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JPSLotus said:

Once again you make a number of false claims as usual.

And I never blamed anything on Rossi or anyone. I stated nothing more than what the reality of the situation is. I did state that one of Rossi's advantages in terms of skill is what put him in a better position on the M1 to deal with cool weather temperatures with the current Michelin front. You should learn to read first.

Comparing a Tech 3 Yamaha M1 to a factory Yamaha M1 is where you go off the rails again as usual.

Let me know when you have something of substance to state because you haven't managed to do it yet.

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So have you moved on from your Michelin-tino tire conspiracy that you pushed so hard last year?

moto moron said:

So have you moved on from your Michelin-tino tire conspiracy that you pushed so hard last year?

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Let me know when you have something of substance to say, and also when you learn something about the sport you claim to be a fan of.

JPSLotus said:

Let me know when you have something of substance to say, and also when you learn something about the sport you claim to be a fan of.

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You're asking for something of substance while failing to own up to your BS conspiracy. Just like last year when you failed to own up to the BS you spouted about every rider at Valencia 2015 moving out of Rossi's way. You're a self-proclaimed racing expert that's full of BS and intolerant of anyone who wont accept your opinions as facts.

moto moron said:

You're asking for something of substance while failing to own up to your BS conspiracy. Just like last year when you failed to own up to the BS you spouted about every rider at Valencia 2015 moving out of Rossi's way. You're a self-proclaimed racing expert that's full of BS and intolerant of anyone who wont accept your opinions as facts.

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Try and stick to the topic being discussed instead of attempting to switch the conversation into something else. Most of this forum has grown tired of your rank stupidity.

P.S. A lot of riders did move out of Rossi's way. Who can forget Petrucci running off the track so as not to impede Rossi.

JPSLotus said:

Try and stick to the topic being discussed instead of attempting to switch the conversation into something else. Most of this forum has grown tired of your rank stupidity.

P.S. A lot of riders did move out of Rossi's way. Who can forget Petrucci running off the track so as not to impede Rossi.

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Still not owning up to your BS. The only highly knowledge person here that doesn't post with ton of bias is Arrabbi.

Right, you still count Petrucci as "a lot of riders". Interesting math.

JPSLotus said:

Since you are newer here, a number of us were predicting Lorenzo would not have a successful title defense after the performance he put on at Sepang in preseason 2016. The prediction was ultimately correct, as his preferred tire was never seen again.

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That would take us into zone of conspiracy theories. There's nothing to suggest that Michelin would have switched compounds if Baz and Redding hadn't suffered tyre failures.

In addition, you cite several races which comprise of less than 50% of the overall calendar. Those races were not a reflection of the season as a whole. You also are leaving out that at COTA, it was MM's race to lose, and short of mechanical failure/crashing, he was not going to lose that race. Lorenzo finished over 6 seconds behind, and MM was cruising the last lap turning in a time that was 3 seconds slower than his prior laps. Had he rode at normal pace, Lorenzo would have been somewhere between 9 and 10 seconds down the road.

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For all practical purposes, COTA has always been a race for second place. Lorenzo vs 18 other riders to determine who'd finish behind Marquez. In 2015 he came in 4th, last year he was 2nd which is practically a win in my book. Like coming 2nd at Phillip Island against a field that includes Stoner.

The answer is quite simple: the Michelin front is better suited for Rossi, and while he had problems in some of the cooler weather races, they were nowhere near as pronounced as Lorenzo's due to his ability to generate heat in the front. Sure Lorenzo prefers the edge treated tires, but his record is such that he has done well even without edge grip tires. Michelin made a shoddy front tire for 2016 and that combined with track temperatures had a lot to do with Lorenzo's inconsistent performances.

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Lorenzo's riding style requires him to have good front end feel and he struggles in low grip conditions irrespective of whether its wet or not. But if we blame subpar performances on the tyres then perhaps we ought to also credit superlative performances to the tyre instead of the man.

I wouldn't go into mental strength which IMO is not an issue for someone like Lorenzo. His problems were primarily an outcome of weaknesses of his inch-perfect technique in less-than-ideal conditions.

As far as Michelin is concerned, while some things are simply not acceptable, like tyre failures or inconsistent build quality, in general, the composition of the tyre ought to suit the average or mode of the range. Beyond that its the rider's responsibility to adapt to it.

