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Gaz · Mar 14, 2017

p4p1 said:
Riding around in last place for a short time in horrible conditions during 2016(with the regulations) on tyres you can't get any feeling from with your style isn't as bad as being beaten across the line on CRT bikes on a full factory bike. Don't let that distract you from the fact Lorenzo ended up finishing in the top 10.

As they say, the means justifies the end result and the sheer FACT is that Lorenzo scored a point and as we all know, 1 point can win you a championship so the failures (if we wish to use that term) in that race are those that scored 0 points.

And discussion of Assen cannot go without GO JACK.

JPSLotus said:
And really Vudu, Lorenzo has had some great races in the wet.

The tires were a huge problem for him with the Assen race. It was not a lack effort as you so flippantly try to put it.

Absolutely JPS.

Fact (as we know) are that Lorenzo has won races in wet conditions and has ridden in wet after some significant falls.

The issues he experienced in 2016 were tyre related and he rode as best he felt comfortable within the circumstances, which interestingly despite the 'haters amongst us', did not result in any falls which cannot be said of all

povol · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
Unfavorable is relative, but compared to the other non-factory (and some factory) bikes the Repsol is always a top bike on the grid. There's no way around it, Marquez has not ridden a truly bad bike thus far in his GP career. He's like the privileged son of a billionaire crying that daddy only gave him an Aventador LP750-4 Superveloce to drive to school instead of a LaFerrari Aperta. Riders like Crutchlow, Smith, Espargaro (both of them), Iannone, Miller, and Redding would KILL for that Repsol Honda. Oh it had some acceleration problems last year? Lol, give Marc a Tech 3 Yamaha, Pramac Ducati, or any bike other than the factory M1 and it'll change his perspective of "acceleration woes".

This debate only started because JPS seems to consider the RCV and GSX-RR equal machinery to claim Marquez hasn't had a huge advantage over Vinales.

At the start of 2016, The Honda was behind Yamaha by a large margin, slightly behind the Ducati and on par with Suzuki. I'm not sure what your definition of a bad bike is, but Marquez has not had the best bike except for 14, and we saw what hapeens when he does. Since his arrival in GP, he has ridden an inferior bike in 3 of the 4 years, and looks like the 5th year is coming

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

povol said:
At the start of 2016, The Honda was behind Yamaha by a large margin, slightly behind the Ducati and on par with Suzuki. I'm not sure what your definition of a bad bike is, but Marquez has not had the best bike except for 14, and we saw what hapeens when he does. Since his arrival in GP, he has ridden an inferior bike in 3 of the 4 years, and looks like the 5th year is coming

If you guys want to believe Marquez has been struggling with a terrible bike for the past two years then go right ahead. I could say Lorenzo and Rossi had a bad bike in 2016 because of the unusual number of cold & wet races where the M1 struggled with getting heat in the tires. The RCV's acceleration issues weren't a major problem at every GP.

Marquez has had it good in his GP career, I can't think of anyone right now who has had it better. I was going to say Lorenzo since he got a factory M1 when he made it to the grid, but he wasn't the team's #1 rider so even he didn't get rose pedals thrown at his feet the way Marquez did.

JPSLotus · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
If you guys want to believe Marquez has been struggling with a terrible bike for the past two years then go right ahead. I could say Lorenzo and Rossi had a bad bike in 2016 because of the unusual number of cold & wet races where the M1 struggled with getting heat in the tires. The RCV's acceleration issues weren't a major problem at every GP.

Marquez has had it good in his GP career, I can't think of anyone right now who has had it better. I was going to say Lorenzo since he got a factory M1 when he made it to the grid, but he wasn't the team's #1 rider so even he didn't get rose pedals thrown at his feet the way Marquez did.

As usual, you know nothing of the sport you profess to be a fan of.

The RCV's difficulty has been well documented. Your protestations remind me somewhat of the climate change denial crowd, where no matter the existing documentation, it is easily dismissed with a wave of the hand in favor of holding to ill-conceived notions of no merit.

I could name a few who have had it better than Marquez, but your usual blinders prevent you from making any informed observation on this front. Kind of ironic you are a Rossi fan and can say with what I assume to be a straight face that you can't "think of anyone right now who has had it better". But you never have been one to let the facts prevent you from drawing uninformed conclusions.

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

JPSLotus said:
As usual, you know nothing of the sport you profess to be a fan of.

