Stoner threatens to leave MotoGP over rules

Jumkie said:

This is an argument that if u argue LOGICALLY you will not be able to hold the position. 500s, 990s, 800s, all creations of rules. Man made rules. Arbitrary rules, my fine friend.

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By that definitition there is no difference between F1, Indy or NASCAR. All creations of rules, man made rules, arbitrary rules. Can they all run together? Why not? Depends completely on the definition, sure. CRT as a way to create F1 style teams in motogp, yeah sounds ok. Production based parts and engines allowed, sounds not ok, not like F1 at all, more like NASCAR or SBK.



Epeletza has started a war by stating he will push out factories if required to make a CRT only series. Give CRT more fuel, more engines whatever it takes he said. Like saying throw some NASCARS into Indy, they can compete using their bigger bumpers by smashing into the open wheelers.



Stoner fires back saying if they kick out his employer then bye bye I'm outtahere. Im glad he chose my (+Povols +Honda's) side not yours.

mylexicon said:

I could write a book of conjecture and theory on these questions.

Long story short, the pattern I'm looking for is horsepower limitation (I didn't create the pattern). Every major car racing series has them.

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Thanks. I think your right. They were looking at caps without making it obvious. I was looking more at 2007, not 2008. Look how slow they were in that first race of 2007. Even Honda. Why is that, surely Honda would have wanted to be fastest, same as with the V5. From 2007 if you took out Ducati, then I think the 800 class would have been a major success. They (Japanese brands) were all going similar speed down the straight. Suzuki and Kawasaki were catching up fast. Yamaha concentrated on handling. Honda were going mass centralization instead of engine development. So in my book an agreement was struck. Close racing was the target.



Post 2008, without Ducati I am sure we would still have Michelin. They all would have stayed with valve springs. No desmo means no need to chase revs, no need for pneumatics, no more horsepower wars just concentrate on fuel conservation.



So Ducati (or Ferrari?) ruined it, first with a high reving desmo (developed by who, Ducati or Ferrari?) then with clever electronics (developed for who, Ducati or Ferrari?) sending the others into a mad scramble to catch up, costs spiralling out of control. The agreement was abandoned to go slow down straights thanks to Ducati. Stoner made it all much worse. As an unknown quantity, he contributed to breaking the agreement because it was assumed it must be the bike and the tires. Yet today it is Ducati that struggles, you could beat them with a spring valve engine. So take Stoner out of 2007 and 800 racing might have been great, close racing that everyone wants. Hows that for a conspiracy theory.

birdman said:

Apparently Rossi is off playing in rally cars while the unlimited testing Ducati is being tested by Checa? Seems like a lack of urgency. I think Rossi has given the middle finger to Ducati already. They want him testing the bike to get some return on their investment, he is only interested in one last title. So 2013 I would bet Rossi to Yamaha, not Honda too many waiting in the wings (Bradl and Marquez).



No one wants Ducati. They are stuck with Hayden. Stuck with? Rossi was competitive enough to beat Lorenzo at the end of 2010. Hayden has been competitive with Rossi, so would Hayden be able to beat Lorenzo on a Yamaha. I would speculate yes, he would and maybe would be going better than Spies.

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Bird, totally agree with ur Hayden take.



Regarding Rossi, there is a 'winter testing ban' in play at the moment. If Rossi could test, he prob would. Honestly bro, after the year they've had, a little vacation is a good thing.

birdman said:

No of course not Povol is a pro prototype legend who I always agree with blindly and he won the bet on CRT, its time for Jumkie to pay up, maybe even double pay up since they are also slower than moto2!!

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U havent been paying much attention to Pov's ascertion. He will not only lose the bet that he hasnt taken me up on, but he's aready backpedalled from his original stance. I suspect u will be doing the same. Though at least u wer not dumb enuf to say u would leave given the CRT doomsday. Btw, the 2012 season hasnt ended yet, right?



Now u wer the one who put up Wsbk champion rider times to compare to first shakedown mid-pack rider CRT times. Would u like to take me up on a bet that a CRT will beat a "prototype" lap time? Or are u gonna stay comfortably on the 'i wont put my money were my mouth is' like ur boy Pov?

