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moto vudu · Mar 14, 2017

p4p1 said:
Riding around in last place for a short time in horrible conditions during 2016(with the regulations) on tyres you can't get any feeling from with your style isn't as bad as being beaten across the line on CRT bikes on a full factory bike. Don't let that distract you from the fact Lorenzo ended up finishing in the top 10.

Lorenzo didn't choose to ride at the back for a short time, he stayed back there until the red flag and only advanced into the points when enough riders crashed. None of the riders had good feeling in standing water, difference is they did their job and worked to figure out ways to make their bike work best as they could.

moto vudu · Mar 14, 2017

p4p1 said:
But the Ducati was a race winning bike and Rossi is GOAT of feedback and development. I don't understand why the Ducati turned to such ....... when the 'GOAT' came. All Stoner had to do was try harder to win the championship on the bike and he would've. Interesting you blame Ducati for Rossis epic failure but it's totally Marquezs fault the Honda has struggled for the last couple of years despite a huge amount of evidence from world champions that Honda pay more attention to their engineers than their riders.

Interesting you mention 'when Rossi decided to leave Ducati' as a defence but make no mention that by Assen Lorenzo had already decided to leave Yamaha.

It's been said a million times, but in 2010 Stoner was struggling to win with Ducati. So the rider with the best knowledge of how to ride that bike was struggling on it... it was a bad bike way before Rossi ever threw a leg over it.

Even if Lorenzo had decided to leave Yamaha by Assen 2016, that's no excuse for riding at the very back of the grid. I said a few posts up, he's a good enough rider to ride in a points earning position without having to take too much risk. He didn't even want to do that.

#22 · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
However, after all his effort failed to improve his results he stopped risking a lot to pick up a 7th, 6th, or 5th position when in the grand scheme those positions didn't matter to him. He never completely gave up on racing, he just started to preserve his body when he decided he was going to leave Ducati.

Ok i'll entertain this as I'm free right now. Yes of course comparing ANYTHING to Rossi is flawed in your mind because you are so biased towards Rossi. You can't even admit his failings.

In more than one race, he finished behind CRT bikes and in the case of USA 2012, he finished 2 seconds ahead of last places James Ellison on a POS CRT bike. Ok, you say he gave up once he decided to leave Ducati, well maybe, just maybe Lorenzo decided to do that same after deciding month earlier to leave Yamaha. And again while you say he wasnt trying, he finished the race and picked up points that Rossi, Dovi, Iannone and countless others didn't.

You may believe what you write, but very few do here.

Again, he never cruised around at the back of the pack (any rider that chooses to purposely drop out of points earning positions should never have lined up on the grid).

He cruised around at Valencia 2012 for one. In conditions similar to Assen 2016

p4p1 said:
Riding around in last place for a short time in horrible conditions during 2016(with the regulations) on tyres you can't get any feeling from with your style isn't as bad as being beaten across the line on CRT bikes on a full factory bike. Don't let that distract you from the fact Lorenzo ended up finishing in the top 10.

Exactly

moto vudu said:
Lorenzo didn't choose to ride at the back for a short time, he stayed back there until the red flag and only advanced into the points when enough riders crashed. None of the riders had good feeling in standing water, difference is they did their job and worked to figure out ways to make their bike work best as they could.

And what about the ones that didn't? Rossi, Dovi, Iannone to name a few as I said above.

moto vudu · Mar 14, 2017

#22 said:
Ok i'll entertain this as I'm free right now. Yes of course comparing ANYTHING to Rossi is flawed in your mind because you are so biased towards Rossi. You can't even admit his failings.

In more than one race, he finished behind CRT bikes and in the case of USA 2012, he finished 2 seconds ahead of last places James Ellison on a POS CRT bike. Ok, you say he gave up once he decided to leave Ducati, well maybe, just maybe Lorenzo decided to do that same after deciding month earlier to leave Yamaha. And again while you say he wasnt trying, he finished the race and picked up points that Rossi, Dovi, Iannone and countless others didn't.

