Rossi on a Ducati, WHne will they win?

To the last two replies..........I think they are letting JB have free run on things, and are listening.



They would have to...........it's been a pile of .... for too long !!!...........and he( JB ) has such a reputation and standing, that if they didn't listen, and the bike stayed ...........he would have no qualms in letting the world know why things didn't pan out . ( what's JB got to lose by spilling the beans ?..........)





Rossi won't win this year...........and I think it's got little to do with our "Who's better, Who's best" discussions here.



Put yourself in his ( or if you can't do that..similar ones will do) shoes. If he goes nuts on it..........he will bin it, just like Stoner has......probably hurt himself, and have the world calling him an ....., as he has more experience and should be smarter.



If he does as he does now..........well, everyone will call him a has been...should retire.....whatever.



Catch 22..........Maybe that's why he looks so dejected this year.



Damned if he does, Damned if he don't



Disclaimer I AM NOT A ROSSI FAN.



however.......something that blew me away , when pointed out by Daryl Beattie, is that when Rossi broke his leg last year.......that is the first time he has missed a race in 14 years through injury. That is not to say he hasn't ridden with injury...........



Pedrobot and a few others could learn from that.



Edwards and Crutchlow,........you're excused......



That is as amazing as all the other records he holds.......if not more so.



Good luck JB.......and here's to a fuller, more competetive grid for next year.

Nino said:

At the end of the day it's a fact. Imagine the hysteria on here if Rossi crashed five times in races this season - you wouldn't hear the end of it. Yeah he's not having a great season, a fact that is being rejoiced on here and Crash.net. Why? Because when you've had the kind of success Rossi has had it causes envy, envy turns into hate, and haters are the end result.

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It is also a fact that stoner has won 23 of the 30 races ducati has won in motogp, and their 2 best season results including their only championship, so his "win it or bin it" strategy strangely seems to have worked better than all of the other presumably by your argument better/more astute riders who have ridden for them including valentino rossi thus far.



As I have said to you previously, it might be a good idea to wait till rossi fixes the thing without a significant re-design before criticising stoner for not fixing it, for all your assertions that it is obvious that rossi will fix it he shows few signs of doing so at present. Similarly whilst stoner fans need to wait the whole season before saying rossi can't win on the ducati, you need to wait the whole season before proclaiming rossi's strategy to be superior. If he finishes 4th as stoner did last year but on the basis of consistent high midfield placings with no wins, it will be a point open to discussion which is the superior result; most including I suspect rossi and ducati would prefer the race wins.



You can't be blamed for what was said on this forum and elsewhere by people other than you, but the hating argument to non-members of the "mindless zombie rossi cult" as someone, I think keshav or povol, recently put it is exactly the reverse, with massive hatred of stoner for the crime of actually defeating rossi in the world championship in 2007, and "vicious gloating" as geonard puts it during stoner's health etc travails in 2009. This doesn't justify current unreasonable criticism of rossi and ridiculous attempts to detract from his amazing achievements, but you reap what you sow.

Nino said:

You mean the year when the Ducati had significantly more straight-line speed than the rest of the field?

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You seem to have a short attention span. This argument didn't work very well for you previously, you don't appear to be able to come up with any new ones, and I don't think anybody can be bothered going through the whole chain of logic again. But for something topical which has occurred since you were shot down previously, carlos checa didn't appear to have great difficulty in beating max biaggi on the aprilia in 2 races on the week-end.

As someone who didn't hate Stoner for beating Rossi in 07, the 23 out of 30 is to be expected when,



1) You have the Talent that he does



2) you ride it longer than anyother one person.



Rossi won't do anything this year......they are hardly trying to do anything with this bike now.......it's all about 2012. I don't mean Rossi isn't trying......rather factory input into a bike ( and engine capacity) that will be null and void next year.



I think Rossi is doing as well as Stoner in the last two seasons on that ....-box, the thing that makes him look worse than what Stoner did on it is,



1) the Yamaha is still a better bike



2) The Honda is probably the bike it was last season, and maybe the season before......but now it's got Stoner on it......and if you could ride the Duck like he did ( and Rossi)..then to someone of his ability.......riding the Honda must seem like a piece of piss.



3) the Duck is still the same piece of ...., and Rossi will be damned if he does, and damned if he don't.



disclaimer; I AM NEITHER A ROSSI OR STONER FAN

Does no one look at statistics?



Qatar this year rossi completed the same amount of laps faster than stoner did the year before (the portion of the race that stoner completed before throwing it down the road)



And the projected race completion time of stoner for 2010 was slower than rossi's race time for 2011.



Yes i understand projected time doesnt mean as much as an actual completed time but its something.



Also neither a rossi or stoner fan

Torgo said:

What I'm curious about is if Rossi and JB are trying to do a total makeover of the Duke. Not just do the best of what they've got, or try to adapt Rossis riding style to the bike, but instead make the bike into at more forgiving package that works better not just for Rossi but for the other riders as well.



It could be that they are making such drastic changes, on purpose, that what we saw this weekend was something we might expect for a few races until they've had the chance to do more laps and can find what the heck is so fcked up with the bike.



