Silly Season 2016

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Actually I think Rossi wants Vinales 22.

He's young and impressionable.

Rossi wants a well-defined #2 rider for his final 2 years since that's all he has wanted since 2010.

While it will never happen, imagine if Yamaha made a huge play for, and signed Marquez?

Either way, I have no respect left for Yamaha since they did everything to put Rossi ahead of the guy who has won them a shitload of races and titles over the last 6 years. Something to be proud of I guess.
 
Absolutely agree. The tone of Jarvis since the Rossi-debacle has been telling. He's tried to protect Rossi and the underlying message I detect is, Lorenzo can like it or leave it. Yes, yes, the words are right coming out of his mouth, but I'm not convinced. A buddy of mine mentioned this to me a while back, and pointed out Lin's inclination toward Rossi, it's as if the brand principals had already decided they were going to go for the big marketing push into perpetuity and Lorenzo is secondary in that plan. This assertion my detractors can chalk up to my biases, subterfuge; I accept that. It's just a feeling i get. I was just texting another buddy last night that when Yamaha tendered the contract to both riders before Qatar and Rossi signed it immediately (despite his claim of waiting several races) the 'writing was on the wall'.

For me it's part of the overall narrative and environment the Rossi-Dorna partnership has created in this sport which bothers me. Anybody who denies it's existence is blind at best. Iowegian, I know you were a fair Rossi supporter, and frankly there truly are many honest good supporters of Rossi and other riders. Some like and admire his qualities. Others admire his Machiavellian cunning ability to get his way! I know the man is super talented on a motorcycle, this is not the debate at all (though often it's the fallacy used as a debate tactic). I've watched enough GP to understand, as others have said, Rossi is a great motorcycle racer. However I'm also acutely aware of the toxic power political environment the Rossi-centric sphere Carmelo has created. It has provided tangible and untold intangibles that have made his operation in the sport untouchable and vastly overstated in the record books.

It's this environment that affects people operating in this sphere which i believe impacts the proceedings not just for Rossi but detrimental to others. We see microcosm of it all around us, we are all familiar with it in our local lives, yet when we see it play out in this sport it seems we are willing to view it in a bubble. I swear it's fascinating stuff. I guess that's the reality of sport. As if the regular inclinations of humans in highly charged political environments suddenly don't apply.

I mentioned this next point after last year's Rossi debacle: the working environment for Marquez (and Lorenzo ) has become toxic!


Maybe some of you may not relate to a bad working environment, to you I say well done; but I've worked in an environment once that was unpleasant, the supervisor was a total bitch, it took the fun out of being at work. Lucky for me I was able to go to another job. But maybe some can relate to say an unhappy relationships where you felt stuck, or an ....... family member, or having to deal with an ....... boss or jerk coworker that is protected because of his connections.

On this forum basically everything we assert may be challenged. For the most part that's a good thing. It's why I said above anyone can chalk up my assertion about Lin Jarvis' attitude towards Rossi and Lorenzo as bias (or dismiss as "conspiracy" though the word doesn't really apply, but that's never stopped anyone from misusing the term).

I believe Casey Stoner left the sport specifically because of this toxic Rossi-centric environment created and facilitated by Dorna and leveraged by Rossi to crush and eliminate his rivals. Admirable? Debatable. Marquez said something to the effect, it's one thing to command media attention and influence, it's quite another to use that against someone (you can include the entire sphere of influence in this statement: fans, paddock, organizer, officials, etc.) The message is clear in that assertion.

Consider this, having a potential world champion, and surely one of the current greatest talents on a motorcycle retired is a reflection of the toxic Rossi-centric reality; and I'd say it's an indictment of the reality that Lorenzo and Marquez now have to operate in. We can all say, oh these guys are strong they can just brush it off their shoulders, but I doubt anybody here could. .... we all get bent when someone so much as disagrees with a post or are annoyed when someone 'likes' a post we disagree with.

The fact is Lorenzo and Marquez are currently being jeered in public for some made up crime Rossi has accused them of, seriously his accusation is UFO sighting type stuff, and his rabid fans have bought it hook line sinker reel. It's the court of public opinion which is now expressing their guilty conviction, it's similar to the greater society except much much worse because MotoGP is akin to a niche fandom, overwhelmingly made of Rossi cult. This is the new reality for Marquez and Lorenzo. Who here thinks that doesn't produce resentments? A natural human response.