You may believe what you write, but very few do here.

He cruised around at Valencia 2012 for one. In conditions similar to Assen 2016

Exactly

And what about the ones that didn't? Rossi, Dovi, Iannone to name a few as I said above.

It's not even an issue to admit or talk about instances where Rossi screwed up or failed. The point of FAILING is to at least TRY and to LEARN. Rossi has learned from his experiences on the Ducati and learned from any .... ups while at Yamaha so at 38 years of age is still one of the best riders on the grid and still improving. He's not supposed to be able to do what he's doing and he wouldn't be able to do it if he never had to go through adversity.

Contrast that to Lorenzo facing adversity in the wet and not trying to overcome it so he can perform better in future wet races.

michaelm · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
Lorenzo didn't choose to ride at the back for a short time, he stayed back there until the red flag and only advanced into the points when enough riders crashed. None of the riders had good feeling in standing water, difference is they did their job and worked to figure out ways to make their bike work best as they could.

You have answered your own question.

They red-flagged the race because the conditions were too dangerous for everyone for the race to continue. Lorenzo with the problems presented by his riding style on the michelin wets simply made that assessment a few laps earlier.

moto vudu · Mar 14, 2017

michaelm said:
You have answered your own question.

They red-flagged the race because the conditions were too dangerous for everyone for the race to continue. Lorenzo with the problems presented by his riding style on the michelin wets simply made that assessment a few laps earlier[/B].

ROFL! They didn't have to red flag that race and it turned out to be more dangerous after the restart. For Lorenzo to make that assessment and decide to stop racing and go to the back... hell of a gamble.

JPSLotus · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
If Marc's RCV wasn't the best bike at Mugello, it was 2nd best. Rossi had the worst bike that day. Marc's RCV was still better than the GSX-RR, GP16, LCR RCV, Tech 3 M1s, etc,. Even with his acceleration issues, the bike was strong in other areas (corner entry & top speed).

This is literally the same stupid argument that people tried making regarding the Ducati GP07.

2nd best based on what?

A result?

Incredibly flawed thinking as usual MV.

moto vudu · Mar 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
This is literally the same stupid argument that people tried making regarding the Ducati GP07.

2nd best based on what?

A result?

Incredibly flawed thinking as usual MV.

Ok, so you don't agree with my opinion. In your opinion, which bikes at Mugello 2016 had more performance potential than Marc's RCV?

JPSLotus · Mar 14, 2017

And really Vudu, Lorenzo has had some great races in the wet.

The tires were a huge problem for him with the Assen race. It was not a lack effort as you so flippantly try to put it.

JPSLotus · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
Ok, so you don't agree with my opinion. In your opinion, which bikes at Mugello 2016 had more performance potential than Marc's RCV?

The original discussion was about how easy or not easy it was to ride the RCV.

Just a FYI.

moto vudu · Mar 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
The original discussion was about how easy or not easy it was to ride the RCV.

Just a FYI.

No, the original discussion was me defending MV while his results riding the Suzuki were compared to what MM has accomplished with HRC.

But anyway, tell me... which bikes are better than Marc's RCV.

JPSLotus · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
No, the original discussion was me defending MV while his results riding the Suzuki were compared to what MM has accomplished with HRC.

But anyway, tell me... which bikes are better than Marc's RCV.

As an entire package, the Yamaha, Ducati, and Suzuki are better bikes overall.

MM would win championships on any one of those machines, which is really what it comes down to.

Can you say that about MV? No.

#22 · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
It's not even an issue to admit or talk about instances where Rossi screwed up or failed. The point of FAILING is to at least TRY and to LEARN. Rossi has learned from his experiences on the Ducati and learned from any .... ups while at Yamaha so at 38 years of age is still one of the best riders on the grid and still improving. He's not supposed to be able to do what he's doing and he wouldn't be able to do it if he never had to go through adversity.

