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moto vudu · Mar 16, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Fixed.

Tell us about this information of you have of Michelin deciding to risk rider safety. Give us the facts you received in the Michelin meetings where they decided to produce unsafe tires. Were you also kept in the loop for the issues Bridgestone had while they were the supplier? Give up the facts JPS... expert.

Gaz · Mar 16, 2017

JPSLotus said:
For a top tier racing series, the tires Michelin brought from a safety point were unacceptable.

There is NO defense you can make for the quality of tires Michelin produced and thought supplying the teams with in 2016 was acceptable. Do not even try to make excuses for them the way you are doing. Trying to rationalize and justify it shows an incredible amount of ignorance on your part.

No excuse but I did not expect a lot from them in 2016 as it was the first year back where they had no data from which to work (all data being Bridgestone's) so I fully recognise that they were starting afresh.

Fully agree that to have tyres explode was unsafe and totally unacceptable but also recognise that this only occurred on Ducati's where the tyre pressure was claimed to be low at start, although we did subsequently see delamination and poor wet tyres (not to mention inconsistent quality of tyres).

Was it a great year for Michelin, not by any way and I suspect that they fully know it as they were lambasted from pillar to post and by all and sundry, so they copped a (deserved?) pasting.

This is the year of no excuses for Michelin so let us see if all continues along the 2016 trail or if we see consistency and improvement.

Daniboy said:
Lap records were broken all season, races won in record times. Not bad for first season back after all that time out.

To be fair though Dani, the bikes improve year on year as well so one cannot fully or wholly say well done Michelin when it is one of those things that 'just happens'.

JPSLotus · Mar 16, 2017

moto moron said:
Tell us about this information of you have of Michelin deciding to risk rider safety. Give us the facts you received in the Michelin meetings where they decided to produce unsafe tires. Were you also keep in the loop for the issues Bridgestone had while they were the supplier? Give up the facts JPS... expert.

I said Michelin produced unsafe front tires. I didn't say they KNOWINGLY produced unsafe front tires. There's a distinct difference between the former and the latter. Not that you would really grasp the difference between the two. More of your vaunted reading comprehension at work right buddy?

Oh wait, you were the same person who argued it was the fault of the teams/riders for the Brno delaminations, and that it couldn't possibly be down to ...... front tire...in fact, you tried to compare what happened at Misano 2015 with the Bridgestone front tires spitting off rubber in a normal process to Michelin structural front tire failure when entire sections of the compound came off.

JPSLotus · Mar 16, 2017

Gaz said:
No excuse but I did not expect a lot from them in 2016 as it was the first year back where they had no data from which to work (all data being Bridgestone's) so I fully recognise that they were starting afresh.

Fully agree that to have tyres explode was unsafe and totally unacceptable but also recognise that this only occurred on Ducati's where the tyre pressure was claimed to be low at start, although we did subsequently see delamination and poor wet tyres (not to mention inconsistent quality of tyres).

Was it a great year for Michelin, not by any way and I suspect that they fully know it as they were lambasted from pillar to post and by all and sundry, so they copped a (deserved?) pasting.

This is the year of no excuses for Michelin so let us see if all continues along the 2016 trail or if we see consistency and improvement.

To be fair though Dani, the bikes improve year on year as well so one cannot fully or wholly say well done Michelin when it is one of those things that 'just happens'.

Gaz,

I have no issue with a tire manufacturer having to become acclimated to a race series as certainly testing data does not always match up with actual race data...and having to learn new circuits with their eccentricities also factors in as well. But not producing a structurally sound tire is unforgivable on any level of racing due to the obvious safety implications. If it was a one off incident, it happens, but what we watched in 2016 was not a case of one-off incidents. It happened far too often and the journalists were real slow to call Michelin out on it as you recall.

moto vudu · Mar 16, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I said Michelin produced unsafe front tires. I didn't say they KNOWINGLY produced unsafe front tires. There's a distinct difference between the former and the latter. Not that you would really grasp the difference between the two. More of your vaunted reading comprehension at work right buddy?

