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Rossi the next Melandri??

A

alex29

Joined Jul 2007
872 Posts | 0+
NSW, Australia
Is Rossi going to be the next Melandri at ducati?? I read an interesting article few weeks ago (sorry no link) re this topic. The desmosedici is a unique beast, can rossi and jb make it work for them?? Setting the 10th & 15th times at valencia test being 1.6 seconds of the pace seems a little worrying. Blame the shoulder? lets not forget rossi's awesome ride at sepang a few rounds earlier so i'm not really convinced the shoulder that much of a problem. This reminds me of Melandri's 1st outing on the ducati, where things went from bad to worse.



For ....'S SAKE dont want this to turn into a .... bopperthon thread, just a 'genuine discussion'
 
Yeah that's an interesting thought that really hasn't been discussed here much . Im glad you started a thread with a fresh, new perspective on the whole Rossi situation.
 
on the current bike ... iwthout a doubt YES.



however ducati will most likely build a new bike from the GROUND up. even if it means going against everything that is ducati and producing a replica yahama....
 
Oniker said:
Is Rossi going to be the next Melandri at ducati?? I read an interesting article few weeks ago (sorry no link) re this topic. The desmosedici is a unique beast, can rossi and jb make it work for them?? Setting the 10th & 15th times at valencia test being 1.6 seconds of the pace seems a little worrying. Blame the shoulder? lets not forget rossi's awesome ride at sepang a few rounds earlier so i'm not really convinced the shoulder that much of a problem. This reminds me of Melandri's 1st outing on the ducati, where things went from bad to worse.



For ....'S SAKE dont want this to turn into a .... bopperthon thread, just a 'genuine discussion'
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The difference is that melandri was fully fit for his first ducati test, and also had a past record of not adapting to a bike and arguably a record of not toughing it out previously when he was on a yamaha; none of which are true of rossi. I think where melandri is concerned it could be argued that in the premier class he was only suited to the honda 990 and hayate , since he didn't do well for gresini on the 800 either. I am not an adherent to dubbing people boppers, but I think I can safely say that I am not someone who anybody would call a rossi bopper, so I could perhaps also point out that valentino has won 7 premier class titles and marco none.



As I said in another thread though one conclusion which can be drawn from the valencia test is that the ducati is a difficult and idiosyncratic bike; apart from anything else jb said so, or at least that it was difficult anyway. I think there is also a contrast with the yamaha superbike, on which despite his shoulder injury and his tibial fracture being very recent rossi was immediately fast and also rapidly able to improve the bike.
 
i couldn't agree more michaelm , also melandri is not in the same league as rossi , just look at randy de puniet ,he's coming from a broken leg and was able to do some decent lap times, rossi will adapt to the desmo for sure!
 
http://motomatters.com/news/2010/11/18/marco_melandri_i_had_the_same_problems_a.html



Melandri noted. "I don't know whether he will manage to change the situation," Melandri told Motosprint, "but he has the means to do it. I'm not convinced that he will succeed, however."



Can't compare Marco to Vale. They are from Italy and ride motorcycles and thats it.



I think it has a lot to do with hearth and a mind. This is the difference between atletes in almost every sport. They are all amazing, but a few steps out. I study sport and this just my theory.



Pshihology will be the key here... but i think Vale is the best at it and im not worried about his succes.



It doesnt matter how fast is your bike if you have issues...you will fall or make more mistakes. Its very hard to be that good. Lorenzo is the greatest enemy of Vale...and Vale did the right thing to leave. He will be even faster at Ducati...and Yamaha will start to lose there advantage. And i think that Spies will be better on 1000cc ( cant wait for that to) ... Lorenzo's big test is just comming.



