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Keshav · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
The guy has one premier class win, and is no doubt going to add to this.

But you're missing the point as usual.

You have a triple world champion who with his other two titles has five titles total, all of which were achieved when he was 23. He's two years older than Vinales, yet his overall record pretty much ..... on Vinales. MM won a world title riding an okay bike last season, but nothing in line with the Honda worldbeaters of the past. He's more talented than Vinales is on his best day, and he's the only rider on the grid you can seriously say could win the world title on almost any one of the factory bikes minus the Aprilia and KTM.

So do tell me, why is Vinales worthy of the hype he is currently receiving when the defending champion is easily the most talented rider currently in grand prix motorcycle racing?

You're newer to the whole racing thing, and I along with others here have watched many racers who were as hyped up as Vinales currently is, ultimately fail to deliver on all of the hype. Try not to forget about the unfortunate case of Marco Melandri 10 years ago. While his troubles all had to do with the Ducati GP08, it's a reminder that hype doesn't always pan out for various reasons --some of which are due to other elements than just talent-- and remember, Marco had more wins than Vinales did on a satellite bike no less prior to suiting up for Ducati.

There's nothing more that I abhor than the hype about riders who while talented, are not in possession of any serious body of work that accords...no, demands respect. Vinales is not there yet, and he being talented means .... all. Most everyone on that grid is talented, so Maverick being talented means nothing. As I already stated, he's not an alien even though the hangers-on in the paddock would spin tales of him descending from a spaceship to grace us mortals with his ability.

I have no issue according him respect, but respect must be earned.

And for a guy who routinely .... on Lorenzo for some of the dumbest nonsensical reasons, you whining about this is laughable.

I get where you're coming from - but Vinales 2016 season was mighty impressive. Much more than Stoner's 2006 season - and what a shock people got when he thrashed everyone on the Duc.

As I said - I don't anticipate Vinales stealing Marquez's lunch (this year) - but he really did have a stellar year in 2016 and can only get better with his now superior bike and crew. Marquez - rides like a god, no doubt - but that doesn't (IMHO) make Vinales any less impressive. I expect that the Yamaha will suit him and his riding style which is less dependent on having the perfect tire.

Iamapony · Mar 13, 2017

moto vudu said:
You seem to have misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that MM is currently hype, just that at the time he got his factory Honda it was based on his hype because he had no GP experience. MV has performed well at the GP level on a developing Suzuki... that isn't hype. MM got a championship capable bike right from the start, MV just now got one so the MV vs MM comparison should start now.

JPS said plenty, but I will add the following.
I understood what you meant and said to look at his record. He was much better than his Moto2 competition. He had a large number of wins. I would have moved him to MotoGP a year earlier, if it was legal. HRC and Repsol are smarter than me, obviously. He was under contract already to HRC. He proved that it was not hype and they were right by winning the MotoGP championship his first year. Almost unheard of, right? The next year he annihilates the field. Proving AGAIN, that is was not hype. The kid was worth the investment. He is a rare one, for sure. I hope he sticks around for awhile.

JPSLotus · Mar 13, 2017

Keshav said:
I get where you're coming from - but Vinales 2016 season was mighty impressive. Much more than Stoner's 2006 season - and what a shock people got when he thrashed everyone on the Duc.

As I said - I don't anticipate Vinales stealing Marquez's lunch (this year) - but he really did have a stellar year in 2016 and can only get better with his now superior bike and crew. Marquez - rides like a god, no doubt - but that doesn't (IMHO) make Vinales any less impressive. I expect that the Yamaha will suit him and his riding style which is less dependent on having the perfect tire.

Stoner was on a 990cc satellite bike in 2006 receiving mismatched tires after the top teams received their allocations, in the middle of a tire war. Vinales was on a 1000cc factory machine in an era with a spec ECU and one tire manufacturer. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Vinales should have done what he did as he was competing under much different, and dare I say far more favorable circumstances than Stoner was. Stoner remains the greatest talent of the past 15 years, yet was not Ducati's number one choice for 2007. His father was the only one on the planet who thought Casey could do something special given how Ducati was more than happy with the win bonus clause in the contract that they no doubt expected not to ever have to pay out.