Michelin had two main objectives this season. First, avoid screwups (at which they were only partially successful) and second, post times competitive with those posted on Bridgestones (at which they were quite successful). All in all, given that this was their first season after a long long hiatus from the sport, I think Michelin's done fairly well overall.

moto moron said:

Still not owning up to your BS. The only highly knowledge person here that doesn't post with ton of bias is Arrabbi.

Right, you still count Petrucci as "a lot of riders". Interesting math.

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Arrab has called you out on your stupidity quite often. Why, in another topic he just did so if you care to look.

P.S. Reading comprehension still is not your strong suit. You should leave the discussion for the adults and go back to the kiddie table so you can draw yellow 46's all over the table.

JKant said:

.....
As far as Michelin is concerned, while some things are simply not acceptable, like tyre failures or inconsistent build quality, in general, the composition of the tyre ought to suit the average or mode of the range. Beyond that its the rider's responsibility to adapt to it.

All in all, given that this was their first season after a long long hiatus from the sport, I think Michelin's done fairly well overall.

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This seems a bit weird to say some things are not acceptable, but Michelin has done fairly well. If these were street tires, Michelin would be getting sued all over the place for their de-laminating tires. People could have been seriously hurt with their tire failures this year. If it was not MotoGP, where we expect unreasonable danger, Michelin would have been dragged through the flying rubber courts of public opinion and tort.

JKant said:

Lorenzo's riding style requires him to have good front end feel and he struggles in low grip conditions irrespective of whether its wet or not. But if we blame subpar performances on the tyres then perhaps we ought to also credit superlative performances to the tyre instead of the man.

I wouldn't go into mental strength which IMO is not an issue for someone like Lorenzo. His problems were primarily an outcome of weaknesses of his inch-perfect technique in less-than-ideal conditions.

As far as Michelin is concerned, while some things are simply not acceptable, like tyre failures or inconsistent build quality, in general, the composition of the tyre ought to suit the average or mode of the range. Beyond that its the rider's responsibility to adapt to it.

All in all, given that this was their first season after a long long hiatus from the sport, I think Michelin's done fairly well overall.

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Tires play a much larger roll in outcomes in racing than anyone wants to admit. It's that way across multiple race series. I've already had that conversation with a rep for one of the larger tire suppliers of Formula 1 from the past. The behind the scenes stuff that goes on with regards to tires would probably shock most fans who tend to put little thought into the tires in so far as what the writing on the sidewall says, or even track signage for that matter. In a spec series, you're designing the car or bike for the specific tire at hand. Everything from chassis design to suspension design to engine mapping is contingent on having 1) data from the tire and how it performs under the various situations on track along with weather/temperature/track surface and 2) having a consistently manufactured tire.

Michelin failed miserably on the second count. You cannot make a good faith claim that they did fairly well overall in 2016 based on the catastrophic tire failures that occurred, and the dangerous front tire design they had. Michelin failed to prepare properly for the 2016 MotoGP season, and it was very lucky circuits tend to be as safe as they are these days otherwise you may have had a death or two due to their piss poor tire design. You know what inconsistent tire manufacture does for the racing? Spices things up. It was why Pirelli manufactured such a .... tire for F1 from 2011 through 2016. Dorna was keen on doing something similar IIRC, but it wasn't followed through upon at that time.

Iamapony said:

This seems a bit weird to say some things are not acceptable, but Michelin has done fairly well.

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I see them as akin to rookies in the class. There's a learning curve and some mistakes are perhaps inevitable. As long as they show promise and steady improvement over the season, it bodes well for the future.

JPSLotus said:

Tires play a much larger roll in outcomes in racing than anyone wants to admit.

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No disputes here. Plays about as much of a role as the bike as a whole I'd say.

But being a spec tyre series, its also one of those things that cannot be changed. As far as the rider is concerned, he needs to set up the bike as best as possible and then ride around the residual problems.

Michelin failed miserably on the second count. You cannot make a good faith claim that they did fairly well overall in 2016 based on the catastrophic tire failures that occurred, and the dangerous front tire design they had. Michelin failed to prepare properly for the 2016 MotoGP season, and it was very lucky circuits tend to be as safe as they are these days otherwise you may have had a death or two due to their piss poor tire design. You know what inconsistent tire manufacture does for the racing? Spices things up.