Now you're talking Jumkie.

Pretty much my view. The guy can ride a bike par excellence, we have all watched him do so these past 2 decades, and to dismiss the talent and achievements of the guy with the most premier class wins and 7 premier class titles is to dismiss the sport.

What you say is absolutely correct imo though, he has produced a toxic work environment for JL and MM, and I now retrospectively substantially blame him for also producing such an environment for Stoner, having blamed only the crazy element among his fans +/- Dorna at the time.
 
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Actually I think Rossi wants Vinales 22.

He's young and impressionable.

Rossi wants a well-defined #2 rider for his final 2 years since that's all he has wanted since 2010.

While it will never happen, imagine if Yamaha made a huge play for, and signed Marquez?

Either way, I have no respect left for Yamaha since they did everything to put Rossi ahead of the guy who has won them a shitload of races and titles over the last 6 years. Something to be proud of I guess.

The only proviso I would make is that I do think the base Yamaha bike is better with Rossi on the team, even now.

None of the guys mentioned, Vinales, Iannone, Pedrosa or Rossi himself is winning a title imo even if the bike is very good.

A rider I disliked, and a marque of whom I am no great fan in general as they are prone to ruthlessness and bullying themselves, are likely to stop that if MM continues to ride according to prevailing limitations, be they due to the bike, tyres or the conditions, and both rider and manufacturer definitely don't drink the Rossi Koolaid, and probably can't be constrained overly by Dorna, even if they should have been in the past. Jorge winning a title for Ducati would be a bonus, but one I wouldn't really anticipate.
 
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The thing I am going to say to you Mike and others, is that while greatly talented, I feel you guys accord far too much to Rossi in terms of riding ability. I'd say there are no slow riders in GP. Even in knowing the advantages he was afforded, it's easy to see the results and feel one is unable to argue with them. He's a great mixed condition and wet weather rider, far beyond most of the current crop of riders in my estimation. I certainly feel that outside of Casey Stoner who I'd rate higher, he is the best low grip condition rider of the last decade and a half.

The reason I state this is that 2006 which saw the most parity ever amongst GP machines in the 4-stroke era, Rossi had a chance to separate himself from the pack based purely on talent alone, and simply was not able to do it...and to add insult to injury, in the first truly pressure cooker ride of his career at Valencia, he crashed which eliminated him from securing what seemed to be a probable 6th straight title. Point being that when GP machinery was as even as one could ever possibly see for a non-spec prototype series, he was a bit more ordinary than anyone could have imagined up to that point. His '09 title was the best title he won. But there's two phases to his career, the Unequal Machinery and Tire Phase of 2001-2005 and then the Challenger Phase where there was an influx of tremendous talent that was equal to or superior to he, and that's been 2006-present.

I feel particularly strongly that a man who has been accorded unquestioned alien status by a vast majority of the GP populace, is to simply be ignorant as to where he really stands. The Challenger Phase is the more important period to view imo as things became difficult with regards to the competition, and he only had two premier class titles to show for it, the last of which came 7 seasons ago. The Ducati stint was a combination of arrogance and imo him looking for another RCV211 V5 that he could use to trounce the competition, and restore the narrative of him being the man and not having this ever questioned.

Anyway just my 2 cents.
 
Actually I think Rossi wants Vinales 22.

He's young and impressionable.

Rossi wants a well-defined #2 rider for his final 2 years since that's all he has wanted since 2010.

While it will never happen, imagine if Yamaha made a huge play for, and signed Marquez?

Either way, I have no respect left for Yamaha since they did everything to put Rossi ahead of the guy who has won them a shitload of races and titles over the last 6 years. Something to be proud of I guess.

I don't know about that, I think there is a very good chance that Vinales beats him on equal machinery especially as they both get older and Rossi slips while Vinaeles improves. If Vinaeles signs with Yamaha within half a season he becomes Rossis new public enemy number 1.
 
I don't know about that, I think there is a very good chance that Vinales beats him on equal machinery especially as they both get older and Rossi slips while Vinaeles improves. If Vinaeles signs with Yamaha within half a season he becomes Rossis new public enemy number 1.