I fell in love in motogp becouse of vale (1997)... he was my idol. I watched motogp before but not so much. Vale was in 2005 time not good anymore for motogp so i became a fan of others to. I hoped they would make it... I like Hayden im a fan from 2005 and i just knew Stoner has it in 2006. I was happy but not so much becouse Rossi had alot of problems...but it was good for motogp.And from mid 2007 begin to support Vale again.i like Spies very much, Edwards....but i really didnt like Biaggi and now Lorenzo. I love motogp and thats it.



I just hope that we can have 3-4 amazing years with Vale and he can be once more a champion and get his 123 victorys... he deserve it for what he is done. Ty
 
There are various sides to this argument. Whether Rossi will adapt, whether Ducati can change the bike to turn better/better front end feel, and whether Rossi should have stayed at Yamaha (not much discussion on this one). I believe Rossi should have stayed for one more healthy year and moved on. Why? Because he would put the all doubts/naysayers to silence. Lorenzo and Rossi on the exact same bike and tyres for an entire season, who is the best? We still don't know. As far as The Ducati goes, Rossi has a two year contract for them to get it right. The expectations are unusually high. The reasonable school of thought is that 2011 is a learning/development year. 2012 is the year to note. Even in 2012 the argument will be who got the bike development right and not about the rider as much. The one thing that this evident is that if Ducati doesn't get off of their butts and make a better handling bike, Casey Stoner will win his second championship. I do not see Lorenzo winning the championship again next year if Casey is consistent. The Honda is extremely fast and handles like a dream. Couple that with the fact that Casey is the fastest man on two wheels when he is not losing the front and next year will be a sight to behold. If memory serves me, Ducati does not develop as rapidly throughout the season does the Honda/Yamaha. Thus if Ducati doesn't get it right quickly, there will be a big mountain to climb next season that may not be solved. All in all, I am looking forward to seeing Ducati/Rossi, Stoner/Honda Lorenzo/Yamaha and then the rest of the chasing pack:Spies,Pedrosa, Dovi and Hayden.
 
Duc999 said:
There are various sides to this argument. Whether Rossi will adapt, whether Ducati can change the bike to turn better/better front end feel, and whether Rossi should have stayed at Yamaha (not much discussion on this one). I believe Rossi should have stayed for one more healthy year and moved on. Why? Because he would put the all doubts/naysayers to silence. Lorenzo and Rossi on the exact same bike and tyres for an entire season, who is the best? We still don't know. As far as The Ducati goes, Rossi has a two year contract for them to get it right. The expectations are unusually high. The reasonable school of thought is that 2011 is a learning/development year. 2012 is the year to note. Even in 2012 the argument will be who got the bike development right and not about the rider as much. The one thing that this evident is that if Ducati doesn't get off of their butts and make a better handling bike, Casey Stoner will win his second championship. I do not see Lorenzo winning the championship again next year if Casey is consistent. The Honda is extremely fast and handles like a dream. Couple that with the fact that Casey is the fastest man on two wheels when he is not losing the front and next year will be a sight to behold. If memory serves me, Ducati does not develop as rapidly throughout the season does the Honda/Yamaha. Thus if Ducati doesn't get it right quickly, there will be a big mountain to climb next season that may not be solved. All in all, I am looking forward to seeing Ducati/Rossi, Stoner/Honda Lorenzo/Yamaha and then the rest of the chasing pack:Spies,Pedrosa, Dovi and Hayden.
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2011 will be a trial year for Rossi. I would expect he will be on the podium and may win a few races toward the end of season in his favorite tracks like Sepang and Immola.

I don't see he can win back to back in 2011 and in 2012 Rossi should be able to fight for the world title again if he do not get himself injured
 
McKneZ said:
http://motomatters.c...problems_a.html



Can't compare Marco to Vale. They are from Italy and ride motorcycles and thats it.
Click to expand...



McKneZ summed this debate up in that one sentence. Spot on.

Trying to find any more similarities than that is pointless.

Melandri was (or Is, depending on your point of view) a great rider, but he never came close to Rossi.

Even the relationship is different between rider and factory. When Melandri rode for Ducati, they sent him to a shrink, convinced the problem was in his head, refusing to believe it was the bike.

