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Stoner threatens to leave MotoGP over rules

michaelm said:
I am still australian, but currently in chicago with a mouseless keyboard, difficult for someone of my advanced age and poor computer skills.
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Im sorry. Im sitting in SoCal, replying to u on my iphone with my right hand while my left hand is holding a cold Tecate beer, im wearing shorts & flip flops WHILE SITTING OUTSIDE in the patio at 8:30pm. It was over 80 degrees today, and clear skys. I decided to light a bonfire in the back yard and get buzzed. Chicago? Ur ....... Ur forecast: cold, 'dark', wind, & and ugly.
<
Any chance u'll be on the best coast?
 
Jumkie said:
Ur not dumb, just heartless.



Btw, when ur talking rev limits, clarify something for me, are u talking defacto rev limit, like say HP, or are u talking explicit rev limit, like say displacement?
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De jure (explicit) rev limit.



It would have been part of a private contract between the manufacturers to cut costs, like the RRA in F1. The Resource Restriction Agreement is a cost-cutting contract signed by the teams. The RRA is never added into the FIA rulebook, and the penalties for non-compliance are financial, whereas violating the FIA regs warrants scoring penalties or participatory exclusion. The contents of the RRA are secret, and everyone who signed it also agreed to non-disclosure. The fans know an RRA exists, but they know nothing about the contents. They can only guess how close it is to the demands made by the FIA.



Something similar could have been signed by the manufacturers to reduce costs in MotoGP, particularly the cost of building and designing qualifying grenades. I didn't go looking to stir up trouble on this one. The possibility of a private MSMA rulebook never even crossed my mind until Rossi's interview last year. His claim was completely out of the blue, but it was consistent with the rev limit talk from 2008.
 
Jumkie said:
Im sorry. Im sitting in SoCal, replying to u on my iphone with my right hand while my left hand is holding a cold Tecate beer, im wearing shorts & flip flops WHILE SITTING OUTSIDE in the patio at 8:30pm. It was over 80 degrees today, and clear skys. I decided to light a bonfire in the back yard and get buzzed. Chicago? Ur ....... Ur forecast: cold, 'dark', wind, & and ugly.
<
Any chance u'll be on the best coast?
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You are not kidding, I just walked 10 blocks without gloves. 37 degrees Fahrenheit here, 30 degrees Celsius in Sydney according to reliable reports. I have to go straight back to work, my only contact with the best coast will be LAX. I will make strenuous efforts to attend Laguna Seca 2012 though.
 
mylexicon said:
De jure (explicit) rev limit.



It would have been part of a private contract between the manufacturers to cut costs, like the RRA in F1. The Resource Restriction Agreement is a cost-cutting contract signed by the teams. The RRA is never added into the FIA rulebook, and the penalties for non-compliance are financial, whereas violating the FIA regs warrants scoring penalties or participatory exclusion. The contents of the RRA are secret, and everyone who signed it also agreed to non-disclosure. The fans know an RRA exists, but they know nothing about the contents. They can only guess how close it is to the demands made by the FIA.



Something similar could have been signed by the manufacturers to reduce costs in MotoGP, particularly the cost of building and designing qualifying grenades. I didn't go looking to stir up trouble on this one. The possibility of a private MSMA rulebook never even crossed my mind until Rossi's interview last year. His claim was completely out of the blue, but it was consistent with the rev limit talk from 2008.
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Ok, but in 08, Duc was exploring revs in the range of US debt, wouldnt they also have to agree to this secret agreement? Why would they agree if it was only them that would stand to lose?
 
michaelm said:
You are not kidding, I just walked 10 blocks without gloves. 37 degrees Fahrenheit here, 30 degrees Celsius in Sydney according to reliable reports. I have to go straight back to work, my only contact with the best coast will be LAX. I will make strenuous efforts to attend Laguna Seca 2012 though.
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How long is ur stop in LAX? If its at a decent hour and duration, i'd meet u. If its long enuf, there is a titie bar joint only blocks from the terminal. Serves good beer. Its open 24/7. As long as its not a lighting stay, like my friend Levi sometimes does with minutes notice. All on me of course. PM me details, i'll make the trip.



