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Lorenzo wasn't trying, ...............

That's a good one. So what your saying is, Lorenzo can outscore Rossi without even trying. Its that easy for him eh?

Brings to mind a certain saying, relating ambition and talent.

In this particular race Lorenzo's talent far outweighed his ambition. He didn't even try, and scored 1 more point over Rossi.

On the other hand, Rossi's ambition once again far outweighed his talent. He tried too hard, rushed himself into a corner with no real pressure, and crashed out.

And yet of all riders, it happened to be none other than Miller who managed to try just the right amount and win the race.

Now what's the lesson from all this Doctor Vudu? Don't try too hard or too easy, try just enough. Like Marquez did, at PI, 2015.
 
That's a good one. So what your saying is, Lorenzo can outscore Rossi without even trying. Its that easy for him eh?

Brings to mind a certain saying, relating ambition and talent.

In this particular race Lorenzo's talent far outweighed his ambition. He didn't even try, and scored 1 more point over Rossi.

On the other hand, Rossi's ambition once again far outweighed his talent. He tried too hard, rushed himself into a corner with no real pressure, and crashed out.

And yet of all riders, it happened to be none other than Miller who managed to try just the right amount and win the race.

Now what's the lesson from all this Doctor Vudu? Don't try too hard or too easy, try just enough. Like Marquez did, at PI, 2015.

2016 MotoGP top 3 points table
1 Marc Marquez Repsol Honda 298
2 Valentino Rossi Movistar Yamaha 249
3 Jorge Lorenzo Movistar Yamaha 233


No risk, no reward. Rossi took the chances he needed to to get the best possible finish or he crashed trying. In the end, his efforts saw him finish ahead of Lorenzo.
 
Here ya' go. Have at it. I thought there were more wet races, but this is what is shown.

Wet Races - Lorenzo finishing position

2013
After Assen - NO WET RACES

2014
Assen - 13
Deutschland (Mixed) - 3

2015
British - 4
Japan - 3

2016
Assen - 19
Deutschland - 15
Česke´ Republiky - 17
Malaysia - 3

Thanks. It does seem like there would've been more wet races since 2013, but I guess not. Maybe JPS's climate change theories are real after all. :eek:
 
2016 MotoGP top 3 points table
1 Marc Marquez Repsol Honda 298
2 Valentino Rossi Movistar Yamaha 249
3 Jorge Lorenzo Movistar Yamaha 233


No risk, no reward. Rossi took the chances he needed to to get the best possible finish or he crashed trying. In the end, his efforts saw him finish ahead of Lorenzo.


Who remembers second best? It only matters who's the champ. 1. Marquez. Rossi could should would have won the title if he didn't risk more than his talent allowed and crashed out of those races. If only he had radio communications to Uccio he would know when to try and risk, when not to, and when to come in to the pits to change to slicks.

But alas, this isn't 2002, when Burgess admitted he came up with the idea of track mapping the engine to deliver an outcome in his words:

"I could see all these riders wobbling around the track because the 990's had too much power, so we came up with the solution for Rossi to give him the perfect amount of power to suit the track, each corner. It was obvious he was doing it far easier than the others".

.... eh Vudu. I thought Rossi hated electronics? Hated that it made the bikes easier for all the riders. But that's wasn't the entire truth was it. What he hated was other riders getting the same advantage he enjoyed. He ....... loved the electronics that tamed the mighty V5 Honda, he ....... hated Barros first ride of the mighty V5 Honda which showed him up. The next race, Barros got a new updated electronics package, later labelled 'tire destroyer don't mess with Rossi package'.

And balance was restored to the universe. Who came second in 2002?
 
Here ya' go. Have at it. I thought there were more wet races, but this is what is shown.

