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Arrabbiata1
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Although the crossplane design of the M1 is patented by Yamaha, Suzuki run a counter rotating crank and a similar firing order. Visually, both bikes look planted and if anything, the GSX-RR more settled of the two in the turn.
I take your point about the Yam and the Duc - although the M1 does mimic the characteristics of a V4 through the long bang engine configuration.
Coming from an armchair somewhere deep in Texas.
...Wait, there it is again. You're being serious aren't you? Are you Nakamoto in disguise?
Aside from which, you do appreciate that favourable/'unfavourable' is a relative concept?
I'm honestly at a loss. I genuinely have no idea where to start with this - so I'll perhaps leave it to someone that can be bothered. At least it dispels the tiresome 2007 "Stoner only won it because...'" narrative.
However, if you're talking in terms of 2002 then I'd agree with you entirely.
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Unfavorable is relative, but compared to the other non-factory (and some factory) bikes the Repsol is always a top bike on the grid. There's no way around it, Marquez has not ridden a truly bad bike thus far in his GP career. He's like the privileged son of a billionaire crying that daddy only gave him an Aventador LP750-4 Superveloce to drive to school instead of a LaFerrari Aperta. Riders like Crutchlow, Smith, Espargaro (both of them), Iannone, Miller, and Redding would KILL for that Repsol Honda. Oh it had some acceleration problems last year? Lol, give Marc a Tech 3 Yamaha, Pramac Ducati, or any bike other than the factory M1 and it'll change his perspective of "acceleration woes".
This debate only started because JPS seems to consider the RCV and GSX-RR equal machinery to claim Marquez hasn't had a huge advantage over Vinales.
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Amen
You don't think MM would have won races on the Suzuki?
That Honda was evil, for everyone. Crutchlow prospered after he got the revamped chassis, which I think MM rejected; his choice of course. We had a thread on here for the first half of the season about Crutchlow crashing so much.
Honda of course apply the most resources and sometimes produce really dominant bikes, but are engineering led as has been said and can get it very wrong also. Some bloke called Valentino had rather strong opinions about them, and Mick Doohan is on the record as saying his main development role was to stop the Honda engineers from "improving" the bike.
I had reservations about MM's recklessness earlier in his career, and was pretty much in the "murder Marc" camp after the Willairot incident, but he is amazingly fast, and I haven't seen any signs that Vinales could do what he did in winning from the back of the grid in a moto 2 race. Sure his test times have been impressive but we have seen Stoner, and even Jorge in early testing for last season, dominate testing and not win the title.
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Would you kindly point to where I stated the RCV and GSX-RR are equal machinery? I never said such a thing and would appreciate it if you could not resort to duplicitous statements in an vain effort to try and shore up your already hapless arguments.
Whether any of the aforementioned would kill for a factory RCV or not is not relevant to the ease or lack of ease with which the RCV has been noted for the past several years. You may wish it were not true that the RCV is the most difficult bike to ride on the grid as far as the factory entries go, but it still remains as the most difficult bike to ride by all accounts. You are as usual conflating race wins/championship wins with ease of using the machinery in question...and this is the same ridiculous mentality that has persisted to this day sadly regarding first iteration of the Ducati 800 (GP07).
I have no doubt MM would be a multi-race winner on either a Tech 3 Yamaha or a Pramac Ducati. Championship winner I can't really say, and think it would be unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility. A pity there's no way to find out as I'm fairly comfortable in saying you would have a lot of egg on your face if he threw his leg over either ride for a full season. You as usual have no real understanding of Marquez's talent.
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Which makes them all their own worst enemy
Relative seems to be your favourite term as it always supports your bias. Lorenzo didn't try at Assen 2016 RELATIVE to Rossi on the Ducati, the Honda is a top bike RELATIVE to non factory bikes.
The fact is, you cannot compare ANY factory bike with a non factory counterpart. That's like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford. Sure, Marquez has had one of the top 2 (or 3) factory bikes but rarely has his been THE best factory bike outright. You just need to look at his team mates results to see that.
Compare that to 2002, when Honda undoubtedly DID have the best bike by a country mile, and even satellite riders won on it on their first outing (Barros).
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I said you seem to consider (not that you stated) the RCV and GSX-RR are equal because you compared MM's results to MV's.
If the RCV is the most difficult to ride it's because Marquez made it that way! Pedrosa called him out on it during an interview last year. Marquez chooses parts and a development direction that only he can cope with. I have no pity for him when he's bringing all this on himself to screw over every other Honda rider. At the end of the day, he still has the top team in MotoGP developing a bike specifically for HIM! That is privilege and Maverick never got that.
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Which makes them all their own worst enemy
Relative seems to be your favourite term as it always supports your bias. Lorenzo didn't try at Assen 2016 RELATIVE to Rossi on the Ducati, the Honda is a top bike RELATIVE to non factory bikes.