The RCV's difficulty has been well documented. Your protestations remind me somewhat of the climate change denial crowd, where no matter the existing documentation, it is easily dismissed with a wave of the hand in favor of holding to ill-conceived notions of no merit.

I could name a few who have had it better than Marquez, but your usual blinders prevent you from making any informed observation on this front. Kind of ironic you are a Rossi fan and can say with what I assume to be a straight face that you can't "think of anyone right now who has had it better". But you never have been one to let the facts prevent you from drawing uninformed conclusions.

Every bike on the grid has difficulty that has been well documented. There are plenty of bikes that had far more issues than the Repsol Hondas.

Funny you would bring up climate change, that would be fill an entire thread on it's own. But considering the Earth is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old, that "documentation" you speak of is only covering an extremely small period of time. We know this planet went through heating and cooling periods long before humans existed. Now all of a sudden we think we're the reason for climate change or accelerated climate change!? Ok, but there's two trillion dollar industries on either side of the argument that want to convince you it's real or fake. The green industry funds scientist that will make sure their "studies" support the fact that you should get ride of that Harley and get an electric scooter.

I wouldn't say Rossi had it easier than Marquez has because when Rossi joined the 500cc class he was part of a private team with factory support. Rossi didn't quite get the red carpet laid out for him in 2000 the way they did for Marquez in 2013.

#22 · Mar 15, 2017

I see you've steered away from answering how Rossi supposedly tried harder than Lorenzo in races where he finished behind CRT bikes

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

#22 said:
I see you've steered away from answering how Rossi supposedly tried harder than Lorenzo in races where he finished behind CRT bikes

Your argument doesn't make any sense. Lorenzo purposely rode behind everyone at Assen. He wasn't racing and was passed by everyone, he purposely went to the back of the grid and advanced only by other riders crashing. Not to mention, Lorenzo was riding a factory M1... not a GP11/12. For a Lorenzo fan, you sure seem to want to keep this thread focused on his embarrassing lack of effort at Assen last year.

#22 · Mar 15, 2017

Riding slowly because you have no confidence with the tyres/grip level is not the same as purposefully going to the back of the grid.

Lorenzo was on tyres he didn't like, where is that different from Rossi rising a bike he didn't like?

Yes I'm a Lorenzo fan, but it's just too amusing watching you avoid answering any direct questions about Rossi like the rabid fan you are

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

#22 said:
Riding slowly because you have no confidence with the tyres/grip level is not the same as purposefully going to the back of the grid.

Lorenzo was on tyres he didn't like, where is that different from Rossi rising a bike he didn't like?

Yes I'm a Lorenzo fan, but it's just too amusing watching you avoid answering any direct questions about Rossi like the rabid fan you are

Because Rossi didn't go to the very back of the grid on the bike he didn't like.

Edit: Also, at Assen everyone was on the same tires coping with the same conditions. Riders with less talent and worse equipment than Lorenzo put forth more effort to fight for positions.

p4p1 · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
I wouldn't say Rossi had it easier than Marquez has because when Rossi joined the 500cc class he was part of a private team with factory support. Rossi didn't quite get the red carpet laid out for him in 2000 the way they did for Marquez in 2013.

That you wrote this is just awesome. Like you sat down and thought I've ....... got you here JPS. Rossi rode for a 'privateer' team in 2000.

Rossi was given a full factory bike in 2000, with a full factory team, with a world championship winning crew chief. Rossi has routinely stated this was his favourite set up. He has said he wishes to have this set up again. Like Marquez at first he didn't have any say in the development(because he hadn't ridden a 500 before) of the bike but by mid season by all reports and accounts was Hondas main man. JB has spoken about how the less experienced factory team were dropping the ball with the bike and how his more experienced world championship winning team were doing their own thing within the factory and with their proven track record doing a better job. Every choice after that including Ducati was Rossis, the red carpet has been rolled out for him like no other. When was the last time a mid 30s rider was parachuted onto a top factory bike for having an epic failure on a race winning bike? That's after his legendary development skills failed to produce any positive results.

p4p1 · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
Your argument doesn't make any sense. Lorenzo purposely rode behind everyone at Assen. He wasn't racing and was passed by everyone, he purposely went to the back of the grid and advanced only by other riders crashing. Not to mention, Lorenzo was riding a factory M1... not a GP11/12. For a Lorenzo fan, you sure seem to want to keep this thread focused on his embarrassing lack of effort at Assen last year.