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The learning process involves both design and manufacture. Were the inconsistencies there by design? To liven up the series? I imagine we'll find out this season.

In 2016, Michelin were shipping in massive numbers of tyres and tyre options to each round and I can.. understand how Michelin's production end might have had trouble coping with the workload. This year they will have gobs of data from last year to work with. Plus only standard tyre options are required (no intermediates) so this year is what I'll judge them on.

JKant said:

I see them as akin to rookies in the class. There's a learning curve and some mistakes are perhaps inevitable. As long as they show promise and steady improvement over the season, it bodes well for the future.

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Maybe they've changed - but recall if you will, how consistently they were raked over the coals in the period when Bridgestones dominated and no SNSs were allowed. Michelin seemed incapable of improving.

JKant said:

No disputes here. Plays about as much of a role as the bike as a whole I'd say.

But being a spec tyre series, its also one of those things that cannot be changed. As far as the rider is concerned, he needs to set up the bike as best as possible and then ride around the residual problems.


The learning process involves both design and manufacture. Were the inconsistencies there by design? To liven up the series? I imagine we'll find out this season.

In 2016, Michelin were shipping in massive numbers of tyres and tyre options to each round and I can.. understand how Michelin's production end might have had trouble coping with the workload. This year they will have gobs of data from last year to work with. Plus only standard tyre options are required (no intermediates) so this year is what I'll judge them on.

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For a top tier racing series, the tires Michelin brought from a safety point were unacceptable.

There is NO defense you can make for the quality of tires Michelin produced and thought supplying the teams with in 2016 was acceptable. Do not even try to make excuses for them the way you are doing. Trying to rationalize and justify it shows an incredible amount of ignorance on your part.

JPSLotus said:

For a top tier racing series, the tires Michelin brought from a safety point were unacceptable.

There is NO defense you can make for the quality of tires Michelin produced and thought supplying the teams with in 2016 was acceptable. Do not even try to make excuses for them the way you are doing. Trying to rationalize and justify it shows an incredible amount of ignorance on your part.

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There you go stating your opinions as facts again and calling folks ignorant if they don't agree with you.

There was a PowerSlide meetup a while back so who here has met JPS in person? Tell us about this guy... he is fascinating. Did he seem like the type of guy who grew up in a bubble? Parents didn't let him play with other kids?

JPSLotus said:

For a top tier racing series, the tires Michelin brought from a safety point were unacceptable.

There is NO defense you can make for the quality of tires Michelin produced and thought supplying the teams with in 2016 was acceptable. Do not even try to make excuses for them the way you are doing. Trying to rationalize and justify it shows an incredible amount of ignorance on your part.

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Lap records were broken all season, races won in record times. Not bad for first season back after all that time out.

Daniboy said:

Lap records were broken all season, races won in record times. Not bad for first season back after all that time out.

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I think they also upped the fuel capacity for the bikes in 2016 over 2015. Still, trying to build such a performance tyre for tracks they had very little useable data for would be no easy task for anybody. They would have spent a shitload of money to bring so many different tyre options to each round just to make sure they had something that worked reasonably well.

moto moron said:

I think risking rider safety with subpar tire construction is acceptable.

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Fixed.

JKant said:

I see them as akin to rookies in the class. There's a learning curve and some mistakes are perhaps inevitable. As long as they show promise and steady improvement over the season, it bodes well for the future.

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Bit the same for me.

I thought that 2016 started poorly for Michelin and did get better but that they still have a lot of work to be done.

Always said that I will judge Michelin on 2017 as then they have no excuses as they have recent and relevant data from which to work.

JKant said:

But being a spec tyre series, its also one of those things that cannot be changed. As far as the rider is concerned, he needs to set up the bike as best as possible and then ride around the residual problems.

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But as we know, throughout the season build was changed as were some compound availabilities etc which kind of renders and bike design changes to suit a tyre as being a bit pointless if/when that tyre design changes.

As a fan of tyre wars, I would rather Michelin introduce new tyres (if they have to) whilst at the same time leaving the older designs fully available (not to mention bring in more manufacturers, but then I also live in the world of today where that will not happen)

Daniboy said:

Lap records were broken all season, races won in record times. Not bad for first season back after all that time out.

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Nice to see your standards are so low that lap records mean more than a properly made front tire.