Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Rossi was with Honda when the SNS system started. It would be hard for them to complain after being a beneficiary of the system.
Rossi was with Honda when the SNS system started. It would be hard for them to complain after being a beneficiary of the system.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
What a logic. If they were a main beneficiary of a system, and assumedly they were then excluded or got second choice after a certain rider had left them -- a possibility no one in his or her senses would believe for a moment, but let's assume for the sake of fiction -- why shouldn't they have demanded at least equal treatment? You bet they would, and would get what they wanted. We are speaking Factory Honda here, not Ducati or a satellite team.
So you have an issue with aging Luddites? Understandable in one digitally native such as you. I feel Mr Jobs and his successors share some of the blame however for inventing the IPhone, culminating in the IPhone 6, which allows a Luddite like me who is more or less professionally obliged to be obsessive about grammar and spelling to post quickly at coffee shops or in gaps at work, whilst not allowing me to see whole sentences let alone paragraphs on the small screen involved and quite often changing spelling and indeed words for non apparent reasons. I could once produce handwritten material in English reasonably competently, to the satisfaction of most English teachers anyway.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
They got the SNS, just not made to Pedrosa or Hayden preference. We are talking about an organization that brokered a deal for Rossi to receive Bridgestones while Pedrosa was told to .... off. They demanded equal treatment then and didnt get it.
Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
Without evidence it can only be regarded as hearsay that only VR benefited from those tyres, I believe nothing until I see proof positive.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
The SNSs are not a secret thing bandied about by conspiracists. It was done all out in the open. It was not illegal in it's time. It's as well documented as the the Moon Landing and 9/11. If you'd been following Moto GP prior to the introduction of the control tire - you would know this. Like I said, it wasn't a big secret. People talked about it freely all the time.
I've never been off the surface of this planet and seen it with my own eyes - so I cannot personally confirm that the earth is not flat - but I've seen enough film footage over the years to grant that it's pretty damned plausible.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
And how the heck do you know that the blessed SNS's were made to a certain rider's preference? And not made to suit a certain bike's characteristics for instance, which would be certainly easier? Or made as a more generic Honda-Yamaha compromise, which would make a lot of business sense for Michelin, to keep their two major customers happy?
And if these blessed SNS's were supposed to be made only for one rider, how come that Elias is said to have received SNS's in 2006 in his only GP win when he even beat Rossi thanks to them (to be honest Rossi's tires were completely destroyed at the end of that race, and I believe that's why he lost to Elias); however it is your conspiracy narrative that says he won because he somehow had got "Rossi's tires", so it is up you to to make sense of that -- if you can...).
Last but not least, I do remember Pedrosa getting the Bridgestones mid-season (an even more difficult feat than Rossi's), and he got them precisely when Honda decided to back his request. Even Rossi wouldn't have got them without Yamaha's backing, of course.
Imho all your conspiracy theory is just that, a theory. You may have repeated your assumptions so much that now you really believe them to be facts, but they are not.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Not said to, did receive a set that Pedrosa tossed because he couldnt ride them. The Rossi tires were better than the alternative, but on this day Pedrosa rode tires of the rack because the Rossi specific tires were not working for him. Just so happens the Rossi tires fit Elias style and he won the only race in his career, ironically costing Rossi the title. Karma ........ And it wasnt mid season that Pedrosa was allowed finally to get Bridgestones, there was only 4-5 races left. They had to make sure Rossi had the title wrapped up.
That's the thing. Michelin being engaged in a tyre war were not very forthcoming in regard to details of the tyres and how they were produced, but there is absolutely no doubt they existed including contemporary footage of the tyres being delivered by Michelin vans/trucks. There are also contemporary accounts by people in a position to be informed like Colin Edwards that Rossi's input was significant in their production.
That said, while they were an accepted part of the scene, the narrative that they are responsible for Rossi's titles is mainly a latter day one imo. Babelfish, one of the posters from the old days I most miss, argued they were a de facto control tyre for all the main competitors, and certainly I don't recall Biaggi or Gibernau ever complaining as has recently been said and as I have said on several occasions previously. I even have a vague recollection of Rossi being unhappy towards the end of the race day tyre era because the tyres were being tailored more to suit the Hondas, and as J4rn0 says however influential Rossi is, Honda who are presumably in control of which tyres are fitted to their new bikes and cars would seem likely to be at least potentially rather more influential.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
A little something i dug up from 2007
With his world championship goal edging closer, Casey Stoner is urging MotoGP officials to resist the latest attempt by superstar rival Valentino Rossi to change the tyre regulations.
With six wins out of 11 races, Stoner believes the new 2007 tyre rules have created a level playing field and that Rossi is now searching for excuses.
In the wake of his crushing defeat at the hands of Stoner and Ducati at the US Grand Prix, Rossi has complained the tyre rules are spoiling the championship show.