And if the end result will be a bike that's rideable for more than just one person the effort might be worth it (and no doubt Rossi will be labeled a development genius again)



Perhaps I'm Captain Obvious here, but I don't have the insight into what happens behind the scene in the paddock, like some people here seems to have, so I'm just guessing and would like to know what you think.





(I'm a Stoner fan, but have the highest respect for Rossi and JB and what they can accomplish)





(and I'm from Sweeeeeden so pardon my grammar/spelling

)

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Sure, if ducati have gone in a radically wrong direction with the bike, which would not seem to be an unreasonable conclusion, radical change may be needed to fix it. I have little doubt that rossi and jb will eventually come up with something good, even if it is not till next season. I regard the "develop for others" thing as an exercise in justification by those who propound it though, rossi like everyone has always developed for himself as is not unreasonable ; ask jorge lorenzo. If he does develop a good bike it will very likely suit others as you say and as his history attests.



What annoys me and I suspect others are attempts to blame stoner rather than ducati for any fault the bike might have, particularly since ducati made a deliberate decision to move development in a direction away from his preferences in 2010 which is when the bike became truly diabolical. I find it hard to believe he designed the carbon fibre engine integral chassis, the screamer engine worked perfectly well for him but they changed to the big-bang engine supposedly to make the bike more ridable for others, the L4 configuration of the ducati engine is a long-term ducati design, even the extreme power delivery etc characteristics of the engine which rossi has identified as a problem probably pre-dated stoner, ducati having been lucky to find a rider in stoner who could employ it.

Yep............well said.

Baffy said:

Does no one look at statistics?



Qatar this year rossi completed the same amount of laps faster than stoner did the year before (the portion of the race that stoner completed before throwing it down the road)



And the projected race completion time of stoner for 2010 was slower than rossi's race time for 2011.



Yes i understand projected time doesnt mean as much as an actual completed time but its something.



Also neither a rossi or stoner fan

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Does it not occur to you that if that was abnormal, we would be seeing lap times the same as in 1949



Its called progress, rarely do times get less.



Unfortunately for Rossi he has not progressed enough, or as much as the others have.

michaelm said:

Sure, if ducati have gone in a radically wrong direction with the bike, which would not seem to be an unreasonable conclusion, radical change may be needed to fix it. I have little doubt that rossi and jb will eventually come up with something good, even if it is not till next season. I regard the "develop for others" thing as an exercise in justification by those who propound it though, rossi like everyone has always developed for himself as is not unreasonable ; ask jorge lorenzo. If he does develop a good bike it will very likely suit others as you say and as his history attests.



What annoys me and I suspect others are attempts to blame stoner rather than ducati for any fault the bike might have, particularly since ducati made a deliberate decision to move development in a direction away from his preferences in 2010 which is when the bike became truly diabolical. I find it hard to believe he designed the carbon fibre engine integral chassis, the screamer engine worked perfectly well for him but they changed to the big-bang engine supposedly to make the bike more ridable for others, the L4 configuration of the ducati engine is a long-term ducati design, even the extreme power delivery etc characteristics of the engine which rossi has identified as a problem probably pre-dated stoner, ducati having been lucky to find a rider in stoner who could employ it.

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The Ducati/Stoner combination picked up at Aragon ...... the mods carried out just prior to that would be worthy of evolving.

Ha ha yes i understand that barry, but the Duc didnt exactly get much development over the off season.



Tires will have improved but people saying that Rossi isnt trying hard enough i find unfair.

you mean the bike has not progressed.........no-one can polish a turd.Not even JB,....... or Stoner last season, or the one before that.



What has changed ? Not Stoner.........the Bike !!!



What has changed ? not Rossi...........the Bike !!!

Fred Gassit said:

As someone who didn't hate Stoner for beating Rossi in 07, the 23 out of 30 is to be expected when,



1) You have the Talent that he does



2) you ride it longer than anyother one person.



Rossi won't do anything this year......they are hardly trying to do anything with this bike now.......it's all about 2012. I don't mean Rossi isn't trying......rather factory input into a bike ( and engine capacity) that will be null and void next year.

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I was not intending to criticise rossi, just pointing out to nino as I have previously that stoner has given ducati most of their success in motogp; excluding him they are also-rans against the traditional power houses of honda and yamaha.



I am definitely a stoner fan, but I agree if you put rossi on the honda he would be back at the front contending for the win in every race, and that he even might be doing better than jorge on the yamaha.

I can't stand Hee_Haw...........but, he did better than Rossi last year......... and all things equal, would be right up there with Stoner...........I'm not sad though........I get my perverted, sad little miscreant kicks out of watching that grumpy, opinionated Donkey suffer.



Hey......even other Spanish riders don't like him !!! ( is he the rider with the longest list of enemies in the last 10 years or what.....I don't know them all, but, Barberra, Pedrobot, De angelis, Bautista, Dovi...man, it goes on and on.........bloody Donkey.)



I wasn't having a go at you either........I was trying to add to your statement......no offence intended.



As in my comments about neither riders ability changing......just the bike they're on.



Stoner now rides the Honda just like he rode the Duck, and look at the difference in results.