It's a given Vinales is talented. I just dispute the current HYPE because while talented, he has no large body of work that indicates the hype is justified yet. He wins a world title this year or even in 2018, then this is a completely different conversation because we're not having it again. But as it stands on March 13, 2017, we have not even run the first race of the year. We have testing times and that's it. It's the media doing their usual ........, but this is also partially aided by professional water-fetchers who operate under the guise of calling themselves "journalists"...and the fans are mostly unable to even rationally think about this.

What happens if Vinales crashes and burns at Yamaha for whatever reasons they might be? I'm not saying he will, or that I believe such a thing will happen. Yet if it did, everyone who's been riding the Vinales hype train, will they be issuing mea culpas regarding their incorrect assertions?

I will say I'm not convinced at this time that things are going to be harmonious in that garage once we have some real results, and how is Vinales going to handle that should the garage allegiances start shifting to the other side? All unknowns right now, but that is a very real scenario that we could see unfold.

If he wins right of the gate at Losail, then good on him and I will have no issue with this. But unlike the premature ejaculators around here, I prefer to blow my load once I'm balls deep rather than outside the entrance.

p4p1 · Mar 13, 2017

I'm still on the fence about him. I don't think his race craft is up to beating the likes of Marquez and Rossi consistently over the season. Both guys are capable of outracing him while being slower.

aaronl · Mar 13, 2017

yes in traffic it will be good to see Vinales race.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Rossi mentor (tow) Vinales around and vice versa, through the season.

The master and the apprentice etc, we could still then spin yarns of Rossi's greatness lent to his younger understudy. End of 2018, seats are up for grabs and Rossi bows out gracefully, having generously passed on the skills of his trade.

Keshav · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Stoner was on a 990cc satellite bike in 2006 receiving mismatched tires after the top teams received their allocations, in the middle of a tire war. Vinales was on a 1000cc factory machine in an era with a spec ECU and one tire manufacturer. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Vinales should have done what he did as he was competing under much different, and dare I say far more favorable circumstances than Stoner was. Stoner remains the greatest talent of the past 15 years, yet was not Ducati's number one choice for 2007. His father was the only one on the planet who thought Casey could do something special given how Ducati was more than happy with the win bonus clause in the contract that they no doubt expected not to ever have to pay out.

It's a given Vinales is talented. I just dispute the current HYPE because while talented, he has no large body of work that indicates the hype is justified yet. He wins a world title this year or even in 2018, then this is a completely different conversation because we're not having it again. But as it stands on March 13, 2017, we have not even run the first race of the year. We have testing times and that's it. It's the media doing their usual ........, but this is also partially aided by professional water-fetchers who operate under the guise of calling themselves "journalists"...and the fans are mostly unable to even rationally think about this.

What happens if Vinales crashes and burns at Yamaha for whatever reasons they might be? I'm not saying he will, or that I believe such a thing will happen. Yet if it did, everyone who's been riding the Vinales hype train, will they be issuing mea culpas regarding their incorrect assertions?

I will say I'm not convinced at this time that things are going to be harmonious in that garage once we have some real results, and how is Vinales going to handle that should the garage allegiances start shifting to the other side? All unknowns right now, but that is a very real scenario that we could see unfold.

If he wins right of the gate at Losail, then good on him and I will have no issue with this. But unlike the premature ejaculators around here, I prefer to blow my load once I'm balls deep rather than outside the entrance.

Good points all around. Hard to make make a precise comparison between Stoner's Honda and Vinales' Suzuki. The Honda while not comparable to the Repsol bikes that year - was still the product from the guys who outspend everybody and was refined over numerous iterations while the Suzuki was a relatively new design that still has a way to go - not to mention being underpowered.

I don't expect Vinales to be the next Stoner. But then again, a lot of people were dubious about the hype re: Marquez when he was riding the 600s. Let's just say I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised should he does well.

AJV80 · Mar 13, 2017

Iamapony said:
Except that Ducati says they are adjusting for him. They have made the investment and expect him to win. Apparently they have learned from past mistakes. We shall see. I believe it, because of your other points. If Lorenzo was really struggling with the bike, he would be in the teens, not fourth in combined times.