Contrast that to Lorenzo facing adversity in the wet and not trying to overcome it so he can perform better in future wet races.

Again, I (and he) admit that he is struggling with confidence in wet races. But to say he has given up and doesn't try to improve is frankly more a reflection of you lack of knowledge than his ability.

Once again, Valentino Rossi GAVE UP trying to improve the Ducati about 2 races into the 2012 season, so it has everything to do with it. But of course you still refuse to make any criticism of Rossi. It's actually very amusing...

#22 · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
But anyway, tell me... which bikes are better than Marc's RCV.

In terms of power delivery, I'd argue every other bike on the grid is...

p4p1 · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
Lorenzo didn't choose to ride at the back for a short time, he stayed back there until the red flag and only advanced into the points when enough riders crashed. None of the riders had good feeling in standing water, difference is they did their job and worked to figure out ways to make their bike work best as they could.

So now you're implying that Rossi chose to ride at the back during his time with Ducati? And that is somehow better than Lorenzos Assen ride in which he picked up points and still seemed to ride at his best? I could be wrong but didn't Lorenzos conservative race pick him up more points than Rossis plan?

p4p1 · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
It's been said a million times, but in 2010 Stoner was struggling to win with Ducati. So the rider with the best knowledge of how to ride that bike was struggling on it... it was a bad bike way before Rossi ever threw a leg over it.

Even if Lorenzo had decided to leave Yamaha by Assen 2016, that's no excuse for riding at the very back of the grid. I said a few posts up, he's a good enough rider to ride in a points earning position without having to take too much risk. He didn't even want to do that.

It was a race winning bike before Rossi threw a leg over. In fact it won 3 of the last 5 or 6 races in 2010. It's well documented that Ducati did everything that Rossi and JB requested. Even going so far as to build a twin bar aluminium frame. So if Ducati can do all that for Rossi but he still can't produce results how is that their fault but Honda listening to their engineers over their riders is somehow Marquezs fault when the bike turns out less than great.

But you just made that very excuse for Rossi not risking his body. You stated that Rossi had already signed for Yamaha so didn't care about his Ducati results. But again he took a good amount of points so he did do just that. If there were still CRT bikes on the grid I doubt he would've been last or second to last. Again a position which he didn't finish.

moto vudu · Mar 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
As an entire package, the Yamaha, Ducati, and Suzuki are better bikes overall.

MM would win championships on any one of those machines, which is really what it comes down to.

Can you say that about MV? No.

I disagree with the Ducati and Suzuki being better bikes overall.

I don't know that MM would win championship on other bikes, but I'd love to see him try. Bikes like the M1 probably wouldn't react well to his wild corner entry style so Yamaha would have to make big changes try to accommodate him.

#22 · Mar 14, 2017

Marquez is like Stoner. You put him in a shopping cart and he'd be a contender.....

michaelm · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
ROFL! They didn't have to red flag that race and it turned out to be more dangerous after the restart. For Lorenzo to make that assessment and decide to stop racing and go to the back... hell of a gamble.

What part of RD red-flagging the race do you not understand? And what reason did they have for doing so other than conditions being deemed too dangerous for the race to continue?

Iamapony · Mar 14, 2017

moto vudu said:
I don't know that MM would win championship on other bikes, but I'd love to see him try. Bikes like the M1 probably wouldn't react well to his wild corner entry style so Yamaha would have to make big changes try to accommodate him.

This is an interesting supposition. I am not sure the Honda is "designed" for his style. The bike was for Dani until Marc rode the same bike faster. I think he just throws the Honda around more to get it ahead of the competition. He sure brakes hard. I bet he would ride the Yamaha like Rossi, if he won races. Otherwise, he will push harder and that means he will look more like a Stoner than a Lorenzo. Stoner didn't ride the Honda like Dani, either. They both could toss the Yamaha, if necessary, i am pretty darn sure.

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