Wet Races - Lorenzo finishing position

2013
After Assen - NO WET RACES

2014
Assen - 13
Deutschland (Mixed) - 3

2015
British - 4
Japan - 3

2016
Assen - 19
Deutschland - 15
Česke´ Republiky - 17
Malaysia - 3

Lorenzo finished 10th in Assen 2016
 
Bottom line is that MV likely believes the PI 2015 conspiracy theory (among other such theories) and therefore disapproves of/ has it in for MM and JL because of this.

You continue to fail to address MV that RD, who have the responsibility in actual reality for rider safety, and were trackside in the weather rather than watching the race on TV, red-flagged the race in question. There is ample precedent for incredibly brave and tough riders or drivers assessing such situations in advance of the stewards; cf Niki Lauda who similarly assessed wet conditions as too dangerous for racing to continue. Obviously Jorge who only raced on the same week-end he broke his clavicle and had it internally fixed doesn't meet the exacting MV standard for bravery and toughness, but Niki actually came back and raced only a few races after nearly burning to death in a crash, in fact receiving the last rites in hospital at one stage.

Everyone knows multiple factors influence climate, cf the rise in sea-level since the peak of the last ice age in advance of the industrial revolution. However returning all the carbon sequestered for the last 70 million years or more into the environment over 200 years is at the very least a major scientific experiment. The argument that an entire international body of scientists are propounding anthropomorphic climate change because they want it to be true/to keep their meagre research grants is especially amusing, particularly given their opponents are mostly people making much larger amounts of money from mining, and also seem to have as their major argument that they don't want it to be true. I certainly don't understand the climate change models and seriously doubt the conservatively aligned journalists who dispute them do either, but if the models or the climate change hypothesis are wrong it will be for scientific rather than political reasons. What is certain is that fossil fuels are not inexhaustible, and nor are they non-polluting.
 
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Whoops. I put the results for race one. Not race two. Thanks for pointing that out.

At least 1 more wet race in 2015, Misano, a dry/wet race where JL had the tactical advantage having pitted for wets before Rossi and crashed pushing too hard (I think trying to stay in front of Redding) rather than riding too timidly. At Motegi 2015 he was second most of the way then was passed by Rossi late race after trashing his tyres, again hardly a race in which he was not prepared to push.

Looks more like his problem was last year and related to the Michelin wets not working with his riding style, particularly given this is what he says himself .
 
At least 1 more wet race in 2015, Misano, a dry/wet race where JL had the tactical advantage having pitted for wets before Rossi and crashed pushing too hard (I think trying to stay in front of Redding) rather than riding too timidly. At Motegi 2015 he was second most of the way then was passed by Rossi late race after trashing his tyres, again hardly a race in which he was not prepared to push.

Looks more like his problem was last year and related to the Michelin wets not working with his riding style, particularly given this is what he says himself .

You mean there is evidence to prove what the majority of the board is saying but not for what MV is saying? No way :p
 
Bottom line is that MV likely believes the PI 2015 conspiracy theory (among others) and therefore disapproves of/ has it in for MM and JL because of this.

You continue to fail to address MV that RD, who have the responsibility in actual reality for rider safety, and were trackside in the weather rather than watching the race on TV, red-flagged the race in question. There is ample precedent for incredibly brave and tough riders or drivers assessing such situations in advance of the stewards; cf Niki Lauda who similarly assessed wet conditions as too dangerous for racing to continue. Obviously Jorge who only raced on the same week-end he broke his clavicle and had it internally fixed doesn't meet the exacting MV standard for bravery and toughness, but Niki actually came back and raced only a few races after nearly burning to death in a crash, in fact receiving the last rites in hospital at one stage.

Everyone knows multiple factors influence climate, cf the rise in sea-level since the peak of the last ice age in advance of the industrial revolution. However returning all the carbon sequestered for the last 70 million years or more into the environment over 200 years is at the very least a major scientific experiment. The argument that an entire international body of scientists are propounding anthropomorphic climate change because they want it to be true/to keep their meagre research grants is particularly amusing, particularly given their opponents are mostly people making much larger amounts of money from mining, and also seem to have as their major argument that they don't want it to be true. I certainly don't understand the climate change models and seriously doubt the conservatively aligned journalists who dispute them do either, but if the models or the climate change hypothesis are wrong it will be for scientific rather than political reasons. What is certain is that fossil fuels are not inexhaustible, and nor are they non-polluting.