I have no doubt they will develop their bike around Jorge as most factory teams do and he will get stronger and stronger as time goes on. I think he will do really well and get results but don't think it will happen immediately in the way Vinales seems to have adapted to the Yamaha almost instantly. Admittedly the Suzuki with its inline 4 config is probably the most similar to the Yamaha. The difference between the V4 Ducati compared to the Yamaha is more vast.

moto vudu · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
The guy has one premier class win, and is no doubt going to add to this.

But you're missing the point as usual.

You have a triple world champion who with his other two titles has five titles total, all of which were achieved when he was 23. He's two years older than Vinales, yet his overall record pretty much ..... on Vinales. MM won a world title riding an okay bike last season, but nothing in line with the Honda worldbeaters of the past. He's more talented than Vinales is on his best day, and he's the only rider on the grid you can seriously say could win the world title on almost any one of the factory bikes minus the Aprilia and KTM.

So do tell me, why is Vinales worthy of the hype he is currently receiving when the defending champion is easily the most talented rider currently in grand prix motorcycle racing?

You're newer to the whole racing thing, and I along with others here have watched many racers who were as hyped up as Vinales currently is, ultimately fail to deliver on all of the hype. Try not to forget about the unfortunate case of Marco Melandri 10 years ago. While his troubles all had to do with the Ducati GP08, it's a reminder that hype doesn't always pan out for various reasons --some of which are due to other elements than just talent-- and remember, Marco had more wins than Vinales did on a satellite bike no less prior to suiting up for Ducati.

There's nothing more that I abhor than the hype about riders who while talented, are not in possession of any serious body of work that accords...no, demands respect. Vinales is not there yet, and he being talented means .... all. Most everyone on that grid is talented, so Maverick being talented means nothing. As I already stated, he's not an alien even though the hangers-on in the paddock would spin tales of him descending from a spaceship to grace us mortals with his ability.

I have no issue according him respect, but respect must be earned.

And for a guy who routinely .... on Lorenzo for some of the dumbest nonsensical reasons, you whining about this is laughable.

Marquez has 3 titles with the biggest and most influential team in the paddock. You're comparing what Marquez has done with HRC to what Vinales did while at Suzuki who returned to GP racing starting from scratch. Yet, you give Marquez' talent all the credit but claimed if Vinales improves on the Yamaha it's more because of the bike and not his talent. You're showing major bias against Vinales. Given what Vinales had to work with as a GP rookie, I'd say he exceeded expectations. A top factory bike wasn't simply given to Vinales like it was to Marquez. Sure, Marquez did great in Moto2 while quickly earning the reputation as one of the most dangerous riders to ever pass through the class.

It remains to be seen if Marquez is more talented than Vinales because the two of them have not been competing on a level playing field. The field just became more even now that Vinales has a bike that should be capable of a championship.

I didn't .... on Lorenzo for any BS reasons. It's a fact he that he rode around at the back of the grid at Assen because it was raining.

JPSLotus · Mar 13, 2017

moto vudu said:
Marquez has 3 titles with the biggest and most influential team in the paddock. You're comparing what Marquez has done with HRC to what Vinales did while at Suzuki who returned to GP racing starting from scratch. Yet, you give Marquez' talent all the credit but claimed if Vinales improves on the Yamaha it's more because of the bike and not his talent. You're showing major bias against Vinales. Given what Vinales had to work with as a GP rookie, I'd say he exceeded expectations. A top factory bike wasn't simply given to Vinales like it was to Marquez. Sure, Marquez did great in Moto2 while quickly earning the reputation as one of the most dangerous riders to ever pass through the class.

It remains to be seen if Marquez is more talented than Vinales because the two of them have not been competing on a level playing field. The field just became more even now that Vinales has a bike that should be capable of a championship.

I didn't .... on Lorenzo for any BS reasons. It's a fact he that he rode around at the back of the grid at Assen because it was raining.

Marquez did not win the 2013 or 2016 title as near decisively as the one he he took in 2014. If Lorenzo never breaks his collarbone in Assen, that title battle might have turned out differently. But more importantly, the bike he has ridden the past two years no longer looks like the bikes that Stoner rode in 2011 and 2012. They have more in common with the Ducati 800 of 2007 and 2008. Not quite as bad, but enough that it looked like Honda lost the plot big time, and we're in the third straight year of not knowing quite what Honda has brought this year.