Jumkie said:

Yes, but it didnt stop u good friend, from making the point that in Rossi's case it was a "bargin" tactic. Once u did that, u included urself. So yes, ur included based on ur previous post. (or would u like to detract?)

Yes, he will aboard a "prototype" as u and Pov define it (which ive argued, is simply a creation based on arbitrary rules, would u like to argue this point with me, Pov failed spectacularly). HOWEVER, the series will have CRTs in 2012, and when Stoner takes the field, he will IN FACT be part of that. Unless he leaves. So it matters not that he be on a "prototype" bike as he and u and Pov see it. Its the series that has moved on, the SERIES he says he would walk away from.



About CRTs verses "prototype", see my takes on the issue in other threads. 500s were no less or more "prototype" than 990s, than 800s, than CRTs. Pov, like Casey suggested they'd walk away from the next formula change stating it was because they would no longer be "prototype" racing. What made the formula such in their eyes? Because there was a fuel limit? Because there was an engine limit? Because there was a displacement change? This is an argument that if u argue LOGICALLY you will not be able to hold the position. 500s, 990s, 800s, all creations of rules. Man made rules. Arbitrary rules, my fine friend.

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I did not think I needed to spell things out to you in particular after all these years. I put "prototype" in commas deliberately as I do again, I am aware of the issues you mention as I was of the possible implication you could draw from my hypothetical point that if rossi did what have others said he did he was bargaining; seeing I had made no mention of this previously you were obviously clairvoyant in criticising my previous posts. I actually see no reason to believe rossi made any threat, as I said at the time I think bridgestone were happy to give him their tyres as long as it did not result in a control tyre.



I will stick to my view that stoner could be forgiven for thinking that him having a dominant winning season results in major rule changes. Bring it on. I think he will win on equal equipment, CRT or whatever, against the current field until he gets old or loses motivation.It is not highly unlikely that honda will come up with best CRT bike if it is the future formula and they stay in it as I am sure stoner is aware. He is the guy who has also been totally happy to give his data to teammates anyway. The current widely acclaimed F1 rules don't seem to have impeded the austrian bloke much. If the CRT formula ends up being a good one, or a step towards a good one, all hail to it. If he doesn't like it he can quit as he says, having still had a pretty reasonable career as he has not said but I can say. If you are going to draw such profound implications from the 1 or 2 line statement he made then I can as well, I think what he doesn't want is the bike racing equivalent of nascar, or its ersatz australian equivalent V8 supercars, with the phony equalisation, convenient yellow flags, etc.

Jumkie said:

U havent been paying much attention to Pov's ascertion. He will not only lose the bet that he hasnt taken me up on, but he's aready backpedalled from his original stance. I suspect u will be doing the same. Though at least u wer not dumb enuf to say u would leave given the CRT doomsday. Btw, the 2012 season hasnt ended yet, right?

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I see only what I want to see!!!! Slow CRT (but almost as fast as Ducati!!). No I didnt see the part where Pov threatened to leave (selective eyesight again).



2012 will be a good year man. CRT will be ok, the Spanish dude in charge will shut up, the Aussie dude wont.



I didnt realise there was a winter test ban. I was guessing Rossi wont waste his time until Ducati testers show a one second improvement. And they surely will at some point. One second better for Rossi should mean one second better Hayden. damn I said no more mystic megg until you pay up.

Jumkie said:

Now u wer the one who put up Wsbk champion rider times to compare to first shakedown mid-pack rider CRT times. Would u like to take me up on a bet that a CRT will beat a "prototype" lap time? Or are u gonna stay comfortably on the 'i wont put my money were my mouth is' like ur boy Pov?

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Those times were only to back up Pov, you cant use them for any other purpose. Sure I'll take a bet, read post above first though. As soon as a CRT beats a prototype, the CRT is a prototype for my selective vision. Pay up.

chopperman said:

the seasons not even started ! Do you have a crystal ball ? Im going to start calling you Mystic Megg

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Some Stoner fans can mind read, it appears, that also means some can tell the future too.

birdman said:

By that definitition there is no difference bewteen F1, Indy or NASCAR. All creations of rules, man made rules, arbitrary rules. Can they all run together? Why not? Depends completely on the definition, sure. CRT as a way to create F1 style teams in motogp, yeah sounds ok. Production based parts and engines allowed, sounds not ok, not like F1 at all, more like NASCAR or SBK.