The fact is, you cannot compare ANY factory bike with a non factory counterpart. That's like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford. Sure, Marquez has had one of the top 2 (or 3) factory bikes but rarely has his been THE best factory bike outright. You just need to look at his team mates results to see that.
Compare that to 2002, when Honda undoubtedly DID have the best bike by a country mile, and even satellite riders won on it on their first outing (Barros).
Lorenzo didn't try at Assen 2016 relative to every other rider on the grid!
No, you can't look at Pedrosa's results because HRC is developing the bike only for Marquez. Pedrosa has disagreed with the direction development has been going every since Marquez arrived on the team. The RCV is the best bike that's made specifically for Marquez.
I guess it is similar to how Rossi screwed up the 2006 Yamaha.
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This site is pretty good when the discussions/arguments stick to racing. There are some literate posters who are passionate about their racers and racing. Trump sucks at racing, as far as I know.
Remember Mugello last year, when poor VR lost the usually unbreakable Yamaha engine? MM out rode JL and passed, but lost at the end because the rear spun up after corner exit. That MM bike definitely was not the best MotoGP bike that day. But, it had the best rider, imo. ;-P
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Fair point, and I apologise. I was using it as an example of how ridiculous some of MV's arguments are.
Yes that was a hell of a race!
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If Marc's RCV wasn't the best bike at Mugello, it was 2nd best. Rossi had the worst bike that day. Marc's RCV was still better than the GSX-RR, GP16, LCR RCV, Tech 3 M1s, etc,. Even with his acceleration issues, the bike was strong in other areas (corner entry & top speed).
My argument is sound, you just don't like Lorenzo being criticized even when he deserves it. He gave up at Assen 2016. A rider of his caliber should be able to easily settle for a 5-8th place position without having to risk too much... he didn't choose to do that. He went all the way to the back of the pack and simply cruised while contemplating pulling into the pits & hoping for the red flag. This isn't me hating on Lorenzo, I'm just pointing out a major hole in his game that he doesn't seem to want to address. I don't care either way, if he doesn't want another championship then fine by me. But you're a Lorenzo fan, so perhaps you should care. Your denial (and his) isn't going to help him gain confidence in the wet. Have to admit there is a problem in order to fix the problem.
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You're a big man, #22.
You need to check the stats that WE ALL can see, moto vudu, before making certain statements, like MM's top speed. He was TWELVE in that race with top speed - repeat number 12!
Top speeds for the stupid Italian race.
You need to check the stats that WE ALL can see, moto vudu, before making certain statements, like MM's top speed. He was TWELVE in that race with top speed - repeat number 12!
Top speeds for the stupid Italian race.
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You're right, I didn't check the top speed stats. Considering he was struggling to accelerate onto the straight, it makes sense his top speed was down even though the motor was strong and acceleration good once the tire hooked up. Still doesn't change my opinion that his bike was better than the others apart from Lorenzo's M1. There's not many riders that wouldn't change positions with Marquez and be the lead rider for HRC.
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Oh the irony. I have in the past openly admitted, as has the man himself, that he didn't take too many risks in Assen 2016 and that since his accident there 4 years ago, he has ridden poorly in wet/mioxed conditions. But once again you are so hung up on that, that you have failed, despite countless posts, to acknowledge the same of Rossi at times on the Ducati. Simply citing "He tried harder than Lorenzo at Assen" I've admitted it, I bet you now won't do the same for your guy.
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Because comparing Lorenzo at Assen 2016 to Rossi's 2 years at Ducati is terribly flawed. Rossi did put for a lot of effort at Ducati, I don't know how anyone could deny that. However, after all his effort failed to improve his results he stopped risking a lot to pick up a 7th, 6th, or 5th position when in the grand scheme those positions didn't matter to him. He never completely gave up on racing, he just started to preserve his body when he decided he was going to leave Ducati. Again, he never cruised around at the back of the pack (any rider that chooses to purposely drop out of points earning positions should never have lined up on the grid).
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Riding around in last place for a short time in horrible conditions during 2016(with the regulations) on tyres you can't get any feeling from with your style isn't as bad as being beaten across the line on CRT bikes on a full factory bike. Don't let that distract you from the fact Lorenzo ended up finishing in the top 10.
But the Ducati was a race winning bike and Rossi is GOAT of feedback and development. I don't understand why the Ducati turned to such ....... when the 'GOAT' came. All Stoner had to do was try harder to win the championship on the bike and he would've. Interesting you blame Ducati for Rossis epic failure but it's totally Marquezs fault the Honda has struggled for the last couple of years despite a huge amount of evidence from world champions that Honda pay more attention to their engineers than their riders.
Interesting you mention 'when Rossi decided to leave Ducati' as a defence but make no mention that by Assen Lorenzo had already decided to leave Yamaha.
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