Unless Yamaha has a number 2 proviso in any contract a new rider signs, which I wouldn't put out of the realm of possibility now.

I'd rather see Suzuki somehow retain Vinales as it'd be nice to see him try and do something on the GSX-RR instead of cutting loose and running at the first opportunity.
 
The thing I am going to say to you Mike and others, is that while greatly talented, I feel you guys accord far too much to Rossi in terms of riding ability. I'd say there are no slow riders in GP. Even in knowing the advantages he was afforded, it's easy to see the results and feel one is unable to argue with them. He's a great mixed condition and wet weather rider, far beyond most of the current crop of riders in my estimation. I certainly feel that outside of Casey Stoner who I'd rate higher, he is the best low grip condition rider of the last decade and a half.

The reason I state this is that 2006 which saw the most parity ever amongst GP machines in the 4-stroke era, Rossi had a chance to separate himself from the pack based purely on talent alone, and simply was not able to do it...and to add insult to injury, in the first truly pressure cooker ride of his career at Valencia, he crashed which eliminated him from securing what seemed to be a probable 6th straight title. Point being that when GP machinery was as even as one could ever possibly see for a non-spec prototype series, he was a bit more ordinary than anyone could have imagined up to that point. His '09 title was the best title he won. But there's two phases to his career, the Unequal Machinery and Tire Phase of 2001-2005 and then the Challenger Phase where there was an influx of tremendous talent that was equal to or superior to he, and that's been 2006-present.

I feel particularly strongly that a man who has been accorded unquestioned alien status by a vast majority of the GP populace, is to simply be ignorant as to where he really stands. The Challenger Phase is the more important period to view imo as things became difficult with regards to the competition, and he only had two premier class titles to show for it, the last of which came 7 seasons ago. The Ducati stint was a combination of arrogance and imo him looking for another RCV211 V5 that he could use to trounce the competition, and restore the narrative of him being the man and not having this ever questioned.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

I am a Doohan (I posted on another forum as doohanfan) and Stoner fan, and never was a Rossi fan, and now actively dislike him which I didn't before the end of last season.

As a counterpoint to the 2006 season which was the most competitive season ever, a point I have made myself, is last season, when he beat MM and nearly beat Lorenzo, who imo are rather good, at age 36. Mick Doohan himself said a few years ago that what was truly impressive about Rossi was that he had managed to stay at the top for so many years, which he acknowledged he hadn't managed to do for as long himself. Maintaining the physical and mental fitness to do so is not negligible. I would like to think Stoner had more talent, and from my biased point of view was manouevered against after his 2 title wins, but he probably did have the equipment to win in 2012 despite said manouevers if he had maintained the inhuman focus of his title winning seasons. His riding style and the focus required for it was never going to be sustainable for 7 titles imo, and the focus issue applies even more so to other riders with less talent than him (most other riders imo of course) however good the equipment you gave them.

As I have said I agree with Povol, he is a great rider but not ahead of other great riders, and I am willing to listen to the argument made by either you or JPS that he is lesser than the likes of Hailwood who like Stoner but for much longer distinguished himself by being able to ride lesser equipment to wins, KRSR who was more revolutionary and managed to win as a rookie etc, and Wayne Rainey.
 
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Now you're talking Jumkie.

Pretty much my view. The guy can ride a bike par excellence, we have all watched him do so these past 2 decades, and to dismiss the talent and achievements of the guy with the most premier class wins and 7 premier class titles is to dismiss the sport.

Au contraire my friend, I do dismiss many of VR's "achievements" and much of the legitimacy of the sport. It is precisely my position in the argument. I've been consistently saying this for years. Furthermore, I'm dismayed at why those few of us who breath the histrionics of the sport accept as legitimate such a glaring inequity in how the record has been achieved. The only "legitimacy" for those who accept this record can point to is the rulebook did not prevent the tire supplier to assign good tires and bad tires! Your position, and anybody who accepts Rossi's record as legitimate is not based on Rossi's talent, but rather that his record reflects "achievements" made while on good tires.