Now Ducati will bend over backwards to accommodate Rossi and build him a bike that he (And hopefully other riders) can win on.
 
I think Ihave braced many of the points this topic brings up in the past. My current stance is:



Rossi, Melandri and Elias where/are riders of very simillar "on bike" abilities.



Rossi has an "organisational" ability that allows him to surpass Elias and Melandri.

( We saw Elias in a mode/situation that allowed him to circumvent much of the need for that in 2010 ) and we saw Elias "the rider".



Melandri knows the above, and some folk are also aware of the pertinence of the Melandri v's Rossi v's Ducati equation, hence Melandri was approached in order to throw light on "what could be".



The one thing Melandri doesn't have, is JB. I'm not saying JB will get Rossi out of this situation, but in his past he has proven to be the best guy to have in such a situation.



The big questions for 2011 then are:



Can JB do it? Remembering he is "getting on" ( I've never seen him look more "disheveled" as at the Valencia test
<
)



Can Ducati do it ? This is the real problem to me, as in the past they have not had a great history at building on a good thing. Indeed it could be said that some of their actions did nothing but undermine "a good thing". Ducati indeed wanted more cred for Stoners 2007 WC, and given the way they "scored" Stoner in 06, they may indeed have misnterpretted the hiring of Stoner a tad too much in the favour of their own genius, and ot Stoner's skill. These were questions behind the whole "its not the Ducati, its Stoner" talk that was flying around the paddock, and anywhere other than the Boppers. Ducati are still stuck trying to disprove that, and in doing so the evntual outcome f such an endeavour has come to fruition ......... Stoner has walked.



In hiring Rossi I think Ducati are still stuck in the mode of trying to prove " No! No!, others can win its not just Stoner .... ".



Rossi has never been a great adapter, he always takes a time to have the bike adapted closer to him. He has been a competitor that thrives when things are above a threshold but when things go below a threshold he is affected ( eg. Rossi's mindset around Laguna 07, and around round 2 and 3 in 2010 ).



I think Melandri also knows Rossi and knows the "threshold of goodness" thing with him too. JB and his ability and Ducati's willingness to change remains the inputs that will keep Rossi above that "thresholdof goodness", failing them doing that, its going to enter into a Melandri/Ducati relationship, but I believe Rossi won't try and stay in MGP thereafter.



These will probably be background stories in 2010, but it sure will be good to have the more answers to the whole saga.
 
[font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"]I'm just going to rely on my absolute faith that Rossi can do no wrong and will prevail.[/font]

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[font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"][/font][font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"]...Too much ?

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Oniker said:
Is Rossi going to be the next Melandri at ducati?? I read an interesting article few weeks ago (sorry no link) re this topic. The desmosedici is a unique beast, can rossi and jb make it work for them?? Setting the 10th & 15th times at valencia test being 1.6 seconds of the pace seems a little worrying. Blame the shoulder? lets not forget rossi's awesome ride at sepang a few rounds earlier so i'm not really convinced the shoulder that much of a problem. This reminds me of Melandri's 1st outing on the ducati, where things went from bad to worse.



For ....'S SAKE dont want this to turn into a .... bopperthon thread, just a 'genuine discussion'
Click to expand...



Of course Rossi being slower than De Puniet (both coming from a history of only Jap bikes) and having essentially the same pace as rookie Karel Abraham, is something that is noteworthy and not promising.



The shoulder etc. cannot be a main factor, as the shoulder had not prevented Rossi to podium on 'his' Yamaha 2 days earlier.



As Nicky Hayden said, the Ducati becomes easier the faster you go. And you have to go fast without hesitations. If you try to ride it slowly, increasing speed only gradually, it simply doesn't work. Rossi surely can understand that, but even knowing it he did not find enough confidence to push, so he went slowly (relatively -- 1.33.7 was also his best time in FP1 during the race weekend).