Rossi was a distant fourth in California and slipped 44 points behind Stoner with seven races remaining.
Using French Michelin tyres, Rossi's Yamaha has won three races this season while Stoner, with Bridgestone tyres from Japan, has won six times.
"At the beginning of the season Valentino and the others were all for the new tyre rules," said Stoner who earlier finished fifth in Germany because of tyre problems.
"And as soon as they don't win the rule is crap, but when they win the rule is nothing.
"I've had my bad races this year, especially in Germany, and I'm not complaining about the tyre rule and that it is unfair.
"They can moan and whinge about it as much as they want but it shows they have had such an advantage in the past and this season they cannot bring a tyre in just for the race.
"It's a matter of relying on the company that supports you to do a good job."
Rossi said after his defeat in America he would consider proposing changes to the tyre regulations.
Under 2007 restrictions, Michelin are unable to bring in hand-made tyres overnight from their factory and all riders are restricted to 17 nominated rear tyres for each race weekend.
"This rule is not good and we need more tyres," Rossi said.
"The problem is for the show because at the end it is the tyre that decides the race."
Until this year Michelin had dominated MotoGP competition with Rossi winning five world championships and 61 races.
However Rossi's famed crew chief, the Adelaide-based engineer Jerry Burgess with 12 world championships to his credit, agrees with Stoner.
"The tyre rule has not been the main reason for Valentino not winning races this season, Burgess said.
"I like the rule, it's equal for everyone and think it should stay."
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Moto GP banned SNS after 2006. After the Elias incident, more and more riders were screaming for equality after they saw what difference it made. Rossi went along with banning them because he didnt want the entire field on them, remember back then, satellite bikes were winning races. Roll forward to 2007, Stoner is kicking Rossi's ... on Bridgestones and he isnt liking it one bit , because, you know, it was ....... up the show. The show was Rossi winning and Dorna agreed, forcing Bridgestone to supply Rossi in 2008 against their will. Hows that for painting a picture J4rno, sounds less and less conspiratorial all the time huh
With his world championship goal edging closer, Casey Stoner is urging MotoGP officials to resist the latest attempt by superstar rival Valentino Rossi to change the tyre regulations.
With six wins out of 11 races, Stoner believes the new 2007 tyre rules have created a level playing field and that Rossi is now searching for excuses.
In the wake of his crushing defeat at the hands of Stoner and Ducati at the US Grand Prix, Rossi has complained the tyre rules are spoiling the championship show.
Rossi was a distant fourth in California and slipped 44 points behind Stoner with seven races remaining.
Using French Michelin tyres, Rossi's Yamaha has won three races this season while Stoner, with Bridgestone tyres from Japan, has won six times.
"At the beginning of the season Valentino and the others were all for the new tyre rules," said Stoner who earlier finished fifth in Germany because of tyre problems.
"And as soon as they don't win the rule is crap, but when they win the rule is nothing.
"I've had my bad races this year, especially in Germany, and I'm not complaining about the tyre rule and that it is unfair.
"They can moan and whinge about it as much as they want but it shows they have had such an advantage in the past and this season they cannot bring a tyre in just for the race.
"It's a matter of relying on the company that supports you to do a good job."
Rossi said after his defeat in America he would consider proposing changes to the tyre regulations.
Under 2007 restrictions, Michelin are unable to bring in hand-made tyres overnight from their factory and all riders are restricted to 17 nominated rear tyres for each race weekend.
"This rule is not good and we need more tyres," Rossi said.
"The problem is for the show because at the end it is the tyre that decides the race."
Until this year Michelin had dominated MotoGP competition with Rossi winning five world championships and 61 races.
However Rossi's famed crew chief, the Adelaide-based engineer Jerry Burgess with 12 world championships to his credit, agrees with Stoner.
"The tyre rule has not been the main reason for Valentino not winning races this season, Burgess said.
"I like the rule, it's equal for everyone and think it should stay."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moto GP banned SNS after 2006. After the Elias incident, more and more riders were screaming for equality after they saw what difference it made. Rossi went along with banning them because he didnt want the entire field on them, remember back then, satellite bikes were winning races. Roll forward to 2007, Stoner is kicking Rossi's ... on Bridgestones and he isnt liking it one bit , because, you know, it was ....... up the show. The show was Rossi winning and Dorna agreed, forcing Bridgestone to supply Rossi in 2008 against their will. Hows that for painting a picture J4rno, sounds less and less conspiratorial all the time huh
Whatever floats your boat, but decrying old fogeys for thinking they have a superior perspective in a post where you proclaim your own superior perspective seems a trifle inconsistent.
I stand to be corrected, but have always assumed "fan" was an abbreviation of fanatic, and wouldn't have thought anyone should be particularly surprised at the the anorak-wearing trainspotting element among followers of a sport or other pastime congregating on a fan forum.