Allow me to explain it this way: there is no rule that says Honda have to provide all their riders with equally competitive machines. Honda can for example give one rider the best Honda and every other rider a 2nd tier Honda. Your rationale would accept the wins by the only rider on the best Honda as legitimate, then point to the wins against his Honda rivals (and 2nd tier Hondas) and conclude, he is better. You could say his accomplishments are within the rules. It's basically what happened when Rossi was on SNS. You accept the record that was achieved on an uneven playing field. Your support for the position of accepting his SNS-titles seems to be, well Rossi is a great rider and it was within the rules.

My position is, Rossi’s record is artificially distorted because it was achieved wilst tire-doping. The doping was within the rules. The rules allowed for the lab (tire supplier) to decide who got the performance enhancing drugs and who didn't. I honestly cannot understand why we accept this as reasonable.

What's more disturbing is that the further away we get from the reality of how Rossi achieved this record, the more time that passes, the clear inequity becomes faded, vague, and revised. This generation is barely aware (worse don't believe or accept) Rossi’s titles were achieved on better tires! You can already see it now. A good example is this toxic environment that has been created with the jeering, catchalling, and expression of fan disapproval. Notice the subtle change, it's as if people are forgetting exactly where it came from! Now it's just the stupid fans. Yet this is directly a cause from Valentino Rossi himself. Even Gavin Emmett failed to call out the cause when he diplomatically (and I'm being mild) tried to call attention to it. The journalists don't have the balls, much less anybody else within the sport.

Gavin Emmett didn't say, 'question for Valentino, it's clear your baseless accusations have resulted in your fans expressing disrespectful jeering of Marquez and Lorenzo on the podium, do you think this is an acceptable aspect of our sport?' Don't you Valentino Rossi bare responsibility for this toxic environment?'

No, he didn't ask the question this way, and as much as I like Gavin Emmett, and I'll include David Emmett (Kropo) they refuse to take Rossi to task. And so we begin to have this fading of the reality of the sport at the time. The arguments are beginning to be mounted, 'well Rossi has no responsibility for the boo birds, he's not telling them to jeer these riders'. Just 6 months removed the connection from cause and effect is becoming blurred. Exactly like the SNS era, which artificially inflated Rossi’s record. Those titles may only be "legitimate" in the legal sense of the word, it was not prohibited by the rulebook, but in the logic of authentic competition, those title are utterly corrupt.
 
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While I agree with most of what you say on principle, one could argue using your criteria the only way any victories would be "legitimate" is if MotoGP were a spec series. Certain machines will always be better than others, and the factories usually put the best riders on them. The other side of the coin of course, is that the machine also has to suit the rider. Could MM be just as successful on the M1? I am inclined to say no, just because the style required to get the best out of the machine isn't the way Marc rides.


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Thanks for posting that Jum. That's what I was getting at with my post and precisely why his titles are all .... for the most part. After Arrab's write up regarding the first three seasons of VR in GP how anyone can feel that those titles are anything more than a farce is beyond me.
 
Au contraire my friend, I do dismiss many of VR's "achievements" and much of the legitimacy of the sport. It is precisely my position in the argument. I've been consistently saying this for years. Furthermore, I'm dismayed at why those few of us who breath the histrionics of the sport accept as legitimate such a glaring inequity in how the record has been achieved. The only "legitimacy" for those who accept this record can point to is the rulebook did not prevent the tire supplier to assign good tires and bad tires! Your position, and anybody who accepts Rossi's record as legitimate is not based on Rossi's talent, but rather that his record reflects "achievements" made while on good tires.

Allow me to explain it this way: there is no rule that says Honda have to provide all their riders with equally competitive machines. Honda can for example give one rider the best Honda and every other rider a 2nd tier Honda. Your rationale would accept the wins by the only rider on the best Honda as legitimate, then point to the wins against his Honda rivals (and 2nd tier Hondas) and conclude, he is better. You could say his accomplishments are within the rules. It's basically what happened when Rossi was on SNS. You accept the record that was achieved on an uneven playing field. Your support for the position of accepting his SNS-titles seems to be, well Rossi is a great rider and it was within the rules.

My position is, Rossi’s record is artificially distorted because it was achieved wilst tire-doping. The doping was within the rules. The rules allowed for the lab (tire supplier) to decide who got the performance enhancing drugs and who didn't. I honestly cannot understand why we accept this as reasonable.