He and Burgess gave indications to Ducati that should allow Rossi to feel confident enough, next time, to push and break into the 'fast zone' of the Ducati. Only then the real testing will begin. So it's all postponed to Sepang.



Not much else to say. Rossi like Melandri? Has Rossi ever been like Melandri?
wink.gif
 
BarryMachine said:
I think Ihave braced many of the points this topic brings up in the past. My current stance is:



Rossi, Melandri and Elias where/are riders of very simillar "on bike" abilities.
Click to expand...

Apart from rossi having 7 premier class world titles on 4 different bikes, 9 world championships in total on 6 different bikes, 15 times or so more premier class race wins, and never having been anything but fast ultimately on any bike he has ever ridden, there are great similarities with marco melandri, and an obvious similar lack of adaptability .



The ducati may well prove more difficult for him than previous bikes at least initially because it is or has been a difficult bike, but not because he has similar on bike abilities to marco melandri.
 
The main difference between Melandri and Rossi is mental. In fact the main difference between all the riders on the grid is mental. They are all capable of riding a bike fast physically so besides a few neurological differences such as reflexes etc their physical characteristics is not what sets the riders apart.



Winning the WC's that Rossi has and commanding the off track clout that he does shows a human being that has phenomenal mental and emotional capacity. It is my opinion that Melandri had only a fraction of Rossi's capacity in this area.



9 WC's, a lack of injuries, a massive fan base and the sports governance being right behind him through much of his career has all contributed along with his natural strength to make Rossi what he is today. Until recently none of these components have been challenged. But with 2 somewhat serious injuries this season along with the challenge to his authority, Rossi could well find himself in a place that is not at all familiar to him. I think that if Rossi was to suffer a fall or two with some minor injuries during testing on a bike that he doesn't feel comfortable on then we could see Rossi lose some of that invincibility that he has and perhaps become more like Melandri.



Of course it could just as easily go the other way. He could come out at the next test feeling strong and just throw caution to the wind and nail some fast laps which would just fuel his massive mental capacity and confidence and make him completely untouchable.



Has a test ever been more important for a rider than the next one is for Rossi?
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Of course it could just as easily go the other way. He could come out at the next test feeling strong and just throw caution to the wind and nail some fast laps which would just fuel his massive mental capacity and confidence and make him completely untouchable.



If he gets to that stage then we will see if the front end was really a problem. And they will only be ableto test it when Rossi does push it to the limit.



Has a test ever been more important for a rider than the next one is for Rossi?



Yes, his first test was the most important/ The next test will merely be confirmation of whether they have fixed the problems hopefully identified in Valencia. They haven't got much time after the next test to do much, so if they fail to fix the Valencia problems ...... they are way behind.
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SprogTheDog said:
[font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"]I'm just going to rely on my absolute faith that Rossi can do no wrong and will prevail.[/font]

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[font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"][/font][font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"]...Too much ?

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No point in asking a Nazi ,is there ?
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J4rn0 said:
He and Burgess gave indications to Ducati that should allow Rossi to feel confident enough, next time, to push and break into the 'fast zone' of the Ducati.
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This is a fairly critical bit, where are these indications and where are the articles saying that JB/Rossi have expressed this?
 
Mental Anarchist said:
The main difference between Melandri and Rossi is mental.
Click to expand...



No doubt Rossi's mental fortitude is far greater than Melandri's, but more importantly, Ducati will not tell Rossi to go see a sports psychologist if he is slow. Ducati have already committed the resources and manpower at Corse to build numerous developments until they have a better "all around" bike that suits Rossi.



I voted that Rossi will not win a race in 2011 b/c I'm unconvinced that the Rossi/Ducati marriage will be fruitful for either party in the 800cc era. Rossi may have Melandri-esque results on occasion, but it won't be for the same reason. I suspect he will have so many options, that exploring them all will lead to the same inconsistency he has displayed during the second half of 2010.
 

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