Suzuki returned to a very favorable suite of technical regulations, in fact the spec ECU had a lot to do with their return. The problem they had during the 800cc era was they couldn't match the ECU know-how that Honda and Yamaha were sporting. That advantage in electronics is what had that entire formula get the hook due to the astronomical costs in play.

For Maverick to come in on a top team now would have required him to offer something better than one of their factory riders. That wasn't the case. Marquez coming in without Stoner retiring would have seen Pedrosa get the heave-ho. Marquez was such a certain bet to Honda that they would have dumped Pedrosa. Vinales was such a certain bet that Yamaha didn't punt Rossi for him 2 years ago.

The real test of talent is what you do on unfavorable machines. After all, we know just how exceptional Stoner's talent was because of what he did on the Desmosedici every year. Marquez already showed this in 2016 by winning with a bike that at the start of the season was easily looking like the worst bike Honda had designed since the first RC212V. Vinales had a good opportunity to do that with the GSX-RR last year and only mustered up one win. Let me know when Vinales rides a less than ideal bike to a title.

Yes you .... on Lorenzo for BS reasons. You never questioned Rossi admitting he wasn't trying on the Ducati for two years, but Lorenzo you question his effort when he said he had zero feel from the bike.

JPSLotus · Mar 13, 2017

Keshav said:
Good points all around. Hard to make make a precise comparison between Stoner's Honda and Vinales' Suzuki. The Honda while not comparable to the Repsol bikes that year - was still the product from the guys who outspend everybody and was refined over numerous iterations while the Suzuki was a relatively new design that still has a way to go - not to mention being underpowered.

I don't expect Vinales to be the next Stoner. But then again, a lot of people were dubious about the hype re: Marquez when he was riding the 600s. Let's just say I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised should he does well.

Certainly in the case of the RCV of 2006, but having to run mismatched tires negates many of those favorable characteristics. And we often see satellite machines unable to match the factory efforts because the factory isn't setting the bikes up. Had Stoner been competing in 2006 with today's set of rules in play and no Saturday Night Specials, he would have won a race in his debut season IMO.

As long as we have competitive races at the end of the day, I'll be pleased with this upcoming season. I'd hate to see the top two factories figure everything out and turn it into another few years of Honda-Yamaha contests.

moto vudu · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Marquez did not win the 2013 or 2016 title as near decisively as the one he he took in 2014. If Lorenzo never breaks his collarbone in Assen, that title battle might have turned out differently. But more importantly, the bike he has ridden the past two years no longer looks like the bikes that Stoner rode in 2011 and 2012. They have more in common with the Ducati 800 of 2007 and 2008. Not quite as bad, but enough that it looked like Honda lost the plot big time, and we're in the third straight year of not knowing quite what Honda has brought this year.

Suzuki returned to a very favorable suite of technical regulations, in fact the spec ECU had a lot to do with their return. The problem they had during the 800cc era was they couldn't match the ECU know-how that Honda and Yamaha were sporting. That advantage in electronics is what had that entire formula get the hook due to the astronomical costs in play.

For Maverick to come in on a top team now would have required him to offer something better than one of their factory riders. That wasn't the case. Marquez coming in without Stoner retiring would have seen Pedrosa get the heave-ho. Marquez was such a certain bet to Honda that they would have dumped Pedrosa. Vinales was such a certain bet that Yamaha didn't punt Rossi for him 2 years ago.

The real test of talent is what you do on unfavorable machines. After all, we know just how exceptional Stoner's talent was because of what he did on the Desmosedici every year. Marquez already showed this in 2016 by winning with a bike that at the start of the season was easily looking like the worst bike Honda had designed since the first RC212V. Vinales had a good opportunity to do that with the GSX-RR last year and only mustered up one win. Let me know when Vinales rides a less than ideal bike to a title.

Yes you .... on Lorenzo for BS reasons. You never questioned Rossi admitting he wasn't trying on the Ducati for two years, but Lorenzo you question his effort when he said he had zero feel from the bike.

The RCV at its worst is still a factory Honda and a better bike than the 2016 GSX-RR. Also, the RCV is being developed for Marquez so if he has an issue with it he should be more careful about what development feedback he's giving his engineers. Marquez has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike.