What's more disturbing is that the further away we get from the reality of how Rossi achieved this record, the more time that passes, the clear inequity becomes faded, vague, and revised. This generation is barely aware (worse don't believe or accept) Rossi’s titles were achieved on better tires! You can already see it now. A good example is this toxic environment that has been created with the jeering, catchalling, and expression of fan disapproval. Notice the subtle change, it's as if people are forgetting exactly where it came from! Now it's just the stupid fans. Yet this is directly a cause from Valentino Rossi himself. Even Gavin Emmett failed to call out the cause when he diplomatically (and I'm being mild) tried to call attention to it. The journalists don't have the balls, much less anybody else within the sport.

Gavin Emmett didn't say, 'question for Valentino, it's clear your baseless accusations have resulted in your fans expressing disrespectful jeering of Marquez and Lorenzo on the podium, do you think this is an acceptable aspect of our sport?' Don't you Valentino Rossi bare responsibility for this toxic environment?'

No, he didn't ask the question this way, and as much as I like Gavin Emmett, and I'll include David Emmett (Kropo) they refuse to take Rossi to task. And so we begin to have this fading of the reality of the sport at the time. The arguments are beginning to be mounted, 'well Rossi has no responsibility for the boo birds, he's not telling them to jeer these riders'. Just 6 months removed the connection from cause and effect is becoming blurred. Exactly like the SNS era, which artificially inflated Rossi’s record. Those titles may only be "legitimate" in the legal sense of the word, it was not prohibited by the rulebook, but in the logic of authentic competition, those title are utterly corrupt.

This fading away of history is sad but inevitable as I see it. History is written by the victors, not the losers.

It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that tires play the biggest part in winning a championship. It sounds like they're more important than rider skill and even the bikes themselves. My question is, why can't we as fans see at least one season where every rider receives tires that are engineered to absolutely conform to their riding style? What I've been reading suggests that this is possible, with reports being that Rossi was given tires specifically tailored to allow him to win. This would "level" the playing field more than any spec ecu or tire could allowing every rider to be able to ride to their full potential. I think that would be awesome.

Now obviously this will never happen but I would love to see the outcome if it ever would.
 
I am a Doohan (I posted on another forum as doohanfan) and Stoner fan, and never was a Rossi fan, and now actively dislike him which I didn't before the end of last season.

As a counterpoint to the 2006 season which was the most competitive season ever, a point I have made myself, is last season, when he beat MM and nearly beat Lorenzo, who imo are rather good, at age 36. Mick Doohan himself said a few years ago that what was truly impressive about Rossi was that he had managed to stay at the top for so many years, which he acknowledged he hadn't managed to do for as long himself. Maintaining the physical and mental fitness to do so is not negligible. I would like to think Stoner had more talent, and from my biased point of view was manouevered against after his 2 title wins, but he probably did have the equipment to win in 2012 despite said manouevers if he had maintained the inhuman focus of his title winning seasons. His riding style and the focus required for it was never going to be sustainable for 7 titles imo, and the focus issue applies even more so to other riders with less talent than him (most other riders imo of course) however good the equipment you gave them.

As I have said I agree with Povol, he is a great rider but not ahead of other great riders, and I am willing to listen to the argument made by either you or JPS that he is lesser than the likes of Hailwood who like Stoner but for much longer distinguished himself by being able to ride lesser equipment to wins, KRSR who was more revolutionary and managed to win as a rookie etc, and Wayne Rainey.

The best analogy I can come up with Rossi's 2001-2005 career is that it would be like a very talented major league baseball player being allowed to use an aluminum baseball bat instead of a wooden baseball bat like everyone else. It would be such an immensely unfair advantage that it would undermine the credibility of the sport as a whole even though those homeruns would all be counted as official. But then even after that period he was allowed to use it continually, only a few others managed to get some sort of hybrid aluminum/wooden bat to at least be able to compete.

But as I've mentioned, no great rider ever stuck around past the age of 34 in GP, and I don't believe longevity should be a qualifier to greatness, especially when such longevity was made possible by Dorna. Winning 7 titles in the fashion he won all of them (farcical) doesn't entitle one to keep riding for top teams. About the only thing it should guarantee is a spot at Goodwood and special old-timers events for years to come. Even more importantly is that on a 1:4 GP machine, finishing high in the championship is quite a reasonable proposition even at the age of 36 since he isn't broken down physically.
 