Oh wait, you were the same person who argued it was the fault of the teams/riders for the Brno delaminations, and that it couldn't possibly be down to ...... front tire...in fact, you tried to compare what happened at Misano 2015 with the Bridgestone front tires spitting off rubber in a normal process to Michelin structural front tire failure when entire sections of the compound came off.

Yeah, I remember that your superior knowledge of racing failed to help you understand what can happen when a soft rain tire is used on a drying or dry track.

Funny how you constantly talk .... about Michelin, while your idol had some harsh words for Bridgestone and the lengths they'll go to cover up flaws in their tires.

All this presupposes that the fault was not down to a manufacturing fault, something which Bridgestone explicitly denies. Casey Stoner was far from convinced, and had some harsh words for the Japanese tire firm. "It's simple, they've got faulty tires," Stoner said on Friday. A day earlier he had expressed his doubts about his own tires at Silverstone, as well as the tires at Assen: "We went to a track like Silverstone and we really struggled, but at the same time we don't know if there's tire faults going round. In my opinion at Silverstone, there was something wrong with the left side of my tire, and as we've seen in Assen immediately the week after it was sort of confirmed that there are problems with the Bridgestone tires, but you'll never hear them admit it."

Bridgestone's unwillingness to admit when they had issues had been a problem since he first switched to the brand in 2007, Stoner said. "They'll always cover everything up, they have since I raced with them back in '07, they've never admitted to anything being wrong with the tire, they'll always say, you put too much temperature in, you did this wrong, you did that wrong, but they'll never actually admit it themselves," he said on Thursday.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/07/06/bridgestone_s_tire_failures_at_assen_sto.html

danski · Mar 16, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Nice to see your standards are so low that lap records mean more than a properly made front tire.

I wager a lap record means the front tyre is working fine, also because of that it's probably properly made.

JPSLotus · Mar 16, 2017

moto moron said:
Yeah, I remember that your superior knowledge of racing failed to help you understand what can happen when a soft rain tire is used on a drying or dry track.

Funny how you constantly talk .... about Michelin, while your idol had some harsh words for Bridgestone and the lengths they go to to cover up flaw in their tires.

All this presupposes that the fault was not down to a manufacturing fault, something which Bridgestone explicitly denies. Casey Stoner was far from convinced, and had some harsh words for the Japanese tire firm. "It's simple, they've got faulty tires," Stoner said on Friday. A day earlier he had expressed his doubts about his own tires at Silverstone, as well as the tires at Assen: "We went to a track like Silverstone and we really struggled, but at the same time we don't know if there's tire faults going round. In my opinion at Silverstone, there was something wrong with the left side of my tire, and as we've seen in Assen immediately the week after it was sort of confirmed that there are problems with the Bridgestone tires, but you'll never hear them admit it."

Bridgestone's unwillingness to admit when they had issues had been a problem since he first switched to the brand in 2007, Stoner said. "They'll always cover everything up, they have since I raced with them back in '07, they've never admitted to anything being wrong with the tire, they'll always say, you put too much temperature in, you did this wrong, you did that wrong, but they'll never actually admit it themselves," he said on Thursday.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/07/06/bridgestone_s_tire_failures_at_assen_sto.html

The discussion was about the Michelin front. I never mentioned anything regarding Bridgestone because they haven't supplied MotoGP since Valencia 2015 and it's not relevant for the purposes of this discussion. Try and stay on topic instead of creating red herrings.

moto vudu · Mar 16, 2017

JPSLotus said:
The discussion was about the Michelin front. I never mentioned anything regarding Bridgestone because they haven't supplied MotoGP since Valencia 2015 and it's not relevant for the purposes of this discussion. Try and stay on topic instead of creating red herrings.

No, you didn't mention Bridgestone because it wouldn't support your narrative that Michelin failed and risked rider safety.

Michelin did just fine for their first year back. They likely exceeded expectations.

p4p1 · Mar 16, 2017

moto vudu said:
Tell us about this information of you have of Michelin deciding to risk rider safety. Give us the facts you received in the Michelin meetings where they decided to produce unsafe tires. Were you also kept in the loop for the issues Bridgestone had while they were the supplier? Give up the facts JPS... expert.

