together, he won less races than Stoner did.
 
kiddyK
3636591381845106

Another factor to take into account is the sheer number of races in a season. When Roberts won his three WCs he did it on the back of ten, ten and eight starts - Stoner needed 18 starts a season.


 


Hailwood won his first 500cc championship on the back of just five starts - and five wins. In all his years at the top added together, he won less races than Stoner did.
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Yeah but look at some of these starts, I.O.M TT for one where Hailwood came out of retirement and was considered an old man. Didn't stop him handing everyone their ..... tho and winning several on the bounce. It's very hard to fairly judge or compare riders from different era's. Just too many variables.


Stoner was and will probably always be the most successful 800cc rider. I doubt we will ever return to that formula so that record will stand. Like Freddy Spensor's  250 and 500 championship win in the same season will never be beaten because i don't think its possible or even allowed to compete in 2 championship at the same time now. Both deserve to be in the HOF for these reasons alone imho.
 
SuperShinya56
3631871381601984

Of course, nowadays everyone qualifies to be a "legend".

 

BTW, da fucc did Kevin Schwantz do to be such a "legend"?  He's not even that accomplished...... I guess some dude with a redneck I don't care attitude who's too dumb to even know that he's dumb, will get you in the spotlight and make you bigger then you really are or something.  People are sheep, they follow people with a loudmouth..... but doesn't see that quiet dude who speak softly but carries a big stick. 
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Shinya Baby


Do you carry a big stick??
 
Rising Sun
3636531381837190

'Longevity at the absolute pinnacle'?  Isn't that a roundabout way of saying Rainey and Roberts won 3 500cc titles, Lawson and Hailwood 4, Doohan 5, Rossi 7, Ago 8, but Stoner only 2 800cc ones?  I suppose, if you're talking about being the guy everyone had to beat each Sunday they lined up to race, that couldn't be said of Stoner all throughout his 990/800/1000cc career (i.e. 2006; mid-2009; most of 2010) compared to the others.  Another way of looking at longevity would be the three year gap between Stoner's titles; no-one else has ever been able to get back to the top after such a span of time.  As for the last part, I'd argue that Stoner maintained motivation and negotiated the political currents as long as Roberts and Rainey et al, however, since I agree with your basic position we're really only discussing semantics at this point. :)
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We are in agreement. 3 premier class championships confers unequivocal legend status, and I don't think anyone would argue that any of the riders with 3 or more titles is not a legend.


 


I was roundabout/long winded, and I don't think Stoner can be blamed for not winning further titles on the Ducati, but he did at least eventually have the equipment to win in 2012 if he had been sufficiently patient and focused imo. Of course he may have crashed and injured himself at Indy anyway, whatever his mindset.
 
The short vs. long season goes both ways too. If you only had 8 races in a season, whoever turns up in form with a good bike can easily win the first few and set themselves up to be WC. But if you broke a collarbone and missed two races you would be ...... (or probably dead in the 1950s).


 


Whereas with 20 races, you can afford to have some bad form or an injury and still be in the running - but it also gives the other guys a chance to catch up, develop their bike, find some luck etc. You can win the first 5 races of the season and still be nowhere towards the WC.


 


Also, does something like Hailwood's IOM return indicate that he really was still a phenomenal rider at that time - or that the rest of them were about as good as Cliche?
 
Sloth_27
3637311381899286

The short vs. long season goes both ways too. If you only had 8 races in a season, whoever turns up in form with a good bike can easily win the first few and set themselves up to be WC. But if you broke a collarbone and missed two races you would be ...... (or probably dead in the 1950s).

 

Whereas with 20 races, you can afford to have some bad form or an injury and still be in the running - but it also gives the other guys a chance to catch up, develop their bike, find some luck etc. You can win the first 5 races of the season and still be nowhere towards the WC.

 

Also, does something like Hailwood's IOM return indicate that he really was still a phenomenal rider at that time - or that the rest of them were about as good as Cliche?
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Good post, Sloth.

Hailwood flogged Phil "8 times World Champion, did you hear that? 8 times" Read on a factory Honda in the 78 IoM TT.

So he did the business. But what gets me about the IoM myth is that it was his comeback ride. Wasn't.
 
Dr No
3637351381906167

Good post, Sloth.

Hailwood flogged Phil "8 times World Champion, did you hear that? 8 times" Read on a factory Honda in the 78 IoM TT.

So he did the business. But what gets me about the IoM myth is that it was his comeback ride. Wasn't.
Click to expand...


 


Didn't he do a few a races in NZ not long before that IoM?
 

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