Rossi never rode around in last place on the Ducati so even on his worst day he put forth more effort than Lorenzo did at Assen.

michaelm · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Certainly in the case of the RCV of 2006, but having to run mismatched tires negates many of those favorable characteristics. And we often see satellite machines unable to match the factory efforts because the factory isn't setting the bikes up. Had Stoner been competing in 2006 with today's set of rules in play and no Saturday Night Specials, he would have won a race in his debut season IMO.

As long as we have competitive races at the end of the day, I'll be pleased with this upcoming season. I'd hate to see the top two factories figure everything out and turn it into another few years of Honda-Yamaha contests.

My reservations about Vinales are the same as yours, whether he can actually race in traffic/set up and make decisive passing moves, and whether he can maintain his pace over full race distance. In regard to the latter this could have been related to the interaction of the Suzuki and Michelin's rather experimental tyres last year, and in relation to the former he is young and may be capable of further developing his riding. We shall see I guess.

In regard to Stoner's rookie year I agree (predictably I guess MV would say), the respective rookie seasons are not comparable, it was LCR's rookie year as well in 2007, as opposed to Suzuki's long tradition in the sport and the experience of the likes of Brivio last year, it was the SNS tyre era and Stoner actually didn't even get the second rate Michelins, but rather the third rate ones, there were no concessions for the less well performed teams, he was not allowed to set the bike up to his own preference etc etc, and he still missed out on winning a race by a wheel or less.

JPSLotus · Mar 13, 2017

moto vudu said:
The RCV at its worst is still a factory Honda and a better bike than the 2016 GSX-RR. Also, the RCV is being developed for Marquez so if he has an issue with it he should be more careful about what development feedback he's giving his engineers. Marquez has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike.

Rossi never rode around in last place on the Ducati so even on his worst day he put forth more effort than Lorenzo did at Assen.

But how can you say it's a better bike than the 2016 GSX-RR?

Saying he should just be careful about what feedback he gives engineers is a highly simplistic thought process and doesn't take into account reality.

Saying MM has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike is not a remotely accurate statement, and is more of the typical ill-thought drivel you became noted for around here. You must not actually watch much racing if you can make that statement straight-faced. The 2015 incarnation of the RC213V was the worst Honda factory entry since the initial 800cc challenger. 2016 was marginally better, but by all accounts was a handful to ride.

Actually, your entire point of contention was that Lorenzo doesn't try in the rain, but you've lacked consistency on this subject due to your refusal to call out your yellow clad god for openly admitting he wasn't trying. Your inability to be consistent on this issue exposes your blatant bias and subjective reading of reality.

moto vudu · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
But how can you say it's a better bike than the 2016 GSX-RR?

Saying he should just be careful about what feedback he gives engineers is a highly simplistic thought process and doesn't take into account reality.

Saying MM has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike is not a remotely accurate statement, and is more of the typical ill-thought drivel you became noted for around here. You must not actually watch much racing if you can make that statement straight-faced. The 2015 incarnation of the RC213V was the worst Honda factory entry since the initial 800cc challenger. 2016 was marginally better, but by all accounts was a handful to ride.

Actually, your entire point of contention was that Lorenzo doesn't try in the rain, but you've lacked consistency on this subject due to your refusal to call out your yellow clad god for openly admitting he wasn't trying. Your inability to be consistent on this issue exposes your blatant bias and subjective reading of reality.

The 2016 RCV was a better bike than the GSX-RR. HRC had put all their eggs in the Marquez basket... they don't care if all the other Honda riders struggle as long as Marquez is still able to win. Even with their acceleration woes (Marquez chose that engine & chassis during 2015 post season testing) the bike was highly capable for its intended rider.

Marquez has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike. The Repsol Honda is ALWAYS a top machine in the series. You're trying to make it seem like Marquez had to struggle on a second-hand bike with limited factory support. He has had the best team and best equipment at his disposal his entire GP career. Any problems with Marc's bike is a temporary annoyance while other riders have dealt with poor equipment & support their entire career!

Rossi could SAY he wasn't trying, but if he wasn't riding in last place he WAS obviously trying harder than Lorenzo. You cannot win this argument because you'll never find any example of Rossi riding parade laps during a race like Lorenzo did.