Epeletza has started a war by stating he will push out factories if required to make a CRT only series. Give CRT more fuel, more engines whatever it takes he said. Like saying throw some NASCARS into Indy, they can compete using their bigger bumpers by smashing into the open wheelers.



Stoner fires back saying if they kick out his employer then bye bye I'm outtahere. Im glad he chose my (+Povols +Honda's) side not yours.

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This post is so insane that it merits no reply beyond this.

michaelm said:

I will stick to my view that stoner could be forgiven for thinking that him having a dominant winning season results in major rule changes.

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I found this part the most interesting of ur post. 'MOTIVES', eh?. They're a mothafuker.



Thanx for the exchange my good man.

Jumkie, you agreeing that with birdman's assertion that Hayden if given the second factory seat at Yamaha would match Lorenzo's pace/results is just wishful thinking. Sometimes the fanboy goggles that you view Hayden though seem to be on too tight.

Jumkie said:

This post is so insane that it merits no reply beyond this.

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A sure sign of defeat. Does F1 allow NASCAR based engines? So why should motogp. Why does the Spanish dude in charge say he will give them more fuel and engines whatever it takes. Because he already concedes CRT is too slow, will never beat a prototype. You lost the bet again, and again, and again.

mylexicon said:

Regarding the Duc in 2008, don't look at the revs, look at the tires. MotoGP had several rounds of emergency tire meetings. Michelin and Bridgestone come from F1 where they had a controlled-tire war. Imo, the wrote some rules to keep the tire war going without getting someone killed. I think the rules may only have governed the front tire which controls corner entry. Rossi/Burgess out-developed Stoner/Preziosi in 2008 and beyond. Bridgestone out developed Michelin. When Michelin left, Bridgestone was control supplier. When Stoner left, Ducati hired Rossi/Burgess to help them do what they haven't been able to do since 2008--engineer a bike to work with the tires. Yikes.



Not sure if you heard, but Dorna hired the former director of Bridgestone racing as a consultant. I'm optimistic Dorna are working on a set of rules to bring the tire war back. Imo, the first set of rules (2008) failed b/c Bridgestone developed the front tire with squishy edges. If the front tires were profile-controlled (like the WSBK tire war rules), a tire with a squishy edge would have made it impossible to regulate the size of the contact patch. Michelin bailed b/c they didn't want to bring F1 optimum-contact-patch technology to GP. They probably didn't have stuff as good as Bstone, either.

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I hesitate to disagree with you about tyres, concerning which you have consistently been correct. I agree michelin did fall behind, probably due to financial problems, and I believe they consented to the abolition of the saturday night specials because they could no longer sustain the cost. I think they were prepared to keep going though, as long as they had a contracted factory team, and as I recall ducati were prepared to switch to them.

birdman said:

Why is that, surely Honda would have wanted to be fastest, same as with the V5.

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Honda just screwed up. KRJR explained the reasoning behind the Honda 800cc project in a Soupcast that has become legend around here. Honda was running 10-15% power reduction in 2006 b/c that all the fuel and tires could handle. He said he would have bet money that Team KR would win races b/c chopping a cylinder off the V5 would have produced roughly the same power as a 990cc V5 with a 10%-15% power reduction.



What happened? Ducati showed up with some really trick MM electronics, and a trick fuel-injection system (allegedly). Ducati had a big power advantage. But much more importantly, Bridgestone and Michelin did a ton of tire development work. The carcasses got harder, and the contact patches got bigger b/c carrying cornerspeed is the best way to save fuel. Better tires can also handle more horsepower so teams that went conservative on horsepower got burned. IIRC, KRJR likened 2007 to his 2001 title defense. Michelin came out with new tires in 2001. Honda were able to put all of their horsepower to the ground. Suzuki were left for dead. Same story in 2007, except Bridgestone had the tires and Ducati had the power. They left everyone else for dead (with superb riding from Stoner).



The tires are to blame more than anything else, imo. If they were still using 2006-spec tires, I don't think any of this would have happened. As Krop likes to point out, the law of unintended consequences wins every time.