I don't think it is particularly praiseworthy to have knowledge of trivia related to the sport, but I don't think most of the people you refer to, presumably including me, have really volitionally "gathered" such trivial knowledge, but rather have just followed the sport keenly for a long time and remember things, hardly blameworthy either I wouldn't have thought.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
"It just so happens...", great.
This way one can "explain" anything and the opposite of anything, but that's convenient isn't it. All the underlined part is a good example of it. Not your fault, -- I asked for it.
I see (bold part) that you keep pushing assumptions as facts... Oh well, excuse me, but I find this insistence on assumptions that cannot be proved very boring. Nothing personal.
I do think the discontinuation of the tyres was significantly related to the expense of providing them, with Michelin not travelling well as a corporate entity at the time, and when I googled for some supporting evidence of my memories of the 'overnight special' tyre era the other week I did find a Michelin press release to the effect that they were involved in and approved of the changes to how tyres were to be provided in 2007, the previous process having become ruinously expensive.
I recall it being said Rossi was in agreement with the 2007 changes as well. My personal theory however is that no-one including him appreciated how much Michelin's prior dominance was dependent on the race day tyres, or that Bridgestone had been developing their tyres apace and were much better suited to the new tyre order given this was the situation they had always been in except perhaps for the odd Asian round.
(EDIT Thanks Pov. Didn't catch the Stoner/Burgess quotes you posted when I read your post previously quickly on my IPhone, and don't think I saw them in 2007 either. Very interesting.)
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Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
If Ducati had of got their man Melandri on board in 2007 like they wanted how many races do you think Bridgestone runners would have won? Certainly it may have been more than the usual 2-3 races but likely not enough to make Rossi jump.
Sure, he certainly wouldn't have been changing because of Melandri's results on a 2007 Ducati, and Michelin runners did finish 2nd and 3rd in 2007.
2008 is the year where I personally am willing to consider tyre conspiracies, not so much because Rossi ended up on Bridgestones although the process by which that occurred may be questionable, but the 2007 tyre which particularly suited them being possibly taken away from Stoner/Ducati, although hard evidence for this seems scarce.
I have no problem admitting that Rossi came out very focused in 2008 having pushed development of the pneumatic valve engine in late 2007, and that he rode at an extremely high level all of that year. Ducati had other problems as well, and eventually had to return to the 2007 engine after a mechanical DNF for Stoner.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
The logical explanation of 2008 was an early introduction of a spec tyre or more specifically a one size fits all tyre, which we know DORNA and therefore most likely Rossi wanted for 2009.
Bridgestone had previously said they wanted to remain with the same teams as in 2007, they were working closely in developing the tyres for these teams and so didn't want the Michelin runners jumping over to them as well because they didn't have the capacity to make specific tyres for every team out there. That's why both Michelin and Bridgestone were vocal supporters of the tire war continuing, evenly split. That was simply the most cost effective way to develop, likely something Lex would have figured as well. Too many teams with either meant escalating costs and once again the tier system would raise its ugly head. DORNA by the way didn't even want one single team on Michelin, once Rossi had left
When Rossi initially switched Bridgestone were under immediate pressure to produce a tyre he liked. Failure to do so would mean much bad press. Obviously this took resources away from the other teams including Ducati, the most original design out there. Finding the new development going away from them, Ducati started 08 on old 07 spec rubber which was competitive enough. By mid 08 the 07 Ducati spec was used and Bridgestone, having already speant plenty of the budget on Rossi and now faced with Pedrosa screaming and about to switch also, basically said it was going to be a one construction fits all, the the Ducati being the most idiosyncratic design there immediately suffered the most, apparent by the number of sudden front end loses Stoner experienced in the later half of 2008 compared to 07.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Don't forget that Ducati was game to switch to Michelin after Bridgedtone moved development towards the Yamaha and Dorna squashed that. Ducati wanted a tire manufacturer that had them n mind and not Rossi. They spent years and millions of dollars developing bike to tire only to see Rossi and Dorna steal those years overnight.
Just read your stuff about what Stoner and Burgess said in 2007 which I don't recall seeing at the time. Very interesting.
Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
I knew about the overnight specials, I dispute that only Rossi had exclusive use of them, I've followed GP since the days of Barry Sheene.
Not one person has said that Rossi has exclusive use of the SNS
What is being said is that the SNS were developed around one man and then made available to others. It just so happened that one of those riders, Tony Elias could make exceptional use of the tyres with his only race on them, and subsequently that race likely was the pivotal moment in the 2006 championship
There is a significant difference between who they may have been developed around (or based on data supplied) and to whom they were made available
That said, in my world I suspect that there may have been 2 tiers and 2 riders who drove development of the SNS, each based on their own needs
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