Toprak to leave yamaha at the end of the year.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Begrudge no. Be critical as a fan of theirs and of motorcycle racing yes. I just want to see the best racing possible so it is disheartening to see a great racer take a step backward.

I believe what Michael said above, that yamaha probably choose someone else over him so he bounced out. I get that and respect that. I just would have liked to see him find something better than bmw but maybe they promised him some future in devour that we are unaware of.

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BMW in the early 2010's seemed the team to be on. They made serious strides from the early days with Corser/Xaus to being genuine title contenders with Chaz D and Marco M. Then they pulled out.

For the re-return, they have seemed to sit stagnant. First they signed VDM, then Redding, but have seemed to do very little. Is it the constraint of the rules compared to 10 years ago? I don't know. Sadly, I suspect Toprak will have a mediocre time with them too. They seem to make big signings without showing any sign of improvement so I guess it is just the big paycheck.

Redding would have likely won the WSBK title last yr had he not moved (making place for Alvaro). Why would you move from the best bike in the field to arguably one of the worst? The only answer has to be money

mikesbytes said:

The reporters are having a field day suggesting who can replace Raz. There's some MotoGP and Moto2 names being branded around, no inside info backing those names up

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Remy Gardner? Franky Morbidelli?

michaelm said:

Sure, I am similarly disappointed, I really like how he rides, and was more interested in WSBK than I had been in years in his title year.

Still, if he has been knocked back by Yamaha for motogp he probably doesn’t have much of an entree elsewhere, and you can understand why he might not want to stay with them in WSBK as we have both said.

I hope as you do that BMW have something resembling a plan.

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Yamaha not wanting him in GP is on him though. They tested him what, twice? And he didn't shine. There is no shame in them wanting him as a good WSBK rider and not as a bad GP rider. Of course, none of us are privvy to the details, but he's only 26 and on a competitive bike. Which the BMW ain't.

Bern1 said:

Superbike used to be a stepping stone for a few, the truly elite riders who could quickly make the step to the premier class. Now it has become a refuge for the MotoGP has beens or never were. Brutal and a little sad is the real world.

Hang around too long there and the rider is doomed to stay there. Who really cares about record number of wins or championships in the junior class? Those who did make the jump late never made it In the big leagues.

Similar to dawdling around in Moto2 or 250 previously. Biaggi paved the way for Zarco. At least Biaggi won some races, he had a factory ride. Zarco, we’re all still waiting and he ain’t getting any younger.

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Same with Indycar and F1 drivers. Pissed me off that drivers who for years say 'naah Indycar is .... compared to F1' suddenly find interest in it when their F1 options run out, thereby depriving someone who's primary goal is Indycar, a seat.

mikesbytes said:

I predicted that Lorenzo would do badly at Ducati but then he did even worse than I thought he would, then the following year he turned it around at Ducati. Difficult to know about his year at Honda as he was plagued with injury. Riders who change manufacturers, each of them has a different story, for Lorenzo it didn't work but for Miller it appears to be working.

What are the stories of changing manufacturers within WSBK?

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The most famous story is Foggy switching to Honda for the 1996 season. It was a misadventure, but one that was probably made at an institutional level. In other words, the organizers were worried about the sport getting stale, and his results were poor enough that it spooked everyone into letting him return to Ducati the following year, though he did win a thrilling race at Hockenheim in 1996.

Rea went from race-winner to world champ when he switched from Honda to Kawasaki. Troy Corser became world champion again when he bailed on the Petronas team for Suzuki. Toprak left Kawasaki, won his first race at Yamaha, and then became world champ the following season. Melandri won on 4 different bikes. He didn't seem to be positively or negatively impacted, but that was under the old rules.

Personally, I don't think this era lends itself well to jumping manufacturers, but Toprak could prove me wrong.

Bern1 said:

Superbike used to be a stepping stone for a few, the truly elite riders who could quickly make the step to the premier class. Now it has become a refuge for the MotoGP has beens or never were. Brutal and a little sad is the real world.

Hang around too long there and the rider is doomed to stay there. Who really cares about record number of wins or championships in the junior class? Those who did make the jump late never made it In the big leagues.

Similar to dawdling around in Moto2 or 250 previously. Biaggi paved the way for Zarco. At least Biaggi won some races, he had a factory ride. Zarco, we’re all still waiting and he ain’t getting any younger.

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The quality of the riders, or our perception of their quality, seems to track with the state of the series and its formula. In the 750cc era, WSBK was a legitimate international championship, with its own minor league system. It was well differentiated.