Jumkie said:

I found this part the most interesting of ur post. 'MOTIVES', eh?. They're a mothafuker.

Thanx for the exchange my good man.

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Do you believe stoner thinks he needs an advantage? I don't believe he feels such a need, whether or not he is correct.

birdman said:

I see only what I want to see!!!! Slow CRT (but almost as fast as Ducati!!). No I didnt see the part where Pov threatened to leave (selective eyesight again).



2012 will be a good year man. CRT will be ok, the Spanish dude in charge will shut up, the Aussie dude wont.



I didnt realise there was a winter test ban. I was guessing Rossi wont waste his time until Ducati testers show a one second improvement. And they surely will at some point. One second better for Rossi should mean one second better Hayden. damn I said no more mystic megg until you pay up.

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Its a good thing i stay up to exchange with my Aussie brethren while our Brit friends are sound asleep, otherwise who else would keep u guys inline? In Rossi's defense, (and if u've been around, u'd know i dont cime to his defense much) he's been hard at work all year. This year has really tested his resolve and though there have been some telling moments, he has stayed the course. Now that Duc has gone conventional, im thinking they may have a better year.

Jumkie said:

Its a good thing i stay up to exchange with my Aussie brethren while our Brit friends are sound asleep, otherwise who else would keep u guys inline?

.

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I am still australian, but currently in chicago with a mouseless keyboard, difficult for someone of my advanced age and poor computer skills.

mylexicon said:

Honda just screwed up. KRJR explained the reasoning behind the Honda 800cc project in a Soupcast that has become legend around here. Honda was running 10-15% power reduction in 2006 b/c that all the fuel and tires could handle. He said he would have bet money that Team KR would win races b/c chopping a cylinder off the V5 would have produced roughly the same power as a 990cc V5 with a 10%-15% power reduction.



What happened? Ducati showed up with some really trick MM electronics, and a trick fuel-injection system (allegedly). Ducati had a big power advantage. But much more importantly, Bridgestone and Michelin did a ton of tire development work. The carcasses got harder, and the contact patches got bigger b/c carrying cornerspeed is the best way to save fuel. Better tires can also handle more horsepower so teams that went conservative on horsepower got burned. IIRC, KRJR likened 2007 to his 2001 title defense. Michelin came out with new tires in 2001. Honda were able to put all of their horsepower to the ground. Suzuki were left for dead. Same story in 2007, except Bridgestone had the tires and Ducati had the power. They left everyone else for dead (with superb riding from Stoner).



The tires are to blame more than anything else, imo. If they were still using 2006-spec tires, I don't think any of this would have happened. As Krop likes to point out, the law of unintended consequences wins every time.

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Ur not dumb, just heartless.



Btw, when ur talking rev limits, clarify something for me, are u talking defacto rev limit, like say HP, or are u talking explicit rev limit, like say displacement?

michaelm said:

I hesitate to disagree with you about tyres, concerning which you have consistently been correct. I agree michelin did fall behind, probably due to financial problems, and I believe they consented to the abolition of the saturday night specials because they could no longer sustain the cost. I think they were prepared to keep going though, as long as they had a contracted factory team, and as I recall ducati were prepared to switch to them.

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Ducati did try to organize an insurrection against the control tire. I have no idea who shot it down. Ezpeleta is a more likely candidate than Michelin, I suppose. Kawasaki is the wild card, though. Did Kwak withdrawal for financial reasons before the sport went to control tire, thus, rendering the insurrection impotent? Did Kawasaki leave in anger b/c of the control tire?

mylexicon said:

Honda just screwed up.

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See I find that harder to believe than rev limits or other theories. Whats so hard for Honda to figure, why would they screw up? Ducati were at the 800 tests. They would have run the Honda in fuel conservation mode and seen the Ducati speed advantage. They must of heard the thing rev-shriek. From 2007 onwards a Honda with F1 pneumatics would have won how many 800 titles? They were sitting on their heels thinking horsepower wars were a thing of the past, there was some sort of agreement. Remember they were going too fast for the tracks. Maybe they just thought Ducati would blow up. Are Ferrari involved or do Ducati fully develop their own engines?