Stop teasing about Laguna. I already know u Aussies, Nuts left me hanging big time.
 
mylexicon said:
The tires are to blame more than anything else, imo. If they were still using 2006-spec tires, I don't think any of this would have happened. As Krop likes to point out, the law of unintended consequences wins every time.
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I dont think so. The Yamaha has been easy to design around both tires. Take Ducati/Stoner out of 2007 and you would have an epic Rossi vs Pedro, Yamaha vs Honda battle for the title, with the occassional Capi/Ducati camio. Perfect as per design. Heaps of Rossi overtaking Pedro on brakes, Pedro o/t Rossi on straights. But with the clear handling advantage and no Lorenzo to screw it up, Rossi would be able to play. No need then to switch to B/S. Ducati were the unintended consequence. Before 2007 I predicted ??? wins for Stoner, I think att I was hopeful for one?
 
Jumkie said:
Ok, but in 08, Duc was exploring revs in the range of US debt, wouldnt they also have to agree to this secret agreement? Why would they agree if it was only them that would stand to lose?
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Maybe I have it wrong. Maybe it was introduced in 2009 with the engine reliability rules. Maybe Ducati and Suzuki were against the rules b/c they knew Honda would have a huge advantage (probably Yamaha as well), but Ducati and Suzuki really needed to cut costs. In order to get the engine rules put through, Honda agreed to accept a 19,000rpm rev limit.



Perhaps that makes more sense. It's more compelling than stopping qualifying grenades, though, I still think nades are a valid reason to limit revs. Also, the manufacturers were pushing in 2008 well before the engine rules were introduced. Maybe the 19,000rpm limit was the original attempt at 'engine life' rules?



Hard to say. Private contracts are private b/c the information is worth $$$. If we had it, we could all run MotoGP like the MSMA.
 
birdman said:
I dont think so. The Yamaha has been easy to design around both tires. Take Ducati/Stoner out of 2007 and you would have an epic Rossi vs Pedro, Yamaha vs Honda battle for the title, with the occassional Capi/Ducati camio. Perfect as per design. Heaps of Rossi overtaking Pedro on brakes, Pedro o/t Rossi on straights. But with the clear handling advantage and no Lorenzo to screw it up, Rossi would be able to play. No need then to switch to B/S. Ducati were the unintended consequence. Before 2007 I predicted ??? wins for Stoner, I think att I was hopeful for one?
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Well, both brands of tire were changing. Michelin redesigned their tires for 22L in 2006. They probably did more work for 2007. When they realized they had a performance deficit with Bridgestone, Michelin continued developing. All the while, the benefits of horsepower were increasing, but horsepower was not something the 800cc Honda or Yamaha engines were designed to deliver.
 
mylexicon said:
I'm not worried about making roll call for the lynch mob. I'm interested in understanding why the vid is released 7 years after-the-fact, and how the judicial system can remedy the situation.



I'm not interested in whether or not Krop thinks I'm sane. I'm concerned with understanding the officials and executives who use engineering models and business models to govern their sports.



Rossi said the sport is rev limited. Part of the MSMA was pushing for rev limits in 2008. Next year, Ezpeleta is pushing for rev limits. Moto2 is rev limited. Moto3 is rev limited. BSB is rev limited. I'm a weirdo who is obsessed with rev limits? Surely, you jest.
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Why would they be rev limited? It should depend on how much the rider's and electronics input is given in, given the litres of gasoline. Hell.... let them rev all they want, but if they don't finish the race then...... too bad.
 
mylexicon said:
Well, both brands of tire were changing. Michelin redesigned their tires for 22L in 2006.
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And 2006 was an epic year. Reduced fuel was not such a big problem for Hayden, nor redesigned tires, nor prototypes, he rode point and shoot, or at least sideways on entry (see Jumkie, CRT not the answer, 2006 is the proof, the tire war is all that matters)



mylexicon said:
All the while, the benefits of horsepower were increasing, but horsepower was not something the 800cc Honda or Yamaha engines were designed to deliver.
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Thats exactly how it looks. Five brands and what, 15 bikes were fairly well matched for 2007 with prototype tires. Only one anomaly. At first that anomaly was Ducati. Then it was bridgestone. Now its Honda. Every time they get it wrong.