JPSLotus · Mar 13, 2017

michaelm said:
My reservations about Vinales are the same as yours, whether he can actually race in traffic/set up and make decisive passing moves, and whether he can maintain his pace over full race distance. In regard to the latter this could have been related to the interaction of the Suzuki and Michelins rather experimental tyres last year, and in relation to the former he is young and may be capable of further developing his riding. We shall see I guess.

In regard to Stoner's rookie year I agree (predictably I guess MV would say), the respective rookie seasons are not comparable, it was LCR's rookie year as well as opposed to Suzuki's long tradition in the sport and the experience of the likes of Brivio, it was the SNS tyre era and Stoner actually didn't even get the second rate Michelins, but rather the third rate ones, there were no concessions for the less well performed teams, he was not allowed to set the bike up to his own preference etc etc, and he stillmissed out on winning a race by a wheel or less.

The rookie seasons are not comparable by any reasonable measure just based on the technical restrictions without even getting into the special tiered tire batches that existed 11 years ago. Stoner being familiar with tire mismatches talked about the Michelin front and rears not matching profiles last season. You're unlikely to ever hear Maverick discuss that in his career because I do not envision Dorna ever allowing that kind of tire war to be revisited as long as they own the commercial rights to GP.

Vinales certainly has time to improve his overall racecraft, but IMO, he has a small window to do this as most of his habits are ingrained in him by this point of his career. Seems odd to say that about a rider who is only 22 years old, but I'm very much a believer who you are as a racer is pretty much locked in by that point....which made Marquez's resurgence in 2016 all the more impressive as he was able to dial down his natural tendencies, when he to that point had never showed he was capable of doing that. It's part maturity, but it's also a sign of high race IQ to be able to tamper down that tendency. If Vinales is going to have the chops to really race his fellow competitors, it's going to have to be apparent this year. I wonder how Vinales could have handled riding against Kevin Schwantz or Michael Doohan who both gave no quarter on the circuit.

#22 · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Had Stoner been competing in 2006 with today's set of rules in play and no Saturday Night Specials, he would have won a race in his debut season IMO.

He very nearly did, he led into the final corner in Turkey if you recall.

moto vudu said:
Also, the RCV is being developed for Marquez so if he has an issue with it he should be more careful about what development feedback he's giving his engineers.

Agreed

Rossi never rode around in last place on the Ducati so even on his worst day he put forth more effort than Lorenzo did at Assen.

Disagree. Positions aren't always a reflection of effort. You seem unable to be objective and admit that, by your own argument, if Lorenzo didn't put in any effort at Assen, then Rossi only finishing 7 seconds from last place in Indy 2011, Assen 2012 where he only beat James Ellison on the PBR bike, or Valencia 2012 where he finished behind the same POS bike (and even got beaten by Petruci on the IODA) were a similar lack of effort. In fact in 2012, there was no excuse for a factory MotoGP bike getting beaten by a CRT bike.

moto vudu · Mar 13, 2017

#22 said:
He very nearly did, he led into the final corner in Turkey if you recall.

Agreed

Disagree. Positions aren't always a reflection of effort. You seem unable to be objective and admit that, by your own argument, if Lorenzo didn't put in any effort at Assen, then Rossi only finishing 7 seconds from last place in Indy 2011, Assen 2012 where he only beat James Ellison on the PBR bike, or Valencia 2012 where he finished behind the same POS bike (and even got beaten by Petruci on the IODA) were a similar lack of effort. In fact in 2012, there was no excuse for a factory MotoGP bike getting beaten by a CRT bike.

I agree that positions aren't always a reflection of effort, but in this case (Assen 2016) it is. The few times the camera cut to Lorenzo he wasn't even bothering to tuck behind the windscreen... he was sitting up riding like he was on his way to Starbucks. Lorenzo did not want to be on the bike in those conditions and even admitted he wanted to pit.

JPSLotus · Mar 13, 2017

moto vudu said:
The 2016 RCV was a better bike than the GSX-RR. HRC had put all their eggs in the Marquez basket... they don't care if all the other Honda riders struggle as long as Marquez is still able to win. Even with their acceleration woes (Marquez chose that engine & chassis during 2015 post season testing) the bike was highly capable for its intended rider.