I have to think MV is willfully trolling because the alternative is having to accept one man is genuinely that stupid. I'd like to give the benefit of a doubt.
 
Aragon 2014 should also be considered (for post assen lorenzo's mixed/wet race performance). It was a mixed race, which JLo won.

Only thing lorenzo did wrong in 2016 was showing outright dominance in Qatar with a softer tyre profile. Pity tat, softer tyre compound was changed after Argentina itself (blocked in Arg race day and modified before the next race).

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk
 
I just pulled the races designated as "wet', but I agree with the other ones that have been included. Pedrosa was really set back with the Michelins, too. His worst finish in MotoGP. Between the bike and tires, he has had a rough time.

This is a good reminder of how dramatic the tyre change has been: From Nov 2015 Autosport
Valentino Rossi worried about MotoGP switch to Michelin tyres
 
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Only thing lorenzo did wrong in 2016 was showing outright dominance in Qatar with a softer tyre profile. Pity tat, softer tyre compound was changed after Argentina itself (blocked in Arg race day and modified before the next race).
He dominated on that tyre at the French GP, taking pole, breaking his own lap record from 2015 and taking the win by over 10 seconds.

Second at COTA, second at Jerez, won at Mugello, was the fastest non-Ducati at Spielberg, was the strongest in practice at Brno (in the dry), took pole at Misano and ended the season with a pole and a win at Valencia.
 
I have to think MV is willfully trolling because the alternative is having to accept one man is genuinely that stupid. I'd like to give the benefit of a doubt.

He isn't that stupid, he is just unwilling to admit that his argument is weak and not fact.
 
He isn't that stupid, he is just unwilling to admit that his argument is weak and not fact.

Denying Lorenzo has been struggling in the wet after his crash @ Assen 2013 would be like denying Rossi was struggling with the new qualifying format. Rossi had to work to improve his qualifying, hopefully Lorenzo has done whatever preparation he needed to be ready for any future wet races.
 
You didn't say struggling, you said he flat out gave up, and cruised to the back. No-one here denies he has been struggling, but what you were so affirmative of was that he wasn't even trying.
 
You didn't say struggling, you said he flat out gave up, and cruised to the back. No-one here denies he has been struggling, but what you were so affirmative of was that he wasn't even trying.

Apparently I believe Lorenzo is a better rider than you do. The only way Lorenzo falls to the back of the grid is due to some sort of technical malfunction or he isn't putting forth effort. Sorry, I don't buy "he didn't have great feeling from the tires" as an excuse to fall all the way into last place. Lorenzo has produced far better results in situations where he didn't have good feedback from the tires. It's my OPINION, last year at Assen he didn't care enough to put himself at risk in the wet conditions so yes... he essentially gave up. He admitted he was very close to pulling into the pits. You can disagree with me all you want, it's just how I see the situation.
 
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He dominated on that tyre at the French GP, taking pole, breaking his own lap record from 2015 and taking the win by over 10 seconds.

Second at COTA, second at Jerez, won at Mugello, was the fastest non-Ducati at Spielberg, was the strongest in practice at Brno (in the dry), took pole at Misano and ended the season with a pole and a win at Valencia.

Since you are newer here, a number of us were predicting Lorenzo would not have a successful title defense after the performance he put on at Sepang in preseason 2016. The prediction was ultimately correct, as his preferred tire was never seen again.

Lorenzo was at his strongest when he didn't have to worry about generating heat for the tires.