Then MotoGP came along, and WSBK lost much of its differentiation, though it maintained its superior entertainment value. As MotoGP and SBK tracked similar paths, WSBK sort of evolved into a feeder class for MotoGP, though many dedicated SBK specialists remained. This was the era of Bayliss, Edwards, Toseland, Spies moving directly from SBK to MotoGP.

As the years have passed, Dorna has basically just stolen increasingly bigger parts of SBK's identity. First, grand prix returned to 1000cc with cylinder restrictions and bore numbers that are production relevant. Homologation rules expanded rapidly until it became possible for Dorna to guarantee that satellite teams have "factory" equipment. This year, MotoGP is even running multiple-races per weekend in the premier class to shore up flagging attendance and viewership.

To be fair to Dorna, they drastically overhauled SBK in 2018 by switching to balance of performance, which has allowed everything (from engine tuning to swingarms) to be true production parts available for sale. However, the changes only revolutionized the business-side of SBK, and did little or nothing to differentiate the on track product. As a result, SBK is basically a shell of its former self, and the quality and the pay is derived from that identity.

The current state of affairs is why I sometimes think that unifying the series is inevitable. Dorna have expressed a desire to move in that direction, and everything they have done since 2013 has created an amorphous identity-less blob of motorsport. I hope it doesn't happen, but just look at it. MotoGP and SBK bikes are very similar. How hard would it really be to move to CRT style rules? One of the bikes currently competing in WSSP, is the back bone for Moto2 bikes. They've spent a decade encouraging homogeneity. Are they really going to expend huge resources to make them separate again?

The next-step is for the has-beens to become the never-was.

#22 said:

Redding would have likely won the WSBK title last yr had he not moved (making place for Alvaro).

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I doubt it. Even on the best bike Redding is a crap shoot, BSB not withstanding. The Ducati was a good enough bike when he was riding it.

Move Morbid-deli's contract to WSBK.

Mick D said:

Move Morbid-deli's contract to WSBK.

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He's had 2 terrible seasons, but he's a multiple race winner. Not sure his time is up, though I would love to see him in WSBK on a Yamaha.

#22 said:

Remy Gardner? Franky Morbidelli?

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Morbidelli was one the names branded around for replacing Toprak, however I didn't mention names as there was no inside info, it was simply journalist imagination

Regarding performance balancing, if we look at the team mates of the 3 major riders we see a performance drop within each team and that makes it more difficult to tell what the performance difference between the factory teams and satellite/private teams is. This has made me wonder about Pettrucci at Barnard Ducati, comparing to Bautista how much of the performance difference is Pettrucci and how much is it the team and bike?

mikesbytes said:

Morbidelli was one the names branded around for replacing Toprak, however I didn't mention names as there was no inside info, it was simply journalist imagination

Regarding performance balancing, if we look at the team mates of the 3 major riders we see a performance drop within each team and that makes it more difficult to tell what the performance difference between the factory teams and satellite/private teams is. This has made me wonder about Pettrucci at Barnard Ducati, comparing to Bautista how much of the performance difference is Pettrucci and how much is it the team and bike?

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In World Superbike, when comparing teams and riders who compete for a common manufacturer, nearly all of the difference in performance is attributable to the rider and the team’s ability to find a
setup.

The bike is the work of the reference team ( factory team). They control which parts are legal. They control the exact state of the engine tune, within the FIM guidelines and adjustments. They are required to provide all of the parts to the satellite teams for a set price within a set period of time after a team orders parts. The design and function of the eligible parts is surely to the preferences of the factory riders, but everyone has access.

Teams and riders can either setup their bike or they can’t. Part of the reason Gerloff went from hero to zero is because he lost his crew chief, Les Pearson, for 2022 because Pearson was supposed to work with Mackenzie before Taz was injured and missed the 2022 WSBK season. Gerloff and Pearson have reunited at BMW, and while they aren’t exactly making an impact on the championship, Gerloff is the top scoring BMW.

Petrucci is supposedly having issues setting up the bike to work with the Pirellis. Maybe he became accustomed to the characteristics of MotoAmerica-spec Dunlops?

mylexicon said:

Petrucci is supposedly having issues setting up the bike to work with the Pirellis

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Yeh, tyres can make or break a rider, add to that he has also raced on Michelin's this year. I recall many years ago when there were multiple tyre brands on the grid that 2 Ducati riders got swapped between teams mid season so each of them could race on a different brand of tyre.