From my knowledge which granted isn't as great as most of the guys here, the thing that has stopped guys being competitive in their mid to late 30s is the fact most of the really good/great riders have retired due to injuries or the injuries have taken their toll on the their bodies. IMO Rossi has come a long at a great time, with the he advancement of nutrition and training, the better safety factors of leather and more importantly the bikes(largely due to the switch from 2 to 4 strokes and electronics) are less likely to buck riders off, also added are safer tracks with bigger run offs and no close walls anymore and it can't be fully discounted is Rossis ability to keel the bike upright it makes sense that he would have more longevity than guys in previous eras. I think he is likely the first in what will be a long list of riders who are able to remain competitive until their mid 30s. If both guys remain mostly injury free I expect Marquez and Lorenzo to do the same.
 
The best analogy I can come up with Rossi's 2001-2005 career is that it would be like a very talented major league baseball player being allowed to use an aluminum baseball bat instead of a wooden baseball bat like everyone else. It would be such an immensely unfair advantage that it would undermine the credibility of the sport as a whole even though those homeruns would all be counted as official. But then even after that period he was allowed to use it continually, only a few others managed to get some sort of hybrid aluminum/wooden bat to at least be able to compete.

But as I've mentioned, no great rider ever stuck around past the age of 34 in GP, and I don't believe longevity should be a qualifier to greatness, especially when such longevity was made possible by Dorna. Winning 7 titles in the fashion he won all of them (farcical) doesn't entitle one to keep riding for top teams. About the only thing it should guarantee is a spot at Goodwood and special old-timers events for years to come. Even more importantly is that on a 1:4 GP machine, finishing high in the championship is quite a reasonable proposition even at the age of 36 since he isn't broken down physically.
He beat Lorenzo in 2014, and beat MM and ran JL very close in 2015 when given that 1 in 4 chance however, and if 2015 was a bad year for MM because of bike problems or because he had the wrong approach then the same could be true of 2006, when Rossi still only lost by a handful of points in the end. I do agree and have posted myself that both 2006 and last season do seem to indicate that Rossi does feel the pressure when engaged in a close title battle, all of his wins being with comfortable or large margins.

One reason he has stuck around is that he has mostly been injury free, which it would seem likely is not entirely unrelated to his riding talent, and he did OK on a 500 in his rookie year on a bike still savage enough to cause Doohan to crash in a career ending fashion only one year before despite his experience with the bike, which obviously included winning the previous 5 titles on it. His first title was still on a 500 the following year of course.
 
It is likely a rider would be injury free if he knew going into the contest his bike and certainly his tires were superior to the other "competitors". It's why I wholeheartedly don't buy the assertion that Rossi had inferior competition during the SNS era. Frankly, Rossi never really had to push for most of his career. Ask John Hopkins about pushing a bike that's inferior to others. In a world where we judge the riders by "results" the pressure is massive on those running around on bikes they must over-ride. That's why I don't understand Mike why you repeatedly insist the titles " won" by Rossi wilst on 'performance enhancing tires' are valid (tires the Michelin lab decided who got).

When did Rossi suffer injury? When he actually needed to push against his rivals. It's been said Rossi crashed at Mugello injuring his leg because of pressure. Noteworthy, on tires that were working for his teammate. However, this has been rare during Rossi's career because whenever he didn't have an overwhelming advantage he threatened to quit, then got his way.

Rossi was seen regularly on the tarmac during his first year at Ducati. Then clearly we saw a change in his approach during the second year. It's as if he already knew the seat was being kept warm by Ben Spies (well, when he was on the seat and not skidding on the gravel because his bike broke in half). That second year Rossi didn't push, and it wasn't just mentioned by me, detractors, but by the media (as weak as they are). So I submit to you, Rossi has been fairly injury free because of the advantages he's had most of his career. We keep talking about how great he's doing, yet often he's the fourth fastest in a field of four, 3rd when Pedrosa was out with arm pump, though he seems to be MIA again). 5 points last year, yeah. Marquez spent the better part of the year on his ass. The point being, yes Rossi is a good rider, and a big part of his longevity is uncoincidental, there is a good reason for his artificially extended longevity! Rossi has had it ALL his way, and we're supposed to be impressed that he gets results and at his age? Well of course, that's what happens when you can command such extraordinary influence! Stress breaks down the body, the fact is Rossi's rivals have to deal with twice the stress.