In addition, you cite several races which comprise of less than 50% of the overall calendar. Those races were not a reflection of the season as a whole. You also are leaving out that at COTA, it was MM's race to lose, and short of mechanical failure/crashing, he was not going to lose that race. Lorenzo finished over 6 seconds behind, and MM was cruising the last lap turning in a time that was 3 seconds slower than his prior laps. Had he rode at normal pace, Lorenzo would have been somewhere between 9 and 10 seconds down the road.

Let's look at ground temperatures for the races you mention:

COTA: 34C
Jerez: 40C
Le Mans: 35C
Mugello: 48C
Red Bull Ring: 46C
Valencia: 25C

Motegi started off north of 20C, but the temperatures dropped and caught out both Rossi and Lorenzo as keeping heat in the front was a problem.

Argentina was 30C but conditions were mixed and Michelin was having major problems with the front tire in that race as Lorenzo was not the only one with issues in that grand prix.

Assen: 20C (Wet)
Sachsenring: 24C (Wet weather and major structural failure of multiple front tires)
Brno: 18C (Wet)
Silverstone: 18C

But here's the interesting one.

Sepang: 28C (Wet)

Lorenzo finished on the podium in Sepang 11 seconds down on race winner Dovizioso.

It's obvious the "problem" with Lorenzo has more to do with what the track temperatures are in conjunction with the nature of the Michelin front tire than the wet weather. That he had a podium at Sepang should have been a clue to his detractors that it's a bit more nuanced than simply saying he doesn't try in the rain. But what can you expect when dealing with people who don't bother to look at the historical record as well as other factors such as heat generation in the Michelin tires for those who are not heavy on the brakes (Marquez, Rossi, Dovizioso). Lorenzo's issue in 2016 was simply his riding style does not rely on riding the front tire as heavily as his other competitors, and the races he had the most issues with were the cooler track temperature races, that also happened to be wet weather races. Silverstone 2016 was a case of a dry weather race in which ground temperatures were below 20C. Lorenzo finished 8th. It's easy to look at Rossi and think Lorenzo isn't trying, but that's not evidence to be used that Lorenzo isn't trying.

The answer is quite simple: the Michelin front is better suited for Rossi, and while he had problems in some of the cooler weather races, they were nowhere near as pronounced as Lorenzo's due to his ability to generate heat in the front. Sure Lorenzo prefers the edge treated tires, but his record is such that he has done well even without edge grip tires. Michelin made a shoddy front tire for 2016 and that combined with track temperatures had a lot to do with Lorenzo's inconsistent performances. Chalking it up to him being mentally weak or not trying is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty.
 
Since you are newer here, a number of us were predicting Lorenzo would not have a successful title defense after the performance he put on at Sepang in preseason 2016. The prediction was ultimately correct, as his preferred tire was never seen again.

Lorenzo was at his strongest when he didn't have to worry about generating heat for the tires.

........................

Every rider is strongest when they don't have to worry about generating heat into the tire. You're taking Lorenzo's lack of ability to adapt to conditions and blaming it on Michelin, Yamaha, Rossi, and a weather god. It doesn't matter what the asphalt temps are because the temps are the same for everyone. Including the Tech 3 riders who are less skilled than Lorenzo and were riding his bike from the previous year.
 
Every rider is strongest when they don't have to worry about generating heat into the tire. You're taking Lorenzo's lack of ability to adapt to conditions and blaming it on Michelin, Yamaha, Rossi, and a weather god. It doesn't matter what the asphalt temps are because the temps are the same for everyone. Including the Tech 3 riders who are less skilled than Lorenzo and were riding his bike from the previous year.

Once again you make a number of false claims as usual.

And I never blamed anything on Rossi or anyone. I stated nothing more than what the reality of the situation is. I did state that one of Rossi's advantages in terms of skill is what put him in a better position on the M1 to deal with cool weather temperatures with the current Michelin front. You should learn to read first.

Comparing a Tech 3 Yamaha M1 to a factory Yamaha M1 is where you go off the rails again as usual.

Let me know when you have something of substance to state because you haven't managed to do it yet.
 

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