Marquez has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike. The Repsol Honda RCV is ALWAYS a top machine in the series. You're trying to make it seem like Marquez had to struggle on a second-hand bike with limited factory support. He has had the best team and best equipment at his disposal his entire GP career. Sure, the RCV had some acceleration woes last year... it was a temporary problem for Marquez while other riders have dealt with such problems their entire career!

Rossi could SAY he wasn't trying, but if he wasn't riding in last place he WAS obviously trying harder than Lorenzo. You cannot win this argument because you'll never find any example of Rossi riding parade laps during a race like Lorenzo did.

Again, why was the RCV a better bike. You haven't stated anything supporting that.

I never said he was on something like a struggling second-hand bike, but as I stated, all accounts were that it's been the most difficult bike to ride on the grid past couple of seasons. Or are you disputing that? What about his own teammate that happened to strike gold on a few occasions over 2 years, but talked about difficult the bike was to ride and had people talking about how far he had dropped since the halcyon days of 2011 and 2012 when a world title seemed to be there for the taking?

Honda designed the engine to be a peaky engine that was to be tamed by way of electronics, something they had excelled at doing for years, only to be caught out by the spec ECU which by all accounts they never fully came to grips with in 2016. This isn't like the old days where a factory truly had to get the engine design right before the season started because there were no quick fixes to be had via electronics. Without Marquez, Honda would have had 1 race victory in 2016. He remains the sole reason Honda has even seen the number of podiums they have. And for you to say the problems they had with acceleration were temporary is the indication of someone woefully out of touch with where the bike was at even in the final 1/4 of the season. They managed to improve things yes, but they never fixed the problems completely.

So Vudu, direct me to the proof that Lorenzo wasn't trying? Do you think of a rider doesn't have feeling in their tires that they should push till they crash just so you will be satisfied with their effort? I don't need to win the argument as you've already taken a position that cannot be validated by fact...and is only validated by your wishful thinking that at it's core is nothing more than your usual ignorance.

JPSLotus · Mar 13, 2017

#22 said:
He very nearly did, he led into the final corner in Turkey if you recall.

Agreed

Disagree. Positions aren't always a reflection of effort. You seem unable to be objective and admit that, by your own argument, if Lorenzo didn't put in any effort at Assen, then Rossi only finishing 7 seconds from last place in Indy 2011, Assen 2012 where he only beat James Ellison on the PBR bike, or Valencia 2012 where he finished behind the same POS bike (and even got beaten by Petruci on the IODA) were a similar lack of effort. In fact in 2012, there was no excuse for a factory MotoGP bike getting beaten by a CRT bike.

Regarding your 'Agreed' comment to Vudu, Honda's engineers are notorious for doing what they want if no one is there to stop them. It's part of the reason their F1 engine project has turned into the shitshow it currently is. It was the same mentality that existed in 1990/1991 when their answer to improving their V10 was to design a V12, and then to stick with said V12 for 1992 when it was more than apparent to most partial observers that the heavy, gas guzzling V12's were no match for the lighter, more fuel efficient Renault Sport V10's of that era. Honda has always been unreceptive to feedback of varying degrees over the years and it was one of the major factors in Stoner packing up and heading to Ducati to test. Don't lower yourself to Vudu's level by not thinking. We think more highly of you around here.

#22 · Mar 13, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Regarding your 'Agreed' comment to Vudu, Honda's engineers are notorious for doing what they want if no one is there to stop them. It's part of the reason their F1 engine project has turned into the shitshow it currently is. It was the same mentality that existed in 1990/1991 when their answer to improving their V10 was to design a V12, and then to stick with said V12 for 1992 when it was more than apparent to most partial observers that the heavy, gas guzzling V12's were no match for the lighter, more fuel efficient Renault Sport V10's of that era. Honda has always been unreceptive to feedback of varying degrees over the years and it was one of the major factors in Stoner packing up and heading to Ducati to test. Don't lower yourself to Vudu's level by not thinking. We think more highly of you around here.

I don't deny that, but it was also well reported that at the end of 2013 Marquez had asked for more power from Honda, so that can't have helped. Honda's philosophy of they know best has bitten them in the arse on more than one occasion as you have noted.

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