That's what happens when:

When you can run a rider off the track and rather than be banned in disgrace, the opposite happens, your stock goes up.

When you begin to struggle with tires, and on the mere threat of quiting the entire sport moves to a single tire supplier.

When you express your displeasure at Race Direction, the organization makes a "new" one.

When you accuse a double world champ of cheating with utterly zero evidence to date, he gets jeered. Not only the accused cheater but the supposed recipient of the cheating gets openly disrespected.

When the gutless media of the sport fail repeatedly to call out the cause of such disrepute and disrespect, and in a press conference ask about the jeering but have no balls to specifically identify it's cause so as not to make the perpetrator uncomfortable. Then when that rider chickenshits out of answering the question, not one other "journalists" follows up with a pressing question.

When the IRTA president and MotoGP team boss (Herve Poncharal) calls this rider "Our Emporer".

When a rival manufacturer (Honda) calls a press conference to specifically release data that they claim points to the smoking gun, then are prohibited to release the data to appease the Emperor.

When caught on camera, he summons the CEO of the sport to HIS motorhome to discuss the supposed cheating he just witnessed in a race, then the video of this exchange becomes 'debatable'.

When after two years without a win, struggling to make the top ten, the organization brokers a deal to return him to one of the only four contending machines, so as to appease his threat of quiting.

When a Japanese manufacturer's management with a supposed high standard of "honor" allows their team principal (Lin Jarvis ) wilst wearing Yamaha logos to mount a cowardly verbal defense for the indefensible act of deliberately eliminating a fellow competitor in an act that put him in peril.

When given the chance vetoes a possible superior teammate or creates such a toxic environment that rivals retire and or leave the team.

And when all the .... that has happened behind closed doors for years, surely much more than what has slipped out in public, and more so when nobody was aware or when everyone was happy to let him influence all manner of advantages and preferences...

Then yes, we get a guy that is free of injury and has artificially extended longevity. That person will get "results". Is this a revelation? Hardly. Are those results skewed and inflated, yes, naturally.
 
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It is likely a rider would be injury free if he knew going into the contest his bike and certainly his tires were superior to the other "competitors". It's why I wholeheartedly don't buy the assertion that Rossi had inferior competition during the SNS era. Frankly, Rossi never really had to push for most of his career. Ask John Hopkins about pushing a bike that's inferior to others. In a world where we judge the riders by "results" the pressure is massive on those running around on bikes they must over-ride. That's why I don't understand Mike why you repeatedly insist the titles " won" by Rossi wilst on 'performance enhancing tires' are valid (tires the Michelin lab decided who got).

When did Rossi suffer injury? When he actually needed to push against his rivals. It's been said Rossi crashed at Mugello injuring his leg because of pressure. Noteworthy, on tires that were working for his teammate. However, this has been rare during Rossi's career because whenever he didn't have an overwhelming advantage he threatened to quit, then got his way.

Rossi was seen regularly on the tarmac during his first year at Ducati. Then clearly we saw a change in his approach during the second year. It's as if he already knew the seat was being kept warm by Ben Spies (well, when he was on the seat and not skidding on the gravel because his bike broke in half). That second year Rossi didn't push, and it wasn't just mentioned by me, detractors, but by the media (as weak as they are). So I submit to you, Rossi has been fairly injury free because of the advantages he's had most of his career. We keep talking about how great he's doing, yet often he's the fourth fastest in a field of four, 3rd when Pedrosa was out with arm pump, though he seems to be MIA again). 5 points last year, yeah. Marquez spent the better part of the year on his ass. The point being, yes Rossi is a good rider, and a big part of his longevity is uncoincidental, there is a good reason for his artificially extended longevity! Rossi has had it ALL his way, and we're supposed to be impressed that he gets results and at his age? Well of course, that's what happens when you can command such extraordinary influence! Stress breaks down the body, the fact is Rossi's rivals have to deal with twice the stress.