Lorenzo was riding a factory m1 on tyres he couldn't get any feel at all from, during the era of unified electronics which tightened the gap especially in the wet immensely. Rossi was riding a full factory bike he personally developed and was beaten by CRTs, I would be both my nuts that the difference between the GP11/12 and the poorly thought out CRTs is far far greater than the difference between the current m1 with unified software and the year old satellite bikes with unified software. Get your head out of your .... The CRTs were an embarrassment to the sport.

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

p4p1 said:
That you wrote this is just awesome. Like you sat down and thought I've ....... got you here JPS. Rossi rode for a 'privateer' team in 2000.

Rossi was given a full factory bike in 2000, with a full factory team, with a world championship winning crew chief. Rossi has routinely stated this was his favourite set up. He has said he wishes to have this set up again. Like Marquez at first he didn't have any say in the development(because he hadn't ridden a 500 before) of the bike but by mid season by all reports and accounts was Hondas main man. JB has spoken about how the less experienced factory team were dropping the ball with the bike and how his more experienced world championship winning team were doing their own thing within the factory and with their proven track record doing a better job. Every choice after that including Ducati was Rossis, the red carpet has been rolled out for him like no other. When was the last time a mid 30s rider was parachuted onto a top factory bike for having an epic failure on a race winning bike? That's after his legendary development skills failed to produce any positive results.

You're attempting to twist the argument. It doesn't matter if Rossi preferred his team set up in 2000, the fact remains he didn't join the 500cc as the main rider on the factory Repsol team. I stated he was part of a factory backed private team, yes the support he had was great... but still not quite what Marquez received.

When was the last time a rider with 7 championships in the premier class was denied a factory ride? Rossi had already put in the work to prove himself as a top rider and it wasn't a big gamble for Yamaha to take him back. They're certainly benefiting from their decision to put him back on the M1.

This debate about who had it easier "Rossi or Marquez" even further highlights my original point that Vinales had to get to where he is the hard way and some people here say he's unworthy of any hype!! I had to call BS on that!!!

#22 · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
Because Rossi didn't go to the very back of the grid on the bike he didn't like.

You just cannot do it can you? You cannot admit that by your own statements and standards, Rossi sucked at times too.

Edit: Also, at Assen everyone was on the same tires coping with the same conditions. Riders with less talent and worse equipment than Lorenzo put forth more effort to fight for positions.

And at Assen 2012 all bikes were on the same tyres coping with the same dry conditions, yet Rossi finished last but for James Ellison. He got beaten by satellite bikes, and ART, FTR, BQR and Ioda CRT bikes so in your own words he himself got beaten by riders with less talent and worse equipment on the same tyres. Let's see how your brain works around that one

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

#22 said:
You just cannot do it can you? You cannot admit that by your own statements and standards, Rossi sucked at times too.

And at Assen 2012 all bikes were on the same tyres coping with the same dry conditions, yet Rossi finished last but for James Ellison. He got beaten by satellite bikes, and ART, FTR, BQR and Ioda CRT bikes so in your own words he himself got beaten by riders with less talent and worse equipment on the same tyres. Let's see how your brain works around that one

Well for one, I don't remember Assen 2012 so I'd have to go back and watch it to see if Rossi was sitting up, cruising, and staring at the marshals every lap hoping they'd pull a red flag out of their ....

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

#22 said:
You just cannot do it can you? You cannot admit that by your own statements and standards, Rossi sucked at times too.

And at Assen 2012 all bikes were on the same tyres coping with the same dry conditions, yet Rossi finished last but for James Ellison. He got beaten by satellite bikes, and ART, FTR, BQR and Ioda CRT bikes so in your own words he himself got beaten by riders with less talent and worse equipment on the same tyres. Let's see how your brain works around that one

I just watched the rewind. I forgot about Lorenzo getting Bautista'd that race.

Anyway, I saw Rossi made at least one pass on Hayden. That was 1 pass more than Lorenzo made last year at Assen so effort easily goes to Valentino.

Oh #22... you're dirty... real dirty.

Rossi had another terrible showing on the Ducati. Having chunked his rear tire around the halfway mark #46 pulled off the racing line, raised his hand and dropped back behind the CRT field. The nine-time world champion pulled into the pits for a new rear tire, but with all the attrition, Rossi was only able to emerge and collect a point in 13th.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2012/06/article/motogp-assen-tt-results-2012/

Yeah, don't ever compare Rossi @ Assen 2012 to Lorenzo @ Assen 2016 again.

p4p1 · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
I just watched the rewind. I forgot about Lorenzo getting Bautista'd that race.