You're such a ....... ...... Literally every rider including your hero complained about the front tyre. Not just that it wasn't as good as Bridgestones but that it was inconsistent from tyre to tyre and more importantly it would let go without warning. If you don't consider that unsafe then you're (but we already knew this) a ....... moron. There were entire articles written by Journos about a 'tyre lottery' and complete inconsistency from tyre to tyre.

p4p1 · Mar 16, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I said Michelin produced unsafe front tires. I didn't say they KNOWINGLY produced unsafe front tires. There's a distinct difference between the former and the latter. Not that you would really grasp the difference between the two. More of your vaunted reading comprehension at work right buddy?

Oh wait, you were the same person who argued it was the fault of the teams/riders for the Brno delaminations, and that it couldn't possibly be down to ...... front tire...in fact, you tried to compare what happened at Misano 2015 with the Bridgestone front tires spitting off rubber in a normal process to Michelin structural front tire failure when entire sections of the compound came off.

I forgot about the Brno argument. That was hilarious.

p4p1 · Mar 16, 2017

Daniboy said:
I wager a lap record means the front tyre is working fine, also because of that it's probably properly made.

Not when riders are all complaining about lack of consistency or lack of warning when it lets go.

JPSLotus · Mar 16, 2017

moto moron said:
No, you didn't mention Bridgestone because it wouldn't support your narrative that Michelin failed and risked rider safety.

Michelin did just fine for their first year back. They likely exceeded expectations.

I wasn't doing a comparison to Bridgestone as that has nothing to do with my point about the Michelin front tire. Maybe if I were saying something like "Bridgestone was FREE OF ANY PROBLEMS compared to Michelin," then you might actually have a valid point. Bridgestone's issues are all well documented and have been discussed at length. Try and work on that reading comprehension if you can. Maybe you need some more Adderall so you can stay focused buddy.

Gaz · Mar 16, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Gaz,

I have no issue with a tire manufacturer having to become acclimated to a race series as certainly testing data does not always match up with actual race data...and having to learn new circuits with their eccentricities also factors in as well. But not producing a structurally sound tire is unforgivable on any level of racing due to the obvious safety implications. If it was a one off incident, it happens, but what we watched in 2016 was not a case of one-off incidents. It happened far too often and the journalists were real slow to call Michelin out on it as you recall.

Much the same JPS, inconsistent performance is unforgivable be that structural or performance and in 2016 we saw that as ALL riders at one time or other made mention of 'tyres' as defining their performance (or crash).

You were a critic from the earliest day of the front and whilst the rear did seem to improve throughout the year with less issues, the front, and in particular the wet front left a large amount to be desired (still recall that pic of Ianonne, Lorenzo pitting with a chunk out of the tyre and what he copped as a result).

I am sure that all can agree that 2017 NEEDS to see better all round performance from Michelin, but I also suspect that many wonder if they are building tyres to an entertainment plan or building tyres to race

danski · Mar 16, 2017

p4p1 said:
Not when riders are all complaining about lack of consistency or lack of warning when it lets go.

Early on yes, they were used to the awesome Bridgestone front and the Michelin wasn't as good and also lacked feel. However some riders learned quicker than others and moaned less as the season wore on, watch the first few races coming up, I'll bet the problems of last year are gone.

AJV80 · Mar 16, 2017

I think its only fair to give Michelin a chance this season to show what they can do with some valid track data to design the tyres around. When Bridgestone became the sole tyre supplier they where actively involved in the series in the years leading up to it which would make things easier.

I dont know what their contractual obligations are in terms of tyre options to be supplied each round. But I wouldnt be surprised if the costs associated with many of the vast options they offered up was coming out of their own pockets.

The front was woeful and unpredictable all season, chalk it down to trying to develop a tyre on the run ... there are no excuses this season.

yamfan · Mar 16, 2017

Why was the front tyre Lorenzo won on in Qatar never used again?
The problem the Ducati boys had,Redding in particular, was the rear tyres delaminating. I don't recall anything negative said about the front tyre at that meeting, just the rears declared unsafe.

p4p1 · Mar 16, 2017

Daniboy said:
Early on yes, they were used to the awesome Bridgestone front and the Michelin wasn't as good and also lacked feel. However some riders learned quicker than others and moaned less as the season wore on, watch the first few races coming up, I'll bet the problems of last year are gone.