That's what happens when:

When you can run a rider off the track and rather than be banned in disgrace, the opposite happens, your stock goes up.

When you begin to struggle with tires, and on the mere threat of quiting the entire sport moves to a single tire supplier.

When you express your displeasure at Race Direction, the organization makes a "new" one.

When you accuse a double world champ of cheating with utterly zero evidence to date, he gets jeered. Not only the accused cheater but the supposed recipient of the cheating gets openly disrespected.

When the gutless media of the sport fail repeatedly to call out the cause of such disrepute and disrespect, and in a press conference ask about the jeering but have no balls to specifically identify it's cause so as not to make the perpetrator uncomfortable. Then when that rider chickenshits out of answering the question, not one other "journalists" follows up with a pressing question.

When the IRTA president and MotoGP team boss (Herve Poncharal) calls this rider "Our Emporer".

When a rival manufacturer (Honda) calls a press conference to specifically release data that they claim points to the smoking gun, then are prohibited to release the data to appease the Emperor.

When caught on camera, he summons the CEO of the sport to HIS motorhome to discuss the supposed cheating he just witnessed in a race, then the video of this exchange becomes 'debatable'.

When after two years without a win, struggling to make the top ten, the organization brokers a deal to return him to one of the only four contending machines, so as to appease his threat of quiting.

When a Japanese manufacturer's management with a supposed high standard of "honor" allows their team principal (Lin Jarvis ) wilst wearing Yamaha logos to mount a cowardly verbal defense for the indefensible act of deliberately eliminating a fellow competitor in an act that put him in peril.

When given the chance vetoes a possible superior teammate or creates such a toxic environment that rivals retire and or leave the team.

And when all the .... that has happened behind closed doors for years, surely much more than what has slipped out in public, and more so when nobody was aware or when everyone was happy to let him influence all manner of advantages and preferences...

Then yes, we get a guy that is free of injury and has artificially extended longevity. That person will get "results". Is this a revelation? Hardly. Are those results skewed and inflated, yes, naturally.
As you know I agree with everything in your post after "that's what happens when" and have made most of those arguments myself.

I simply don't agree Rossi was never any good though, and for me personally (not you, your view is obviously different) to argue so would mean descending to the level of fanaticism of the Rossi "boppers" who defend the many sins you have listed.

I hesitate to say this to you given you are better versed in debate and logical fallacies than I am, but to say you can only win on 4 bikes on the grid which has obviously been the case for a number of years now is to some extent a syllogism imo, because while being on those bikes is obviously a major advantage they have in recent years had 4 very good riders, and 3 (or all 4 in the rare periods Dani has full health and mojo) have to have an off day or bike problems for another rider to win a race; individual riders among the 4 can be and have been beaten by other riders. You can add Rossi ensuring the absence of a competitive rider on one of the 4 rides for a number of years to your litany of Rossi's sins if you want with no complaint from me, btw.

Nevertheless we do have examples of riders better than many being on one of the 4 bikes concerned and not winning overly much, Dovi in particular, but famously Mad Max in the past who got to ride for both marques, and to some extent Spies and even Edwards. I also believe, as I thought did you, that Stoner could probably win races on the current Ducati on favourable tracks, and imo MM could as well.

We also have many examples of good and great riders having crashes which threatened or ended careers and/or championship contention on HRC or Yamaha factory rides, including Wayne Rainey, Mick Doohan, Stoner at Indy 2012 and Lorenzo at Assen 2013, to say nothing of Dani Pedrosa, who has had so many crashes and injuries in the 10 years prior to this one, all on a factory Honda. Eddie Lawson on the other hand, more a Rossi style of rider imo (in view partly of what we are discussing perhaps better than him) had few crashes and no major injuries that I recall despite riding in the "golden age" when the 500s were at their most vicious.
 
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Surely given Rossis history there is no way he will be happy with Vinales going to Yamaha if Lorenzo is no longer there? If Yamaha is more worried about losing Rossi than Lorenzo no way they sign Vinaeles and risk a rerun of the Rossi/Lorenzo situation. I could see them signing Pedro as Rossi wouldn't see him as a season long threat.
 

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