Rossi now now rides the Duck like he has any other bike.........and just as well as Stoner rode it.



The only times I would say Stoner rode it better were the times he ended up binning it........'cause it's a turd.........when he had to ride it to the limit where it would stay shiny side up, the results are comparable.

Nino said:

...a 6th or 7th is better than a DNF.

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In a championship season yes. If your fighting for 4-5 in the championship, i will take the guy who crashes out of the lead over the guy who cruises around in 4th or 5th. What was it Roger called Hayden, The Cruising Caretaker, now we have the Loafing Legend. Let me put it to you this way, if you were 4th in the championship and hopelessly out of the title race, would you rather have a win and a DNF, or a 4th and a 5th place finish.I personally think Rossi is gun shy at the moment, He has tasted the agony of serious injury in the past year and is afraid to pull the trigger on the Duc, knowing it could spit him at any time without warning.

Baffy said:

Ha ha yes i understand that barry, but the Duc didnt exactly get much development over the off season.



Tires will have improved but people saying that Rossi isnt trying hard enough i find unfair.

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Well you can't convict me of saying Rossi is not trying hard enough.



I have maintained all along that Rossi does not possess the skill set to ride the Duc as well as Stoner.



Buggered if I know how hard he is applying the skill set that he does have.





Some folk on here seem to think it just a matter of hard work ........... I disagree ...... some folks just have what it takes.



Rossi certainly has had "what it took" for many years in the past ........... but not for his current circumstance. He needs to either change the Ducati to suit him, or learn new skills.



No dishonour in that in my book, but its just the way it is.

povol said:

In a championship season yes. If your fighting for 4-5 in the championship, i will take the guy who crashes out of the lead over the guy who cruises around in 4th or 5th. What was it Roger called Hayden, The Cruising Caretaker, now we have the Loafing Legend.

Let me put it to you this way, if you were 4th in the championship and hopelessly out of the title race, would you rather have a win and a DNF, or a 4th and a 5th place finish.I personally think Rossi is gun shy at the moment, He has tasted the agony of serious injury in the past year and is afraid to pull the trigger on the Duc, knowing it could spit him at any time without warning.

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I agree with this as a large part of the problem at present but I don't think its all of the problem. The stars just aren't aligning for Rossi in many areas, and thats one of them. Sadly the competition is so good at present that I wonder if he can recover? even if he switches brands, it may be too late?

povol said:

In a championship season yes. If your fighting for 4-5 in the championship, i will take the guy who crashes out of the lead over the guy who cruises around in 4th or 5th. What was it Roger called Hayden, The Cruising Caretaker, now we have the Loafing Legend.

Let me put it to you this way, if you were 4th in the championship and hopelessly out of the title race, would you rather have a win and a DNF, or a 4th and a 5th place finish.I personally think Rossi is gun shy at the moment, He has tasted the agony of serious injury in the past year and is afraid to pull the trigger on the Duc, knowing it could spit him at any time without warning.

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Good point.



I think he will finish lower than 4th, knows it..........and as you said........is it worth risking it all for 4th on a bike that may well bite him hard and hurt him.

He may have a chance at finishing fourth now that Jlo is going to have to push hard to keep up with Casey, we may see some 09 Jlo, and who knows what's going on with Pedro. This is also the same reason I like to see tight racing pressure=mistakes. I was highly impressed by Dovi this weekend, if he can keep it up it should be fun watching him fight the two yams for the #2 spot.

................yeah............I had really high hopes that Hee-Haw (Jlo) was going to be the next Biaggi.



But Damn..........he already got a title away.



Not so flash now he's having to use Rossi and JB's year old settings eh ?



(sarcasm......don't start with the Rossi bashing, I was only using the reference to bash Hee-Haw )





wasn't that Funny !?...........remember Biaggi......"He's on the best bike, He's on the best bike.......if we swapped bikes, the story would be different !'



Sure was.........you got to lose on a Honda as well !!!!





Isn't it also hilarious that every bike he rode ( in the premier class) had the same problem of losing the front/chatter .........but it wasn't him ohhhh noooo.....it was the team !!!



I seem to recollect him losing the front in superbikes as well..........but it wasn't him.....ohhh noooo....



You could almost see him have a sigh of relief when Doohan left..............



"Now I will get the championship !!..........Rossi ??........who is this Rossi pip-squeak they talk of ??...........awwww.... bwaaaaa waaaa waaa.......not fair !!!!......"

Ahhh Biaggi.............it's just not as funny when it's not you with the whinging.





sorry to digress....sometimes the memories just come flooding back

you mean the bike has not progressed.........no-one can polish a turd.



You can polish a turd, it is just a very dirty job & a lot of hard work. Stoner made that turd gleam sometimes. It was a very dirty job that was hard physically (I think it took a lot of physical exertion to ride), required great mental strength (you realise you are working with .... but say "OK, this is what I've got to work with") & sometimes, no matter how much polish was applied, it still remained a turd (crashes). I truely hope Rossi is willing to get down & dirty with his turd because it's going to take a hell of a lot of polish just to get it to a dull shine.