They still complained all year about the Michelin letting go. That they got less vocal logic would say is down to a gag order coming from DORNA rather than the tyre becoming more consistent. Even late in the year guys who crashed were saying they did nothing different but the tyre let go without warning.

michaelm · Mar 16, 2017

moto vudu said:
Tell us about this information of you have of Michelin deciding to risk rider safety. Give us the facts you received in the Michelin meetings where they decided to produce unsafe tires. Were you also kept in the loop for the issues Bridgestone had while they were the supplier? Give up the facts JPS... expert.

You surely can't dispute that there were major tyre problems last year. This needn't involve any conspiracy of course, it was Michelin's first year back, there was a major change to the bikes with the control ECU etc. I do think it is legitimate to speculate what instructions they had from Dorna however, given statements made by Ezy in the past.

The facts are that a particular tyre variety had to be withdrawn due to a tendency to explode when put on Ducati bikes, a particular wet tyre delaminated unpredictably, tyre choices were unusable on certain bikes on a given race week-end, and that there were front washouts for many riders, considered fairly random by some of those riders.

If you want to argue that they struggled because it was their first year back, or against pro-Rossi tyre conspiracies ( the problems beset him at least as much as other riders imo) fine, but I don't see how anyone can consider the tyres being problematic last year to be a matter of opinion.

michaelm · Mar 16, 2017

moto vudu said:
There you go stating your opinions as facts again and calling folks ignorant if they don't agree with you.

While you continue to ignore facts which don't suit your narrative (which is pro-Rossi and anti-Lorenzo and to a lesser extent anti-MM at least as much as others have anti-Rossi agendas) and to doggedly repeat opinions you can't support or defend in the apparent belief that repetition somehow validates those opinions.

Again, for several pages on this thread you have continued to reprove JL for not trying in wet conditions in a race which was red-flagged soon afterwards because RD considered those conditions to be too unsafe for the race to continue. You also appear to suggest on another thread that what Jerry Burgess said in a particular interview at the time of his retirement when he is fairly unlikely to wish to denigrate anyone, particularly the rider with whom he had his greatest success, settles the question of his and Rossi's parting forever while discounting frequent direct statements by Lorenzo that the Michelin wet is problematic for him because he can't get heat into it with his riding style.

moto vudu · Mar 16, 2017

michaelm said:
You surely can't dispute that there were major tyre problems last year. This needn't involve any conspiracy of course, it was Michelin's first year back, there was a major change to the bikes with the control ECU etc. I do think it is legitimate to speculate what instructions they had from Dorna however, given statements made by Ezy in the past.

The facts are that a particular tyre variety had to be withdrawn due to a tendency to explode when put on Ducati bikes, a particular wet tyre which delaminated unpredictably, tyre choices which was unusable on certain bikes on a given race week-end, and front washouts for many riders, considered fairly random by some of those riders.

If you want to argue that they struggled because it was their first year back, or against pro-Rossi tyre conspiracies ( the problems beset him at least as much as other riders imo) fine, but I don't see how anyone can consider the tyres being problematic last year to be a matter of opinion.

Same sort of issues that have existed in racing since the very beginning and are not unique to last year's Michelins. Bridgestone had failures even when they weren't a new supplier and the issue with the Michelins wets were that they were used in the wrong conditions. The soft wets that experienced problems at Brno were fine in the soaked conditions at Assen. We debated this for at least a week last year and even motomatters had an article that said essentially the same thing I was telling all of you.

Tire choices that were unusable on a certain bike? I'm assuming you're talking about the problems the M1 had in cool temps, but that would be more the fault of Yamaha because they control how much weight their bike puts on either tire. It's not Michelin's job to make a tire specifically for the Yamaha, it's Yamaha's job to adjust their bike to the tires. But Yamaha wouldn't have expected any or many races with such unusually cool conditions.

I asked this question before regarding front end washouts, does anyone know for a fact that there were more front end crashes last year than 2015? It's easy to think there was because you remember what's most recent.

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