Anyway, I saw Rossi made at least one pass on Hayden. That was 1 pass more than Lorenzo made last year at Assen so effort easily goes to Valentino.

Oh #22... you're dirty... real dirty.

Rossi had another terrible showing on the Ducati. Having chunked his rear tire around the halfway mark #46 pulled off the racing line, raised his hand and dropped back behind the CRT field. The nine-time world champion pulled into the pits for a new rear tire, but with all the attrition, Rossi was only able to emerge and collect a point in 13th.

MotoGP Assen TT Results 2012 - Motorcycle USA

Yeah, don't ever compare Rossi @ Assen 2012 to Lorenzo @ Assen 2016 ever again.

Again Lorenzo didn't finish last, he didn't finish last out of everybody that actually finished the race. He must've made a few overtakes to end up in front of a few people. So your argument is totally wrong as usual.

#22 · Mar 15, 2017

Your hate knows no bounds MV, as I say yoyu just cannot admit that even once, Rossi is guilty of anything.

As p4p1 said, pull your head out of your arse

p4p1 · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
You're attempting to twist the argument. It doesn't matter if Rossi preferred his team set up in 2000, the fact remains he didn't join the 500cc as the main rider on the factory Repsol team. I stated he was part of a factory backed private team, yes the support he had was great... but still not quite what Marquez received.

When was the last time a rider with 7 championships in the premier class was denied a factory ride? Rossi had already put in the work to prove himself as a top rider and it wasn't a big gamble for Yamaha to take him back. They're certainly benefiting from their decision to put him back on the M1.

This debate about who had it easier "Rossi or Marquez" even further highlights my original point that Vinales had to get to where he is the hard way and some people here say he's unworthy of any hype!! I had to call BS on that!!!

How do you know it wasn't quite what Marquez received? His team for one was far more experienced and proven than Marquezs team. JB had much more sway with HRC than any of Marquezs crew had development wise.

If Marquez cruised around the track barely applying himself for 2 years(he wouldn't like Stoner he would've found a way to win on that bike) you would be screaming blue murder about unfair treatment. It doesn't matter what he did years before he was helped by Carmelo back to Yamaha, in racing you're only as good as your last race as Rossi spent 36 races embarrassing himself against his more talented rivals.

JPSLotus · Mar 15, 2017

moto vudu said:
Every bike on the grid has difficulty that has been well documented. There's plenty of bikes that had far more issues than the Repsol Hondas.

Funny you would bring up climate change, that would be fill an entire thread on it's own. But considering the Earth is estimated to be 4.5 billion years old, that "documentation" you speak of is only covering an extremely small period of time. We know this planet went through heating and cooling periods long before humans existed. Now all of a sudden we think we're the reason for climate change or accelerated climate change!? Ok, but there's two trillion dollar industries on either side of the argument that want to convince you it's real or fake. The green industry funds scientist that will make sure their "studies" support the fact that you should get ride of that Harley and get an electric scooter.

I wouldn't say Rossi had it easier than Marquez has because when Rossi joined the 500cc class he was part of a private team with factory support. Rossi didn't quite get the red carpet laid out for him in 2000 the way they did for Marquez in 2013.

Again, that is incorrect. While no bike is without issue, the RCV's issues were far more significant than any other team's in particular the engine design.

I'd like to just apologize to all of the non-American posters here for Vudu's middle paragraph. I've no doubt some of you are aghast at reading what he wrote. But rest assured, while Vudu is free to hold onto his ill-informed beliefs no matter what evidence exists to the contrary, he does not speak for all Americans on the topic of climate change...thankfully I would say. Those of his ilk are on the wrong side of history as usual.

The Nastro Azzurro was a factory team in everything but name only Vudu. This has already been discussed at length here, whether a red carpet was rolled out or not is a trivial matter that only serves as a red herring with what the reality was of the team and the support it was getting from HRC.

moto vudu · Mar 15, 2017

#22 said:
Your hate knows no bounds MV, as I say yoyu just cannot admit that even once, Rossi is guilty of anything.

As p4p1 said, pull your head out of your arse

You referred me to Assen 2012 where Rossi was racing and chunked his tire, what exactly do you find him guilty of during that race?

Rossi was guilty of intentionally running Marquez wide at Sepang 2015.

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