Stoner actually struggles to clear off on certain tire combinations. No-one at Dorna learnt anything from that? So how often do other riders struggle due to the tire combination. And whats CRT got to do with it. Every rider should get a tire specifically designed just for them. Sounds ridiculous, yet every rider has a certain frame or individual set-up, so why not tires? Even with a single supplier I dont see why its not possible to fund this (Dorna).
 
mylexicon said:
Maybe I have it wrong. Maybe it was introduced in 2009 with the engine reliability rules. Maybe Ducati and Suzuki were against the rules b/c they knew Honda would have a huge advantage (probably Yamaha as well), but Ducati and Suzuki really needed to cut costs. In order to get the engine rules put through, Honda agreed to accept a 19,000rpm rev limit.



Perhaps that makes more sense. It's more compelling than stopping qualifying grenades, though, I still think nades are a valid reason to limit revs. Also, the manufacturers were pushing in 2008 well before the engine rules were introduced. Maybe the 19,000rpm limit was the original attempt at 'engine life' rules?



Hard to say. Private contracts are private b/c the information is worth $$$. If we had it, we could all run MotoGP like the MSMA.
Click to expand...



I dont think there is a hard/ explicit rev limit. I think there may be a defacto rev limit with the introduction of engine limits.



Does having an explicit rev limit make u feel better, or can a defacto one let u sleep at night? God knows grown men beating the .... out of little girls doesnt effect ur REM.



Speaking of which, good night yall. Gotta work tomorrow. Ta ta.
 
Kropotkin said:
Actually, it's more like having a conversation with someone who seems completely rational and intelligent and then starts ranting about thermite and controlled demolition...
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Well Kroptkin thinks that his government isn't the lying, stealing, torturing, murdering ........ that anyone looking from the outside can plainly see they are. Perhaps stick to discussing bikes and leave the conspiracy theory comments to those of us who haven't been brainwashed by the 'Greatest country on earth.'
 
Jumkie said:
I dont think there is a hard/ explicit rev limit. I think there may be a defacto rev limit with the introduction of engine limits.
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I don't particularly care if there was a 19,000rpm de jure rev limit b/c it would have been just a safeguard. It didn't affect the outcome of the championship, and it certainly isn't improving the racing.



At the end of the day, the GPC is terrified of cost and top speed. They've demonstrated fear of top speed since 2003, and fear of cost since 2008. If the GOAT says engines are rev limited to reduce top speed (ergo cost), my ears perk up. Furthermore, the onboard telemetry shown during the races is consistent with his claims. How did the rev counter get on TV in the first place? Normally, the information is sensitive. If they look at each others tachometer data, they might not care if the info goes on TV. Their competitors don't get anything they don't already have, and Dorna gets a cool graphic.



I really don't have much invested in the MotoGP rev limit. It doesn't really affect competition. I didn't see it ahead of time. Rossi just dropped it in my lap. WSBK is a different story.
 
Jumkie said:
If its long enuf, there is a titie bar joint only blocks from the terminal.



Stop teasing about Laguna. I already know u Aussies, Nuts left me hanging big time.
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Yeah, fucken Aussies with fucken broken promises.

<


You didn't tell me there is a good peeler bar close to LAX !!!!
 
The biggest cost in MotoGP is in the electronics and in the technology (and electronics) that go in to fuel saving.

Want to make MotoGP cheaper, limit the electronics to WSBK standard and give them enough fuel.
 
There is a rev limit, but it's a secret. Only I know about it, none of you can prove it isn't there.



I'm sorry Krop you give Lex way too much credit, this is what happens when a person without particularly high intelligence gets a lot of knowledge.
 
birdman said:
I had to dumb ... nerd Google that. Yes its fine to refer to me as Sir Mystic Megg. But no more predictions until both you and Jumkie pay up. Crystal balls dont come cheap.
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Pay up ?? what bet do we have with each other then? From our posts i would say the bet is:-

You bet the CRT bikes will be slower than moto2

My bet is they will be faster.

Now what are we betting?

I will bet you a bottle of 57%vol woods 100 Rum. What similar high priced plonk do you have to match the bet?
 

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